KROQ's decline, Latino's rise?

[davideduardo]

Re: KIIS lost to Latino, not Jack

> I notice you don't mention KKBT. While they don't have the
> Hispanic comp that KDAY or KPWR has - KKBT is a P2 for a lot
> of hip-hop listeners - including Hispanics - so you would
> expect them to lose some of their Hispanic TSL (they also
> had a dreadful June - although it seemed more like it was
> due more to the change in mornings and diary returns).

Hispanics who like reggaetón, almost without exception do not like r^b so the KXOL impact on The Beat is probably zero or less.
>
> I think KKBT stands to lose something there.

In Houston, with now about 9 months of a reggaetón station, Party,w hich is Hispanci Hip hop, took a ding... KRBE, CHR, was significantly impacted, and The Boxx, which is hip hop and R&B, was not touched.

 

[davideduardo]

>
> I agree that La Kalle is a better moniker. It gives the
> station more leeway musically, is not off-putting to
> non-Latinos who might enjoy the station, and it speaks to
> what the music and the station are supposed to be about.

There will not be any non-Hispanic listeners. The format is as Hispanic as regional Mexican.
> Nevertheless, some of the posters had
> a valid question: why does a station that calls itself
> “Latino” and whose motto is “Latino and Proud” play music by
> non-Latinos? Also, if the emphasis of the station is on its
> “Latino-ness” then why only focus on hip-hop and reggaeton
> and ignore other genres that proud Latinos like – banda,
> cumbia, salsa, merengue, etc.? Especially when hip-hop is
> not a genre born out of Latino culture. Even reggaeton’s
> existence has as much to do with West Indian/Afro-Carribbean
> influence as it does with any Hispanic influence. In other
> words, hip-hop and reggaeton aren’t the most “Latino” genres
> one can find. (Japanese people might play/sing mariachi
> music, but that doesn't make the music "Japanese").

Salsa was born in NY of Latino musicians and Black jazzmen. It is still 100% Latino music. Reggaetón may have influences, but so does every music form.
>
> KXOL has positioned itself into a corner IMO. So far it
> works but whether it does in the long-term remains to be
> seen. Either way and if necessary, KIIS and Power can
> effectively respond by essentially taking up the “no color
> lines” mantle dropped by The Beat.

The problem is that no other station can be bilingual. Bilingualism is the halmark of the reggaetón listener.

> Not necessarily the
> slogan, but the spirit – a station for everybody which in
> this market includes a large number of Latinos. This can be
> reflected in on-air presentation, playlist, DJ line-up,
> street promotions, etc. – obviously, more so than they are
> currently doing.

It's a 12-34 year old station for bilingual Hispanics. they are playing the music that a huge proportion of this group likes. They don't like regional Mexican, most hate pop in Spanish, rock in Spanish is a chimera, and there are no other valid formats.
>
> KIIS and Power can incorporate Latin hip-hop and reggaeton
> in addition to English pop/R&B by Latino artists without
> contradicting their positionings.

And they will alienate the non-hipanic listeners... more than half in the case of KIIS and 45% in the case of Power.

> I do get an 80s Freestyle vibe from reggaeton. One
> similarity is that the genre is too married to a particular
> beat. Another is the limited regional and ethnic appeal,
> broken only when the music is aborbed and/or crosses over.

It is only supposed to appeal to young Hispanics, which it does from Argentina to Mexioc, from Chile to the Dominican Republic.

>
> On their side, KIIS and Power have heritage, musical leeway,
> and broader appeal. Many Latino adults will not even
> consider a steady diet of hip-hop and reggaeton. For Latino
> youth who don’t fluently speak or understand Spanish,
> listening to music that you don’t comprehend the lyrics to
> might get tiring.

How do you expalin Top rated pop staitons in Latin America that play a huge percentage of English language pop and rock, even though nobody understands the lyrics? Or Tejano stations like KXTN... all English jocks, all SPanish msuic, despite the fact taht most listenrs do not speak Spanish well.

In the Southwest, in most cities, about 70% of Hispanics are Spanish dominant or bilingual. There is plenty of audience... that is over 3.4 million in LA alone.

> For some, the monotony will wear thin. I
> listened to the station for about 2 weeks but couldn’t take
> it after that; funny enough, it was the English hip-hop
> mixed in that made it bearable. Either way, I expect decent
> Summer numbers for 96.3 mainly from a segment of young
> Latinos. After that, we’ll see.

A similar format in Puerto Rico has been top 5 for 6 years. The music is growing fast, and has displaced all other Spanish genres in sales.

 

[creativegenius]

Re: Not whining about Indie?

I agree with the above posts. The simple reality is that Indie has had the BEST ratings on that dial in over a decade. Yes, Mr. Moderator, that is an accomplishment on such a terrible signal. Yes, it should be a point that all here should be well taken. This signal and it's format circus has been a center of debate, so why should the success not be debated and validated as well? It is a FACT the station still holds it's spot load and continues to air NATIONAL ads that cannot be by, stretch of some fantasy posters "trade spots".

C'mon guys. Geez. Get real. ALL the spots on the station are for HIGH end retailers and alike, they have NO JUNK SPOTS that plagued the station for nearly 15 years.

Entravision is doing something right. It's obvious that the success of the formats gets the ire of Mr. Eduardo for some strange reason. How expects the 1031 signal to make 20 million? Nobody. Who expects the 1031 signal to make $20 million as an ethnic format? Nobody. Entravision tried it with it's Estrella simulcast, and it did not work.


I mentioned previously that the 1031 signal did manage to make over a Million a month with the JAZZ format and I have the financials to prove it.
Indie's niche could be billing just that. Since Mr. Richards allows Mr. Eduardo carte blanche in terms of his "facts" then please allow others the same respect. Since no one, including the moderator, has posted any real HARD facts about Indies financial picture and it's advertising sources for it's national business, all I have heard to date here is negative speculation, funny that when the negative speculation goes against Mr. Eduardo or Richards, an attack immediately insues, why is that?

Clearly, on many levels substainated by published statistics, Indie is doing very very well for it's limitations, the best ANY format has done on that signal. Yes, that is well worth acknowlegment and debate. It is about time someone do something right and noteworthy on that signal for petes sake.

I have also noted that moving this format to a station like STAR could be a big winner for Clear Channel, and I totally dispute innwabon's remarks to the opposite. If Indie is garnering a 1-1.4 share on this crap signal, it would without question gain a 2 share or more on a full range signal dropping KROQ down to a 2 share as well.. I am marketing exec and also stand by my statistics that show San Diego alternative market to be the sister to the LA market, and I have research facts to back it up thank you.

91x is sinking and floundering because 94.9 is killing them, that is a fact.

 

[KMRichards]

Re: Not whining about Indie?

> It is a FACT
> the station still holds it's spot load and continues to air
> NATIONAL ads that cannot be by, stretch of some fantasy
> posters "trade spots".
>
> C'mon guys. Geez. Get real. ALL the spots on the station
> are for HIGH end retailers and alike, they have NO JUNK
> SPOTS that plagued the station for nearly 15 years.
>
> Entravision is doing something right.

I would be interested to hear why you feel Entravision is getting that kind of business. You have to admit it's unusual for a station without a full-market signal and ratings to match to have "high end" advertisers and national business.

If Indie is getting this business by having a bargain basement rate card, then the previously expressed concerns over low ROI may still be valid. So I honestly want to know what you think.
<P ID="signature">______________


</P>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Not whining about Indie?

> > It is a FACT
> > the station still holds it's spot load and continues to
> air
> > NATIONAL ads that cannot be by, stretch of some fantasy
> > posters "trade spots".
> >
> > C'mon guys. Geez. Get real. ALL the spots on the station
> > are for HIGH end retailers and alike, they have NO JUNK
> > SPOTS that plagued the station for nearly 15 years.
> >
> > Entravision is doing something right.
>
> I would be interested to hear why you feel Entravision is
> getting that kind of business. You have to admit it's
> unusual for a station without a full-market signal and
> ratings to match to have "high end" advertisers and national
> business.

Per BIA, Indie did $2.6 last year. That was with the help of the JSA as Glenn has correctly mentioned. Much of the current national business is spillage from the CCU deal, and may run out. There is not much national buying for stations outside the top 5 to 10 in a demo, and Indie does not come into the money on any. So, the revenue has to be local. And it has to be cheap.
>
> If Indie is getting this business by having a bargain
> basement rate card, then the previously expressed concerns
> over low ROI may still be valid. So I honestly want to know
> what you think.

The prior post indicates a condusion between "making" and "billing." At low billing levels, one has to bill about $10 million to "make" in the $3 to $4.5 million range. everything is more expensive at the bottom as a percentage of billing... and sales costs are higher as there is not the volume to sustain big billing and rewarding income. And, to be a good radio investment, Indie needs to cash flow (EBITDA) around $6 million to $7 million to give a satisfactory ROI.
>

 

[creativegenius]

Re: Not whining about Indie?

This debate seems funny in itself. While Mr. Eduardo seemingly contends that all Indie's spots are 10 cent trade spots and claims that it is impossible for Entravision to have ANY paid national spots on the station is laughable. Since neither of you are in sales at any station in the market that plays alternative, how would any of you know the buying patterns in the english 18-34 demo? You don't. Mr. Eduardo can speculate, and he is certainly good at that. He still has no idea where the ad dollars on KROQ or Indie exactly come from. That is a fact.

You asked me where I believe the spots on Indie are coming from?

Plain and simple. KROQ is SOLD OUT in many key buy times for weeks even months on end. What other male oriented alternative music influenced station is there? NONE. Indie's numbers can easily pick up dollars that buyers NEED to dump in the market, period. Their ratings show they have a consistent following and have a cool factor in the market. Many national advertisers buy on formats associated with lifestyle in key markets. Indie's numbers are not zero's for god sake. Gee, imagine, why aren't yoiu guys pounding on Clear Channel and it's "failure" at STAR, that only garners a 1.9 share consistantly on one of LA metros strongest signals? You consider STAR a market success story? Oh, financially it clearly earns more, well, gee do you think it helps if you are Clear Channel and you OWN the female demo in the market? How would STAR do as a stand alone property? No better than Indie thats how. So let the STAR bashing begin..

BTW, does anyone really think that nearly all of Indies national spot load is some sort of stupid trade? Gee, here's a question, then where is all the tacky local ads?????? So Indie plays trade ads and says "hey fellas, we're sold out, sorry, no room for local ads?? Yeah right. Oh, gee, maybe Indie cant get a dime of local either so they run cheap National trade ads like, Bank of America, Budweiser, Coors, Nissan, Ford, Toyota...

Here's a lesson for you...Listen to the spots on KROQ, 91X, 94.9, and Indie.
Gee, there is something in common in the ads, they are the same! Wow, how bout that? How can that be? According to Mr. Eduardo, who works in spanish radio, says it must be trade. Trade? Since when does radio turn away local ad dollars? KROQ or Indie? They don't.

Oh, BTW, Mr. Eduardo, I love those "Infinity Radio advertising pays" spots promoting their sales departments and salesperson's by name campaign currently running on KNX/KFWB... Gee, could they be STARVING for local ad dollars? What, no national ads on KNX/KFWB? Could it be they are rated in the low 1's in the market? Enough of this Indie's spots are all trade bogus business. I think you mean KDL or Groove. Indie is neither one of those true advertising disasters.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Not whining about Indie?

> This debate seems funny in itself. While Mr. Eduardo
> seemingly contends that all Indie's spots are 10 cent trade
> spots and claims that it is impossible for Entravision to
> have ANY paid national spots on the station is laughable.

I never said either thing. In fact, I never mentioned trade.

National business is almost totally transactional. And the lower a station is rated, the cheaper the CPP must be. You see, agencies pretty much have to buy the biggest stations in a demo to get reach. then, if they had to overpay the CPP, they get cut rates from the smaller stations that they can say, "take it or leave it" to. So the rates on Indie may be in the $50 to $200 range while KROQ is in the $800 to $2000 range.

> Since neither of you are in sales at any station in the
> market that plays alternative, how would any of you know the
> buying patterns in the english 18-34 demo? You don't.

All stations that have any interest in agency business, whether it be local, regional or national, have a variety of sources for data. Their rep firm produces data on all upcoming buys, and they get monitors and billing figures. Except for concerts and related stuff, there is no "alternative" buy. Agencies buy a demo, not a format in most cases. So KROQ generally competes on 25-44 or 18-34 segments of buys, and so does Indie. The difference is that KROQ is pretty much a must buy, and many others are not.

Oh, yeah, I have been GM, Owner, LSM, GSM and DOS for stations, clusters and groups. the fact that I am not pitching today does not mean I do not understand the functions of selling.

> Mr.
> Eduardo can speculate, and he is certainly good at that. He
> still has no idea where the ad dollars on KROQ or Indie
> exactly come from. That is a fact.

Wrong. See above. Everyone in the market can find out where every last spot comes from, and we have very accurate billing data on each station and cluster, too.
>
> You asked me where I believe the spots on Indie are coming
> from?
>
> Plain and simple. KROQ is SOLD OUT in many key buy times
> for weeks even months on end. What other male oriented
> alternative music influenced station is there? NONE.

Rarely does an agency buy only by format. especially a format as loosely defined as alternative. They buy demos, and price by CPP.

Any station that is consistently sold out raises rates. So I have a certain degree of skepticism on KROQ running perpetually sold out. The first thing a sales manager or GM looks at is inventory utilization, and if 70% to 80% of inventory is sold at the right rates, they raise them. In fact, many broadcasters shudder at turning away business, so they price to sell in the 75% of inventory range in key dayparts.


> Indie's
> numbers can easily pick up dollars that buyers NEED to dump
> in the market, period. Their ratings show they have a
> consistent following and have a cool factor in the market.

The numbers do not show how cool a station is. And, again, agencies look at demo composition and other factors, but are not format driven unless the creative was made for one lifestyle.

> Many national advertisers buy on formats associated with
> lifestyle in key markets.

Most don't. And you can get the KROQ lifestyle with a variety of different stations. Lifestyle, I said, not "song list."

> Indie's numbers are not zero's
> for god sake. Gee, imagine, why aren't yoiu guys pounding
> on Clear Channel and it's "failure" at STAR, that only
> garners a 1.9 share consistantly on one of LA metros
> strongest signals?

Actually, Star is the worst B in the market, stuck on Mulholland drive at low height. Nonetheless , it is very efficient in delivering very large shares in 25-34 women, which are its target. Since there are many buys for that demo, they do amazingly well. They are consistently int he top couple of staitons in demo. Indie is not top 10 in any demo.

> You consider STAR a market success story?
> Oh, financially it clearly earns more, well, gee do you
> think it helps if you are Clear Channel and you OWN the
> female demo in the market? How would STAR do as a stand
> alone property?

With 6's in 24-34 women, they would do very well alone. they do better in combo, of course. But they offer a real efficiency by giving one tight demo without spillage.

> No better than Indie thats how. So let the
> STAR bashing begin..

Actually, Indie has no good demo, and has incomplete coverage. Marketers who want to cover all the market can not use it.
>
> BTW, does anyone really think that nearly all of Indies
> national spot load is some sort of stupid trade?

No. Most trade is local, anyhow. You apparently don't understand how time is bought and sold.

> Gee,
> here's a question, then where is all the tacky local
> ads?????? So Indie plays trade ads and says "hey fellas,
> we're sold out, sorry, no room for local ads?? Yeah right.
> Oh, gee, maybe Indie cant get a dime of local either so they
> run cheap National trade ads like, Bank of America,
> Budweiser, Coors, Nissan, Ford, Toyota...

Almost all this is leftover from the olong term business from the JSA.
>
> Here's a lesson for you...Listen to the spots on KROQ, 91X,
> 94.9, and Indie.
> Gee, there is something in common in the ads, they are the
> same! Wow, how bout that? How can that be? According to Mr.
> Eduardo, who works in spanish radio, says it must be trade.
> Trade? Since when does radio turn away local ad dollars?
> KROQ or Indie? They don't.

I never said trade ever. Get the facts right. I said low rates, and mostly local buys.
>
> Oh, BTW, Mr. Eduardo, I love those "Infinity Radio
> advertising pays" spots promoting their sales departments
> and salesperson's by name campaign currently running on
> KNX/KFWB... Gee, could they be STARVING for local ad
> dollars?

Could it be that they found this works, since many decision makers listen to news stations? Even WINS in NY runs these kinds of ads.

> What, no national ads on KNX/KFWB? Could it be they
> are rated in the low 1's in the market?

AM new radio is sold based on reach, not share. One of the few exceptions. It is also sold as foreground radio. And both KFWB and KNX bill in the high $30 million range, while Indie, last year, did less than three million. Bad comparison.

> Enough of this
> Indie's spots are all trade bogus business. I think you
> mean KDL or Groove. Indie is neither one of those true
> advertising disasters.

No, it is probably worse. In any case, Entravision is spinning off stations so don't count on Indie for long... or, at least, don't make any bets based on it.
>

 

[MarcR]

Re: Indie... pros and cons.

> Please chill a moment.
>
> No one is disputing the merits that Indie does have, which
> include>
>
> 1. Innovative programming for this market with lots of new
> artists and cuts and a different on air approach.
> 2. More creative freedom for the airstaff.
> 3. A new influence and launching pad for music.
> 4. Competition for KROQ which some perceived as being too
> conservative.
>
> There are also some defects:
>
> 1. Insurmountable bad signal.
> 2. Inability to get ratings that will make it a good return
> on a $70 million investment, no matter how good the
> programming is.
> 3. Negative impact on KROQ... KROQ may have over-reacted,
> making their sound less familiar and attractive to the core,
> hurting the genre overall.
> 4. The eventual financial failure will discourage other
> stations in other markets where the signal issues and such
> are not as clearly known.
> 5. Lack of ratings growth beyond initial impact.
>
> That is about it. Without emotion... it is not about whether
> we like or not the music. It is about the business model and
> its industry impact.
>
Incidentally, there are many of us who've read the glowing articles about Indie in publications like Rolling Stone magazine and can only listen to the station over the Internet. Does Indie's conceivably considerable cross-national listenership over the Net count for anything in your analysis?

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Indie... pros and cons.

> >
> Incidentally, there are many of us who've read the glowing
> articles about Indie in publications like Rolling Stone
> magazine and can only listen to the station over the
> Internet. Does Indie's conceivably considerable
> cross-national listenership over the Net count for anything
> in your analysis?
>

Nope. Radio is a local medium, and sales are based on listeners in the local markets. Stations that stream in larger markets generally strip the commercials to avoid irritating the advertisers and getting into AFTRA issues, so there is no money to be made, no matter what reknow the station has outside the market.

For example, the top 25-54 station in LA is also one of the top couple of 25-54 stations in the separate Riverside market. In the last 10 years, the station has never billed a cent extra for the adjacent market listening.

 

[Bostonradiofan]

Re: Not whining about Indie?

And how many of us listen all around the country on the internet? In Boston, there are many of us who listen to Steve and Dickie in our cubicles. We don't show up on the ratings book but I bet national advertisers like that....


> I agree with the above posts. The simple reality is that
> Indie has had the BEST ratings on that dial in over a
> decade. Yes, Mr. Moderator, that is an accomplishment on
> such a terrible signal. Yes, it should be a point that all
> here should be well taken. This signal and it's format
> circus has been a center of debate, so why should the
> success not be debated and validated as well? It is a FACT
> the station still holds it's spot load and continues to air
> NATIONAL ads that cannot be by, stretch of some fantasy
> posters "trade spots".
>
> C'mon guys. Geez. Get real. ALL the spots on the station
> are for HIGH end retailers and alike, they have NO JUNK
> SPOTS that plagued the station for nearly 15 years.
>
> Entravision is doing something right. It's obvious that the
> success of the formats gets the ire of Mr. Eduardo for some
> strange reason. How expects the 1031 signal to make 20
> million? Nobody. Who expects the 1031 signal to make $20
> million as an ethnic format? Nobody. Entravision tried it
> with it's Estrella simulcast, and it did not work.
>
>
> I mentioned previously that the 1031 signal did manage to
> make over a Million a month with the JAZZ format and I have
> the financials to prove it.
> Indie's niche could be billing just that. Since Mr.
> Richards allows Mr. Eduardo carte blanche in terms of his
> "facts" then please allow others the same respect. Since no
> one, including the moderator, has posted any real HARD facts
> about Indies financial picture and it's advertising sources
> for it's national business, all I have heard to date here is
> negative speculation, funny that when the negative
> speculation goes against Mr. Eduardo or Richards, an attack
> immediately insues, why is that?
>
> Clearly, on many levels substainated by published
> statistics, Indie is doing very very well for it's
> limitations, the best ANY format has done on that signal.
> Yes, that is well worth acknowlegment and debate. It is
> about time someone do something right and noteworthy on that
> signal for petes sake.
>
> I have also noted that moving this format to a station like
> STAR could be a big winner for Clear Channel, and I totally
> dispute innwabon's remarks to the opposite. If Indie is
> garnering a 1-1.4 share on this crap signal, it would
> without question gain a 2 share or more on a full range
> signal dropping KROQ down to a 2 share as well.. I am
> marketing exec and also stand by my statistics that show San
> Diego alternative market to be the sister to the LA market,
> and I have research facts to back it up thank you.
>
> 91x is sinking and floundering because 94.9 is killing them,
> that is a fact.
>