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KRTH Top 500 Countdown issues
- Thread starter oldies76
- Start date
gr8oldies said:
Each of those is nulled by a "righttolifemobile."
Not sure where you live, but there are a ton here in LA, along with the typical "My Child Is An Honor Student" stickers. And this wasn't even a battleground state.
Face it. Whatever you want to use as a barometer: stickers, appreciative websites (or lack thereof), internet forums, blogs, or Arbitron's measurement of "amount of time spent with radio"...the passion for radio, which was once considerable, has been replaced by lack of interest or even animosity.
Face it. Whatever you want to use as a barometer: stickers, appreciative websites (or lack thereof), internet forums, blogs, or Arbitron's measurement of "amount of time spent with radio"...the passion for radio, which was once considerable, has been replaced by lack of interest or even animosity.
scooty430 said:
I drive about 20 thousand miles a year, mostly in SoCal and AZ. So I know that the use of bumper stickers is far less than in the past. Most people will not put one on the rubberized bumpers of today, for fear that they will peel the paint off. Many users of stickers have opted for window stickers for this reason.
Back in the "age" of chrome bumpers, stickers were far more common. Back then, being part of something was very positive... today, being an individualist is more important, and stickers for mass media and such are just not part of that individualism.
The average listener does not go to remotes, does not participate in contests and has never been in a radio station. They don't put on stickers and don't start websites because they don't live for their radio station any more than they live for American Idol or Ralph's or WalMart.
The time spent with radio is still huge...even though it has been slightly fragmented by all the new options since the mid 80's. To make a conclusion about passion based on TSL, which is determined by available time in a person's life, is absurd and very, very naive.
If you don't like radio, don't listen. You can get your precious 60's and even 50's oldies on the satellite for as long as that lasts... but to think that radio stations will listen to your ultra-minority opinions when they have research, access to the real Arbitron numbers, etc., is similarly very naive and disingenuous.
DavidEduardo said:
How many people live in the US that are 25-54 or older? How many of them have a say on what gets aired (testing) on oldies and c/h stations, far less than 1%. How many of the remaining crowd (99.9%) would want to hear different songs, besides what is airing over and over? Mentioning his opinions as "ultra-minority" is an overstatement to say the least.
It's KRTH that has the restrictions on what can air, not WCBS.
DavidEduardo said:
I will agree that fewer people use bumper stickers today. But in your defensiveness your are missing the point. Those people that DO use stickers (on their windows, by the way) no longer have radio stations there. Heck, only ten years ago, (post chrome-era, by the way) you'd see people who had all the KROQ stickers going back to the 80s - all lined up. Today, people have quite a few other stickers: but no radio ones. What does that tell you?
Maybe you were never around, or in another country, when ordinary people (and not just radio geeks) cared about radio, but I can tell you that it happened. Because I was there. 'BCN in Boston. The Mighty MET in Los Angeles. KROQ. People DID live for their stations - same way people LIVE for Obama, or LIVE for Seinfeld, or LIVE for American Idol. It matters to them.
Today's radio simply doesn't.
oldies76 said:
Ah, another research expert checks in.
Next time you go to the doctor for a blood test, tell him that one or two cc's of blood is not representative of the liters of blood in your system, and that you want all your blood taken to insure an accurate test.
In essence, that is what you have just posted.
Properly recruited, a sample of 80 to 100 persons will represent the entire audience of a station and its competitors. We know this because we can do a second test, a third, a fourth, and so on and get the same results in what is called a replication study. When a sample replicates (gets the same results within the margins of error of the sample) then there is no need for a larger sample.
So we can sway with near total certainty that, in the case of a music test, that the untested listeners would, if tested, yield the same results.
However, each individual listener may have a few songs... or many... that are not consensus songs. Among the totality of listners, most of them would not like or even tune out if they heard them. The purpose of radio research is to find broad, mass appeal songs. The ones only a few people like will kill the listening by the vast majority... and that is why only the big hits get played.
DavidEduardo said:
All one's blood in a body is the same composition and type.
All the potential listeners of a station have different minds and like different songs.
I understand the info you've provided on testing and replication. I just have a hard time justifying those results to the others, the remaining 99% of the listeners who probably wish other cuts were aired, besides the core songs.
oldies76 said:
No, there are a group of songs that most everyone likes or at least are neutral. Then there are many songs that a small percentage likes, while the rest detest. They may be different songs for each person, but the fact is that none of these other songs is liked by the majority, who indicate they would strongly dislike it were such songs played.
By the time you test all the possible songs for a format, you find that there are a finite, and very stable number, at any one time that the majority of people want to hear on the radio. All the rest of the songs may have a small percent of "likers" but a big percent of "haters" and can't be played.
What you have makes this hypothetical case: A station wants to play old songs that appeal to a specific age group, and that means perhaps 15 years of music to draw from. Were there no other data available, the charts for the music genre would be a start. First, obviously dated novelty songs are dropped, and perhaps some crossovers from other formats. You might be left with 1500 songs that made it into the top 40 or 30 sometime in that period... and you might add some songs that were album cuts that seem to have not charted but are anthems of the era. Then you test the songs with listeners or format partisans. You might come up with maybe 600 songs that are neutral or better, and play 500 in regular rotation and 100 as fills. The others are liked by small groups... 10%, 20%, etc. But you know that the bulk of the audience will not tolerate them, and in your market you know there are lots of alternatives, like AC, or Country or classic rock or a Jack format that they will go to if they hate the song.... and you'll have to wait for the other station to play a bad song to get the listener back. So you don't play the songs that most of your listeners think are sucky.
oldies76 said:
KRTH, and just about EVERY radio station in America has restrictions, even your beloved WCBS. New York and LA as I've pointed out before are two very different cities and comparing oldies stations for these cities is like apples & pears. Very similar, but different tastes. People in New York were raised on WABC for the most part. Angelinos were raised on KHJ, reverb, no reverb, PAMs jingles vs Johnny Mann... Oh I could go on, but why, it's an endless debate and since it's fueled by opinion you'll never be in sync with everyone on these boards. The bottom line is that it could be worse. A few years ago WCBS was JACK and KRTH was playing about 350 songs. Now WCBS is back and doing well, so is KRTH. But they're programmed by two different people with different experiences. But hey, they're both doing well and if I might add, while KRTH may not be quite as diverse as CBS-FM it does play a lot more variety than just a few years back and is doing so well in the PPM that it's in the top half of the top ten in LA. I believe that you'll really only find a few very vocal people on these boards who think KRTH sounds bad... I've been in radio for a long time and I know what I like and I think KRTH sounds better than it has in a decade and that's just fine with me... By the way, if you love WCBS, great! I'm right there with you, they do sound good. So listen via the webstream and be happy you can hear them...
The whole "we can only play a finite number of songs" argument was pretty much blown out of the water by JACK. What do they have, 1500 or 2000?
It's also simplistic to say that there are only two kinds of songs: the ones most people like, and then the ones only a few people like (and others "detest" - quite a strong word there!)
There is a middle ground: songs that are not Hotel California/Stairway To Heaven level classics, but are still good tunes.
But regardless of your stance, the idea that you can play 350 songs (which only takes about a day or two to run through) forever and ever is poppycock. It turns great songs into wallpaper, and makes you sick of them. It makes you DETEST them! This is what radio guys simply do not understand, because they are so locked into their pretty little tests, and their desire to snag casual listeners with their "cume," - people who just pop in and then pop right back out. What foolish advertiser would want that audience anyway?
Radio people are basically playing a ratings "game." They are not concerned with pleasing real listeners, or making a quality product. They are simply trying to outwit the system, be it diary or now the almighty PPM.
Total farce. And the public knows it, because they "spend less time with radio" (ha, love that phrase) every year.
It's also simplistic to say that there are only two kinds of songs: the ones most people like, and then the ones only a few people like (and others "detest" - quite a strong word there!)
There is a middle ground: songs that are not Hotel California/Stairway To Heaven level classics, but are still good tunes.
But regardless of your stance, the idea that you can play 350 songs (which only takes about a day or two to run through) forever and ever is poppycock. It turns great songs into wallpaper, and makes you sick of them. It makes you DETEST them! This is what radio guys simply do not understand, because they are so locked into their pretty little tests, and their desire to snag casual listeners with their "cume," - people who just pop in and then pop right back out. What foolish advertiser would want that audience anyway?
Radio people are basically playing a ratings "game." They are not concerned with pleasing real listeners, or making a quality product. They are simply trying to outwit the system, be it diary or now the almighty PPM.
Total farce. And the public knows it, because they "spend less time with radio" (ha, love that phrase) every year.
scooty430 said:
No, more like 800 in most markets.
When people say "detest" in the test, they mean they hate the song. And there are truly two types of songs... ones that are playable and those that are not. The ones that are not are the ones that, in the simplest way of saying it, less than half the listeners like and in that group the scores indicate strong or moderate dislike.
If a majority of the listeners score the song below neutral, it is a TSL killer.
Those "petty little tests" cost $30 thousand to $50 thousand each... so they are a very big deal. And in the context of oldies or classic hits, we are usually discussing about 500 songs , give or take. And if properly scheduled, based on the average P1 and P2's TSL, most listeners will not hear the songs for 10 days to 3 weeks, depending on category.
Getting good ratings requires good radio. There are no tricks.
DavidEduardo said:
LA's JACK has a 1500-2000 song playlist, according to interviews given to the LA Times. Please show evidence of smaller playlists elsewhere, because JACK is known for having large playlists, and in the past you have been somewhat loose with statistics.
Again, you are missing the point. On a song-by-song basis, it perhaps makes sense to not play anything that more than 50 percent of the audience likes.
But if that only yields 400 songs (KLOS' playlist until a couple years ago) or 250 songs (KRTH's playlist under Jay Coffey) or even 800 songs (KLOS and KRTH currently) then you simply don't have enough songs. The repetition makes the station, overall, sound horrible.
Go ahead and google "I'm tired of hearing the same songs" or any other similar phrase, and you will see hundreds, if not thousands of comments saying this. Or just talk to ordinary people in your life.
The only people tuning into a KRTH or KLOS would have to be a VERY casual listener, or someone who has never listened to that format before. That's just it: they know there are more casual listeners out there than hardcores (hardcores needing more songs) so they go after the casuals. It doesn't matter if they only listen 20 minutes a day (or week, even), if there are enough of them.
But is a station on infinite repeat, and designed to be listened to for twenty minutes, "good radio?" I would say it must not be very good if you only listen to it twenty minutes a week. (20 minute figure comes from LA Times by the way...)
For most rock and oldies fans, however, these songs have been played nonstop for thirty or more years. (The exception would be some of the new KRTH tracks from the 70s, which explains why they are no longer quite as boring, and also no longer languishing in the ratings. But give them time, and they will burn their new playlist into the ground too.)
Pity the poor person who would have to listen to KRTH all day long at the office. You'd go mad.
scooty430 said:
I have not "played loose" with anything... it's your lack of understanding of the terms.
Jack LA per MediaBase has less than 900 songs.
A station can say anything it wants to the press, but that does not make it so.
The significant station (1 share or above) in LA with the largest library is KRCD.
No, it does not. Only to you does it sound bad. KRTH is doing incredibly well for it's genre, but look at the #1 station... KIIS with about 100 songs.
I talk to ordinary people all the time, and the only time "tired of" comes up is in reference to hearing a song that is a stiff or weak.
KRTH's 400,000 PPM P1s listen an average of 8:15 a week just to KRTH. That is a huge number, no matter what decade you are looking at. The total cume of KRTH is 2.4 million, so 25% of the listeners are P1 (pretty average for any station there) but they listen a lot... in fact, they have the 4th highest P1 cume in the market... after KIIS, Coast (christmas effect) and KROQ.
There is no station in LA with a 20 minute TSL... the overall TSL of the stations over a 1 share is in the 2:45 to 4:15 hours a week range (and that includes the 50% of cume that is "incidental listening"). Among non-incidental listening, the figures are around double. I suspect you did not understand the terms. The average listening incident is 20 to 40 minutes, but there are many of these per week for the P1 and P2 listener.
What we've got here is "failure to communicate". ;D
The problem is that for better or worse, it is not good radio or bad radio that gets ratings it is redundant radio. Programmers like David see redundancy with high test scores as "good" while Scooty argues that a large playlist with lots of seldom heard nuggets is "good". The two concepts are mutually exclusive.
While I agree with Scooty that commercial radio such as the type David E. strives for is mind-numbing to the hardcore listener, Scooty is bound to lose in the game of reality because the numbers and the $$$ back David.
Solution: Scooty, get over it. Your favorite station will never be what you want it to be. Radio in general will never be what you want it to be. It will always be what the lowest common denominator likes. It will be what people who watch "American Idol" likes, or who used to watch "Friends" likes. And these people simply don't care if their favorite song is beaten into the ground. And there are far more of them than you (and me). You, me, Super, and anyone else who wants real variety has to get it from other sources and if you care enough about the music, you will. The good news is, there are more outlets for non-mainstream music than ever before. You know, internet radio, mp3s, satelite, etc.
The fact of the matter is, David and his ilk drove me and others like you and me away from radio. They don't care. If we wanted that much variety, we were never in their sights to begin with. They have their $. They have my wife, who turns on KOST like a robot for background music and doesn't care what they repeat. But they don't have us. And that's the way they like it.
So finalize your divorce from radio (they already did it to you) and let us know your favorite alternative means of getting good music. You might turn us on to something good.
The problem is that for better or worse, it is not good radio or bad radio that gets ratings it is redundant radio. Programmers like David see redundancy with high test scores as "good" while Scooty argues that a large playlist with lots of seldom heard nuggets is "good". The two concepts are mutually exclusive.
While I agree with Scooty that commercial radio such as the type David E. strives for is mind-numbing to the hardcore listener, Scooty is bound to lose in the game of reality because the numbers and the $$$ back David.
Solution: Scooty, get over it. Your favorite station will never be what you want it to be. Radio in general will never be what you want it to be. It will always be what the lowest common denominator likes. It will be what people who watch "American Idol" likes, or who used to watch "Friends" likes. And these people simply don't care if their favorite song is beaten into the ground. And there are far more of them than you (and me). You, me, Super, and anyone else who wants real variety has to get it from other sources and if you care enough about the music, you will. The good news is, there are more outlets for non-mainstream music than ever before. You know, internet radio, mp3s, satelite, etc.
The fact of the matter is, David and his ilk drove me and others like you and me away from radio. They don't care. If we wanted that much variety, we were never in their sights to begin with. They have their $. They have my wife, who turns on KOST like a robot for background music and doesn't care what they repeat. But they don't have us. And that's the way they like it.
So finalize your divorce from radio (they already did it to you) and let us know your favorite alternative means of getting good music. You might turn us on to something good.
DavidEduardo said:
The "terms" aren't as complex as you like to believe.
I tend to believe the articles I read in the press rather than a guy on a message board. And what I have read is that PPM is showing much lower listening levels than ever before.
An average of 8 hours a week.. Take out the forced office listening, which raises the average way up, you again see casual, non-devoted listening. What's the median, not the mean..
Regarding JACK playing 900 songs on "Mediabase," if you've ever listened to a station, then checked Mediabase, you will find it misses a good third of the songs. As for your "900" figure, over how long a time period? Even you know that JACK is constantly rotating tracks around to keep them from burnout.
As for "saying anything to the press," are you suggesting Kevin Weatherly is a liar?
Sooty....
With all due respect, I would point out to you that when the forerunner of modern popular music based formats were born, Todd Storz, Gordon MacLendon, and others demonstrated that the easiest path to ratings/financial success was with a playlist of forty. According to the story, in the days before anyone thought of "renting a room at the local Ramada" or whatever, Storz went to local watering holes in Omaha, New Orleans, etc. and noted what songs people were playing on the jukebox.
A decade later, Bill Drake and his contemporaries had the playlist whittled down to thirty songs....or less!
Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but the point is....whether we like it or not....it's been a proven fact for over a half century that a research-backed tightly honed playlist usually wins.
With all due respect, I would point out to you that when the forerunner of modern popular music based formats were born, Todd Storz, Gordon MacLendon, and others demonstrated that the easiest path to ratings/financial success was with a playlist of forty. According to the story, in the days before anyone thought of "renting a room at the local Ramada" or whatever, Storz went to local watering holes in Omaha, New Orleans, etc. and noted what songs people were playing on the jukebox.
A decade later, Bill Drake and his contemporaries had the playlist whittled down to thirty songs....or less!
Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but the point is....whether we like it or not....it's been a proven fact for over a half century that a research-backed tightly honed playlist usually wins.
scooty430 said:
Then you must be a poor learner, as you don't understand sampling, statistics and the meaning of the Arbitron terms.
The newspaper people have no knowledge of radio, ever, and are a competitor to boot. On the other hand, I have been dealing with Arbitron for one short of 40 years, and have even been invited by Arbitron to present seminars on the survey and the survey review process in the world's largest radio market.
Most stations have shown a doubling of cume (or more) by occasional listeners (5 minutes in the paint shop, 10 minutes in the drug store, etc). If you double the total listeners, but all the new ones listen about 15 minutes, and the old ones l,isten 8 hours, the result will be TSL that is half that of the diary.
Again, something you do not understand.
Further, let's say a person listens from 3:12 to 3:40. In the diary, they would usually write "3 PM to 4 PM" and give the station 4 quarter hours. In the PPM, they get credit for only 2 quarter hours. It's the same real listening, but more accurately recorded... not a decline in listening.
Believe it or not, most people don't even work in an office. And most at work listening, office, factory, shop, consturction site, loading dock or machine shop is personal, not in a group.
The real MediaBase that we pay thousands per month for does not miss any songs on Jack.
That is the library. While in LA Kevin seems to have a few songs that go in for things like rainy days, that's it. I took a 35 day non-Christmas period prior to Thanksgiving and listed every song played 2 times or more, and got 867 songs. If I go to one spin in 5 weeks, I get 911 songs, so what we have are a few very light spin songs that the average listener will hear about once every 2 or 3 years.
No, he is doing just what I would do or anyone else would... a bit of hyperbole and a bit of data to throw competitors off the track. There are no 2000 songs on Jack. And I know that MediaBase does not lie, particularly on mainstream English language music. They miss a tune or two a day on Recuerdo, but we play lots of imports that were never produced in the US, so that is understandable. But on any kind of American popular music, there is seldom a misdetection, and if there is it is usually because the station had a technical glitch or artifact during the fingerprint... which in LA seldom occurs.
calguy said:
Actually KRTH sounds a lot better now, than it did in the 90's or before Kaye took over. The problem is the small playlist, which is still a bit repetitive. 500 songs may seem like alot, but it's not when repeated frequently. What makes CBS-FM sound appealing is the wide range of years featured and song selections and it's themes and specials.
But yes, KRTH has improved over the years for sure. Thanks for your insights.
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