KVI is Oldies

[TVradioguru]

I could think of one exception to this rule - at least as of right now - with that being Baltimore's WBAL which is doing as well if not better than when they had Rush with an intensive news/talk format with drive times being almost all-news.

Last I heard, WBAL still has syndicated right-wing talk hosts during midday and nights. Beside losing share 25-54 from being an AM only station, WBAL is no longer much of a player in N/T as compared with WTOP, which is on FM-only signals in the market. WBAL has dropped to lower-middle pack in the market and continues to slide.

I think it's safe to say that political talk as a format is losing steam, mainly because the average listener is aging past the desired 25-54 demographic and because most of the talk stations that carry it are on the AM dial.

 

[equalinercard]

I could think of one exception to this rule - at least as of right now - with that being Baltimore's WBAL which is doing as well if not better than when they had Rush with an intensive news/talk format with drive times being almost all-news.

Last I heard, WBAL still has syndicated right-wing talk hosts during midday and nights. Beside losing share 25-54 from being an AM only station, WBAL is no longer much of a player in N/T as compared with WTOP, which is on FM-only signals in the market. WBAL has dropped to lower-middle pack in the market and continues to slide.

I think it's safe to say that political talk as a format is losing steam, mainly because the average listener is aging past the desired 25-54 demographic and because most of the talk stations that carry it are on the AM dial.

Do you just make stuff up? If so, maybe you shouldn't use "guru" in your handle.

First of all, WBAL and WTOP are in different Arbitron markets. One is Baltimore, the other Washington. Secondly, like many stations WBAL tanked with the launch of PPM. But they've made adjustments and now are moving up each month and are now ranked 7th 12+ and are the highest rated talk station in the market.

Also, WBAL does not carry any syndicated shows M-F. And, other than Rush, they never really have in recent years.

Here's a tip...if you're going to just make stuff up, do it somewhere where other people can't easily check your "facts."

 

[klutch00]

I could think of one exception to this rule - at least as of right now - with that being Baltimore's WBAL which is doing as well if not better than when they had Rush with an intensive news/talk format with drive times being almost all-news.

Last I heard, WBAL still has syndicated right-wing talk hosts during midday and nights. Beside losing share 25-54 from being an AM only station, WBAL is no longer much of a player in N/T as compared with WTOP, which is on FM-only signals in the market. WBAL has dropped to lower-middle pack in the market and continues to slide.

I think it's safe to say that political talk as a format is losing steam, mainly because the average listener is aging past the desired 25-54 demographic and because most of the talk stations that carry it are on the AM dial.

Do you just make stuff up? If so, maybe you shouldn't use "guru" in your handle.

First of all, WBAL and WTOP are in different Arbitron markets. One is Baltimore, the other Washington. Secondly, like many stations WBAL tanked with the launch of PPM. But they've made adjustments and now are moving up each month and are now ranked 7th 12+ and are the highest rated talk station in the market.

Also, WBAL does not carry any syndicated shows M-F. And, other than Rush, they never really have in recent years.

Here's a tip...if you're going to just make stuff up, do it somewhere where other people can't easily check your "facts."

Thank you for backing me up! WBAL runs almost all-news programs during morning and afternoon drive-times now. Ron Smith is on during the late mornings and Clarence Mitchell IV (C4) is on during the early afternoons. A sports program follows the "Afternoon News Journal" in the early evenings. For more information, go to: http://www.wbal.com/

Come to think of it, since becoming a full-time news/talker in (I believe) 1985, I don't think WBAL ever did much syndication with the exception of Rush and maybe a few other programs here or there.

 

[klutch00]

Enjoying the new KVI north of the border too. With 600 now dark they blast up here interference free in the daytime (nights are a different story though). Can't wait until the live voices hit the air after Christmas.

What gives with the Talk programming remaining on the weekends though? That's a deterrent in my opinion.

My guess is there are some contracts and/or advertising deals that were hard to cancel. If this is indeed a cost-cutting move, then it would be cheaper just to run those programs out than try and pay them off.

As for trying to make the format unique and local, there is more risk in doing that. I think KVI is in "safe mode" with this format...meaning the 350-400 best testing oldies from 1964 to 1983 or so. More of the same, ho hum.

If the powers-that-be are smart, they'll expand the playlist to include no less than 2,000 titles, and even that's probably a bit lame.

Well, a 2,000 title playlist might be interesting to music historians, but not the mainsteam. It simply won't happen. However, I might listen to it!

If you're operating an AM station which plays music, you must be innovative and get people to flip that band switch over. you have to make people think 'wow, I haven't heard that song in forever and I'm glad to hear it again!' when they turn you on. Otherwise, your station will fail.

I'm hearing the KVI has decent audio quality for AM and that too will be essential. Might I also suggest offering a quality analog AM stereo transmission standard.

 

[SRP]

I'm hearing the KVI has decent audio quality for AM and that too will be essential. Might I also suggest offering a quality analog AM stereo transmission standard.

You might suggest it if it were 1985. In 2010, however your suggestion is just dumb.

 

[David1960]

Enjoying the new KVI north of the border too. With 600 now dark they blast up here interference free in the daytime (nights are a different story though). Can't wait until the live voices hit the air after Christmas.

What gives with the Talk programming remaining on the weekends though? That's a deterrent in my opinion.

My guess is there are some contracts and/or advertising deals that were hard to cancel. If this is indeed a cost-cutting move, then it would be cheaper just to run those programs out than try and pay them off.

As for trying to make the format unique and local, there is more risk in doing that. I think KVI is in "safe mode" with this format...meaning the 350-400 best testing oldies from 1964 to 1983 or so. More of the same, ho hum.

If the powers-that-be are smart, they'll expand the playlist to include no less than 2,000 titles, and even that's probably a bit lame.

Well, a 2,000 title playlist might be interesting to music historians, but not the mainsteam. It simply won't happen. However, I might listen to it!

I'll chime to say that a properly executed playlist of 2000 is entirely possible to execute with success. I just ran an analysis of the Billboard Hot 100 from January 1964 thru December 1982. Excluding complete schlock like Torn Between Two Lovers and idiotic novelties like Disco Duck, there were still 1600 songs that made Billboard's Top 10, the bulk of which are still quite well-known. Beyond that, many of the classics that already comprise any decent oldies station library such as What I Like About You and Old Time Rock 'n Roll never even made the Top 20 so it's easy to fill that out a little further, especially if you select a few 50s classics. And you could still completely avoid things like Heart's "What About Love", a sore-thumb of a song I heard them play Tuesday night. (I like Heart but this one just doesn't work.)

Don't get me wrong -- I'm NOT saying that you give equal weight to all the titles. Never do that -- that's Programming 101. Play many of them only once a week or two. There's clearly music enough to make an interesting oldies station that will satisfy both the adventurous and the people who only want songs they know "by heart".

After all, how many songs get played on an oldies station in a given hour? According to YES, KVI played 62 in their first 4 hours on Sunday. At that rate, it takes only 26 hours to play an entire 400-song roster. That's an awful lot of Louie Louie and Long Cool Woman In A Black Dress. (And again employing Programming 101 with weighted songs, I'm pretty certain that many are played closer to every 12-14 hours.)

I really hope the figure of 400 that someone tossed out is not their long-term strategy because it will burn me out faster than anything and I really want to love this station. I think I will.

On a more positive note, I love hearing this music on AM and while some have noted large gaps in the segues, they sound perfect to my ears. I really like what they're doing in that regard.

 

[TVradioguru]

Do you just make stuff up? If so, maybe you shouldn't use "guru" in your handle.

No I don't "make stuff up". I was in the DC-Baltimore area just last week. I know what I heard. When was the last time you listened to WBAL in person? Yes, I thought so..

Even though the Baltimore and DC/VA markets are technically separate, pretty much all the stations look to cross over and play in each market. WTOP has regularly handed WBAL it's head for quite a while now 25-54 in Baltimore. Are you saying that WBAL doesn't want to sell in DC? Or that WTOP doesn't sell in Baltimore?

So are you also claiming that talk radio isn't in decline? To me, anyone who doesn't think it isn't is either in denial, or just bitter because their low-rated weekend talk show didn't work out.

 

[equalinercard]

Do you just make stuff up? If so, maybe you shouldn't use "guru" in your handle.

No I don't "make stuff up". I was in the DC-Baltimore area just last week. I know what I heard. When was the last time you listened to WBAL in person? Yes, I thought so..

Even though the Baltimore and DC/VA markets are technically separate, pretty much all the stations look to cross over and play in each market. WTOP has regularly handed WBAL it's head for quite a while now 25-54 in Baltimore. Are you saying that WBAL doesn't want to sell in DC? Or that WTOP doesn't sell in Baltimore?

So are you also claiming that talk radio isn't in decline? To me, anyone who doesn't think it isn't is either in denial, or just bitter because their low-rated weekend talk show didn't work out.

You claimed that "last you heard" WBAL was mostly right wing syndicated talk daytime and evenings. Fact is other than Rush WBAL has been almost exclusively live and local for decades during the week. So, obviously, you don't know what you heard.

The Baltimore and Washington markets are not 'technically" separate. They ARE separate markets. Look at an Arbitron map. Washington is Market #9. Baltimore is Market #22. They are close, there are some overlapping zip codes, but they are completely separate metros. And there has been very little cross-market advertising. Clients in Baltimore do not typically use WTOP. And Clients in Washington would have little use for WBAL.

There have been a handful of FM stations that, as you put it, try to 'play to both markets.' Most notably the old WHFS which was a 50-000 watt stick licensed to Annapolis. But most stations are focused on one market or the other...not both.

It's true that some FM stations in Baltimore show up in the Washington ratings and vice versa. For example, WLIF and WPOC show up in Washington and WTOP shows up in Baltimore. But 12+ WBAL is 7th in Baltimore and WTOP is 29th. And 25-54 WBAL is 12th and WTOP is 27th. You'll have to show me any book in the past 20 years where WTOP has been ahead of WBAL in the Baltimore metro.

You can accuse others of being weekend talk hosts or whatever, but it doesn't change the point that you just make stuff up.

 

[radioguy123]

I agree with David and hope they play more than a couple hundred songs, unlike so many FM stations these days. I find myself listening more than I thought and the AM signal is not that bothersome for some reason. I have heard repeated songs, big hits, but about 1/3 of the songs each hour seem to be different. I heard the station promoting they are doing a Saturday Night Fever show and a seventies night show. I could do without disco, but a seventies hour is of interest. I wonder if, god forbid, when they live jocks arrive they might have some request shows and have the guts to play real requests as long as they aren't too out there?

How did a post on KVI turn into a discussion on Baltimore radio?

 

[airchair]

Why must there be so many confusing quotes, one on top of another? Guru, you rock, and everyone here truly knows you KNOW what you're talking about. Whether they admit it or not. Guru, I enjoy your posts and opinions...And the FACTS you share here on this board. I also look forward to the KVI "Big Picture" plan.

AirChair

 

[TVradioguru]

Thanks for the kind words. Even though people sometimes get really down on this industry, I love my line of work.

Late last week a buddy of mine who has also programmed oldies stations in the past and I were having a discussion about the whole idea of an oldies format for the future. An intriguing idea came out of the conversation. Now granted one should test the heck out of this before launching in a market and the risk being it could lead toward an overly tight niche' format being created, BUT...

What if you took a station like a KVI, or whatever station circling the drain and make it a true radio-era music time capsule? Here's the idea; lock the station into replicating the Billboard Top 40(tm) playlists from a particular year, month and even week. So at launch, the station plays only the songs from that month and equivalent week of say, 1962. Same song rotation, similar sounding jingles of the day, everything except the talent of course, since many of them aren't alive today anyway. The Top 40 are followed for each week, month, and continuing into the next year which, in this example; would exactly follow the Billboard Top 40(tm) playlist for each week and month in 1963, etc.

The downside? Plenty. The demos who remember that era and listen wouldn't be sought after because of their age bracket. Will advertisers or agencies care about reaching that audience? Two, if one was true to the format, the song rotation would have to equal that of the era. In most cases 'power' rotated songs came up 1.5-2 hours or less back in the 60's. That quick of a rotation in this day and age potentially could hurt TSL. And finally; the work involved for a music director or PD would be quite intense. The Billboard lists are readily available, but would involve hours of work each week to load and maintain a fast rotating playlist, along with the jingle creation costs and adjusting to maintain proper flow. If the audience didn't appreciate the true flashback to an era and the advertisers wanting to get onboard, all the work involved could be worthless.

I've listened to KVI via a stream and find them to be pretty timeline scattered to the point of risking quick turn-over. I understand completely what they're trying to accomplish, but trying to cross into too long of a timeline, walking between traditional oldies and classic hits, can create listener confusion. At least if a listener tunes into a station with a pure focus on a decade, they know what to expect. Whether that audience is large enough is in debate.

Hmm..Now I just need a client who would be willing to test this idea through focus groups and music tests.

 

[DeltaDon]

I think an updated version of what KIXI was doing in the middle to late 1990's would work. It got them a sizeable audience. Just get rid of all that big band and early 1950's music.

Are Jim Dai and Dave Winger available?

 

[klutch00]

I think an updated version of what KIXI was doing in the middle to late 1990's would work. It got them a sizeable audience. Just get rid of all that big band and early 1950's music.

Are Jim Dai and Dave Winger available?

As I may have mentioned earlier, I like the idea of a MOR for today which IMO could be similar but maybe not the same as Albany NY's WROW. I would include some of the lesser known but still appropriate hits by artists that the audience should be able to relate to as well as a few album cuts form a 'compilation' or other venerable album. Some examples could include at least half of the tracks on John Denver's first Greatest Hits album, Elton John's first two greatest hits albums, Billy Joel's 52nd Street and others which don't come to mind right now.

 

[Bongwater]

I think an updated version of what KIXI was doing in the middle to late 1990's would work. It got them a sizeable audience. Just get rid of all that big band and early 1950's music.

Are Jim Dai and Dave Winger available?

As I may have mentioned earlier, I like the idea of a MOR for today which IMO could be similar but maybe not the same as Albany NY's WROW. I would include some of the lesser known but still appropriate hits by artists that the audience should be able to relate to as well as a few album cuts form a 'compilation' or other venerable album. Some examples could include at least half of the tracks on John Denver's first Greatest Hits album, Elton John's first two greatest hits albums, Billy Joel's 52nd Street and others which don't come to mind right now.

I still say a sound like Brisbane, Australia's 4BH 882 AM is the best direction for KIXI:

http://www.4bh.com.au

 

[semoochie]

"What if you took a station like a KVI, or whatever station circling the drain and make it a true radio-era music time capsule? Here's the idea; lock the station into replicating the Billboard Top 40(tm) playlists from a particular year, month and even week. So at launch, the station plays only the songs from that month and equivalent week of say, 1962. Same song rotation, similar sounding jingles of the day, everything except the talent of course, since many of them aren't alive today anyway. The Top 40 are followed for each week, month, and continuing into the next year which, in this example; would exactly follow the Billboard Top 40(tm) playlist for each week and month in 1963, etc." I thought about doing this about 30 years ago, based on a special I heard on KIQI-FM San Francisco, where they recreated the times completely, including news reports and everything else. (All the songs were from a particular day in 1963 except "future gold" from 1965. There were also mentions of technology that hadn't been invented yet, so you couldn't use it.) I mentioned this concept to someone in radio and was told it wouldn't work because of constantly repeating songs that weren't current. I realize that "Classic Hits/Oldies does the same thing but not every 90 minutes and not without thorough testing!

 

[bossbill]

Would someone please define - What is an OLDIE?

 

[BurntOutRadio]

Bill, it is someone about our age.

 

[AQH]

"What if you took a station like a KVI, or whatever station circling the drain and make it a true radio-era music time capsule? Here's the idea; lock the station into replicating the Billboard Top 40(tm) playlists from a particular year, month and even week. So at launch, the station plays only the songs from that month and equivalent week of say, 1962. Same song rotation, similar sounding jingles of the day, everything except the talent of course, since many of them aren't alive today anyway. The Top 40 are followed for each week, month, and continuing into the next year which, in this example; would exactly follow the Billboard Top 40(tm) playlist for each week and month in 1963, etc." I thought about doing this about 30 years ago, based on a special I heard on KIQI-FM San Francisco, where they recreated the times completely, including news reports and everything else. (All the songs were from a particular day in 1963 except "future gold" from 1965. There were also mentions of technology that hadn't been invented yet, so you couldn't use it.) I mentioned this concept to someone in radio and was told it wouldn't work because of constantly repeating songs that weren't current. I realize that "Classic Hits/Oldies does the same thing but not every 90 minutes and not without thorough testing!

Music tastes change constantly. For example, Warm 106.9 plays the Gin Blossoms, Green Day and U2 ("Follow You Down," "Boulevard of Broken Dreams" and "Beautiful Day," respectively). Do you think when those songs first came out that Warm would ever play them?

Playing all the songs from an era would be novel for about one or two songs. Believe me, I don't want to hear an album track from Tony Orlando & Dawn or even Taylor Dayne, and I highly doubt listeners would want to either. The 1990s KJR-FM proved that programming a station through nostalgia does not work.

In its heyday, KBSG did a deeper show with Danny Holiday, but buried in Sunday evenings. Even before our instant gratification world materialized, a highly successful station relegated the "waxing nostalgic" show to a time slot where it would not hurt the station overall.

 

[Jay Peninger]

"What if you took a station like a KVI, or whatever station circling the drain and make it a true radio-era music time capsule? Here's the idea; lock the station into replicating the Billboard Top 40(tm) playlists from a particular year, month and even week. So at launch, the station plays only the songs from that month and equivalent week of say, 1962. Same song rotation, similar sounding jingles of the day, everything except the talent of course, since many of them aren't alive today anyway. The Top 40 are followed for each week, month, and continuing into the next year which, in this example; would exactly follow the Billboard Top 40(tm) playlist for each week and month in 1963, etc." I thought about doing this about 30 years ago, based on a special I heard on KIQI-FM San Francisco, where they recreated the times completely, including news reports and everything else. (All the songs were from a particular day in 1963 except "future gold" from 1965. There were also mentions of technology that hadn't been invented yet, so you couldn't use it.) I mentioned this concept to someone in radio and was told it wouldn't work because of constantly repeating songs that weren't current. I realize that "Classic Hits/Oldies does the same thing but not every 90 minutes and not without thorough testing!

Music tastes change constantly. For example, Warm 106.9 plays the Gin Blossoms, Green Day and U2 ("Follow You Down," "Boulevard of Broken Dreams" and "Beautiful Day," respectively). Do you think when those songs first came out that Warm would ever play them?

Playing all the songs from an era would be novel for about one or two songs. Believe me, I don't want to hear an album track from Tony Orlando & Dawn or even Taylor Dayne, and I highly doubt listeners would want to either. The 1990s KJR-FM proved that programming a station through nostalgia does not work.

In its heyday, KBSG did a deeper show with Danny Holiday, but buried in Sunday evenings. Even before our instant gratification world materialized, a highly successful station relegated the "waxing nostalgic" show to a time slot where it would not hurt the station overall.

Yes there is nothing nostalgic about the youth movement of today it seems... At least I can sit in a room or in a car and listen to music that predates my childhood and appreciate it for what it is... As we move forward I would pay a lot of money to be there when my kids are old enough to be defending their .50 Cent & Snoop Dog to my Grand Kids and trying to convince them that that is what music should sound like....

When it comes to looking backwards at anything often a little goes a very long way so maybe a format where you have a specialty show or something might be more attractive than trying to relive the past hour by hour...

 

[Bongwater]

"What if you took a station like a KVI, or whatever station circling the drain and make it a true radio-era music time capsule? Here's the idea; lock the station into replicating the Billboard Top 40(tm) playlists from a particular year, month and even week. So at launch, the station plays only the songs from that month and equivalent week of say, 1962. Same song rotation, similar sounding jingles of the day, everything except the talent of course, since many of them aren't alive today anyway. The Top 40 are followed for each week, month, and continuing into the next year which, in this example; would exactly follow the Billboard Top 40(tm) playlist for each week and month in 1963, etc." I thought about doing this about 30 years ago, based on a special I heard on KIQI-FM San Francisco, where they recreated the times completely, including news reports and everything else. (All the songs were from a particular day in 1963 except "future gold" from 1965. There were also mentions of technology that hadn't been invented yet, so you couldn't use it.) I mentioned this concept to someone in radio and was told it wouldn't work because of constantly repeating songs that weren't current. I realize that "Classic Hits/Oldies does the same thing but not every 90 minutes and not without thorough testing!

Music tastes change constantly. For example, Warm 106.9 plays the Gin Blossoms, Green Day and U2 ("Follow You Down," "Boulevard of Broken Dreams" and "Beautiful Day," respectively). Do you think when those songs first came out that Warm would ever play them?

Playing all the songs from an era would be novel for about one or two songs. Believe me, I don't want to hear an album track from Tony Orlando & Dawn or even Taylor Dayne, and I highly doubt listeners would want to either. The 1990s KJR-FM proved that programming a station through nostalgia does not work.

In its heyday, KBSG did a deeper show with Danny Holiday, but buried in Sunday evenings. Even before our instant gratification world materialized, a highly successful station relegated the "waxing nostalgic" show to a time slot where it would not hurt the station overall.

Yes there is nothing nostalgic about the youth movement of today it seems... At least I can sit in a room or in a car and listen to music that predates my childhood and appreciate it for what it is... As we move forward I would pay a lot of money to be there when my kids are old enough to be defending their .50 Cent & Snoop Dog to my Grand Kids and trying to convince them that that is what music should sound like....

When it comes to looking backwards at anything often a little goes a very long way so maybe a format where you have a specialty show or something might be more attractive than trying to relive the past hour by hour...

Brother, sometimes I feel the same way.......