KVI is Oldies

[searadiofreak]

Guru is correct on this one. Yes, a high-flyin' mass oldies library is appealing to radio/chart-phobes, it isn't to the mainstream. What works is what works. And with oldies, especially a new station to the format, is a tight, familiar playlist that builds cume first, and TSL later. It isn't real complicated. PPM or not, the principles remain the same.

 

[searadiofreak]

I have no idea what is going on with KJR-FM long-term. My educated guess is they will return to something close to their original format, but perhaps skew more "greatest hits" with KBSG out of the format. In this case, AT40 would probably return. KVI is really not a serious challenger, but KJR-FM may tweek to prevent any perceptual losses.

 

[Jay Peninger]

Successful classic rock or oldies formats left all run a rotational playlist total of around 600 songs. They may move a block of 30-50 or so in and out over a month, but well tested power songs grab and hold TSL the longest. Even XM/Sirius limit their playlists on just about any format to around that number. Ultimately you're doing your job correctly if you lightly freshen up the rotation by creating off-line sub rotations on a select few categories, giving the impression that the playlist is longer.

As SRP and I have attempted to educate the clearly non-radio literate, wide era switches and too many odd, untested-unfamiliar songs drive TSL down and tune-out up. Holding quarted hour TSL on a mono AM station will be difficult enough, the last thing you'll want to do is gamble with a bunch of one hit wonders, disco, or too far into AOR categories. Once you lose a listener by playing a song that they have strong feelings against, or think its weird, they won't be back. This is backed up by years of music research and audience testing.

That is good information and makes a lot of sense to me... Not having a background in radio I like posts like this because I think everyone thinks they can program a radio station and as I have learned quickly it isn't for the faint of heart and every thing you do has a real time affect... Even though we are Internet only I have been totally blown away by how one poor song choice can send mouse fingers clicking to other channels...

Playlist size is something I have struggled with I think right now ours is just over 600 and I always feel like there should be more so =)

Thank you guys for a great discussion...

 

[dunno]

I think you can move you p 2's into the p 1 slot and get some
of those p 1's off the burner on monthly basis.
Just watch your research results with you p 1 and p 2 listeners.

Why would this station be any different that a T-40 or hot ac
which change the music weekly, monthly with reseach results of
the core.

Saturday I tuned in, forgot that the weekend talk shows were still on and caught some guy complaining about the new format, then went on talking for several minutes about how bad his nose is dripping. Talk about a cume killer! Let alone TSL.

 

[klutch00]

Successful classic rock or oldies formats left all run a rotational playlist total of around 600 songs. They may move a block of 30-50 or so in and out over a month, but well tested power songs grab and hold TSL the longest. Even XM/Sirius limit their playlists on just about any format to around that number. Ultimately you're doing your job correctly if you lightly freshen up the rotation by creating off-line sub rotations on a select few categories, giving the impression that the playlist is longer.

As SRP and I have attempted to educate the clearly non-radio literate, wide era switches and too many odd, untested-unfamiliar songs drive TSL down and tune-out up. Holding quarted hour TSL on a mono AM station will be difficult enough, the last thing you'll want to do is gamble with a bunch of one hit wonders, disco, or too far into AOR categories. Once you lose a listener by playing a song that they have strong feelings against, or think its weird, they won't be back. This is backed up by years of music research and audience testing.

That is good information and makes a lot of sense to me... Not having a background in radio I like posts like this because I think everyone thinks they can program a radio station and as I have learned quickly it isn't for the faint of heart and every thing you do has a real time affect... Even though we are Internet only I have been totally blown away by how one poor song choice can send mouse fingers clicking to other channels...

Playlist size is something I have struggled with I think right now ours is just over 600 and I always feel like there should be more so =)

Thank you guys for a great discussion...

Guru is correct on this one. Yes, a high-flyin' mass oldies library is appealing to radio/chart-phobes, it isn't to the mainstream. What works is what works. And with oldies, especially a new station to the format, is a tight, familiar playlist that builds cume first, and TSL later. It isn't real complicated. PPM or not, the principles remain the same.

I realize that a radio station's main objective is to create an audience an make money. The fact of the matter is if you don't have the means to keep interest in your station, you might as well shut down shop! I realize there is only so much you can play without alienating your core audience. Nevertheless, you have an AM station which for whatever reason decided to pull the plug on its talk format and go music. With the limited fidelity of AM and with most musical listening being done on FM, digital or satellite radio, you had better damned well have material which will keep the audience tuned in or you're finished...quick! While guru states that you can't play too many deep album cuts, disco or one-hit-wonders and keep the audience, you can expand the playlist and still maintain some sort of appeal. There were songs which broke the top-40 which for whatever reason got shoved aside for few if any good reasons.

 

[klutch00]

I think you can move you p 2's into the p 1 slot and get some
of those p 1's off the burner on monthly basis.
Just watch your research results with you p 1 and p 2 listeners.

Why would this station be any different that a T-40 or hot ac
which change the music weekly, monthly with research results of
the core.

Saturday I tuned in, forgot that the weekend talk shows were still on and caught some guy complaining about the new format, then went on talking for several minutes about how bad his nose is dripping. Talk about a cume killer! Let alone TSL.

I don't know if the station is still forced to carry these programs because of contracts or whatever, but until said shows are moved to another time slot (like early morning or late night on Sunday or another 'out-of-the-way' time), success is unlikely.

 

[notalent]

Try PAID to play those programs. That my friend equals success in todays radio business. Income.

Apparently they aren't as dedicated to being a number one oldies station as they are at making a little dough.

 

[TVradioguru]

There were songs which broke the top-40 which for whatever reason got shoved aside for few if any good reasons.

[quote/]

The "whatever reason" you conveniently glaze over is actually quite key. The "reason" is because those songs had a limited popularity lifespan to begin with; they quite simply weren't that popular or remained hits for very long back in the day. Chances are those songs also didn't test well then and don't now. Why would you knowingly put unpopular songs on any radio station and expect someone to stay tuned in? It doesn't make sense.

The average music station listener listens between ten and twenty minutes. If you can keep them for a full fifteen minutes, mission accomplished. If they tune in and hear a disco song or one hit wonder, then you've taken the chances for a full quarter hour of TSL and flushed it trying to be cute.

Radio is a business. You won't become very successful by being stupid, or cute.

 

[pbf1]

The "whatever reason" you conveniently glaze over is actually quite key. The "reason" is because those songs had a limited popularity lifespan to begin with; they quite simply weren't that popular or remained hits for very long back in the day. Chances are those songs also didn't test well then and don't now. Why would you knowingly put unpopular songs on any radio station and expect someone to stay tuned in? It doesn't make sense.

The average music station listener listens between ten and twenty minutes. If you can keep them for a full fifteen minutes, mission accomplished. If they tune in and hear a disco song or one hit wonder, then you've taken the chances for a full quarter hour of TSL and flushed it trying to be cute.

Radio is a business. You won't become very successful by being stupid, or cute.

That is far from an absolute. Example: "What I Like About You" by the Romantics. Only hit #49 back in 1980, yet today tests better than almost any other song from that year.

 

[SRP]

I'm not going to waste my time citing specific quotes from the past few posts - just some comments:

@ "klutch00" - how many successful radio stations have you programmed? I know the answer - ZERO. You clearly don't get it and never will.

@pbf1 - there are exceptions to every rule. Want to hear "You Light Up My Life" or "Macarena" on the radio again? Probably not. Yet those were big hits in their day which are also one-hit wonders.

@Guru - we should stop wasting our time trying to explain to the clueless how successful stations BECOME successful. Clearly you can't teach those who don't want to learn (with the notable exception of KXRX - that person made it plain they DO want to learn).

 

[TVradioguru]

Agreed on all three comments.

Hobbyists or listeners are certainly entitled to their own personal opinion. As usual however, when a hobbyist speaks with authority as if somehow they know more than long-tenured professionals or speak on behalf of all radio listeners, then I can't resist pointing out the error and usually why it is an incorrect assumption.

In this discussion I believe my point has been made and I've made an effort to educate those who are sincerely interested in being educated. The rest can continue tilting at windmills in fantasy land.

 

[RadioStarOne]

It's really quite simple: One oldies fan's list of favorite songs while being similar with another's is never the same. One's treasure is another fan's garbage! Thank goodness for the mp-3 players, who needs radio for music, those days are over for most older folks.

 

[radioguy123]

Don't know about anyone else but I find this thread interesting. Couple of points, stations need to play the top hits regardless of format. KVI should play about 400, they are playing a few more and that may not be smart. Second, the game is to make money. KVI is an AM so playing weekend paid programming like KIXI, KOMO, KTTH, KIRO is all part of making money on AM these days. Same thing on weekend TV. Third, 92% of the population still tunes in to radio, down from 94% a few years ago. That is still a big number. Why do they tune in: local news, information, contests, personalities, but I believe there is one more reason. People tune in because radio is the counter to Pandora or your I-Pod. In theory a programming professional is sifting through new music and putting together a mix that hopefully you will listen to and eventually put on your I-Pod. For an oldies station it is sifting through thousands of oldies to create a mix that you might enjoy.

Before I-pods there were cassettes, eight tracks, CD's mixes, mini discs and the list goes on. In the end contemporary radio is about someone choosing cool music in a format, personalities, contests and being local. Those who program the best, get the biggest ratings. If they don't program well they lose their jobs. That really hasn't changed and maybe is why 92% of population still tune in. It's snowing out now, I will turn to a local radio station to keep me up to date as I drive to work, not my i-pod.

 

[klutch00]

I'm not going to waste my time citing specific quotes from the past few posts - just some comments:

@ "klutch00" - how many successful radio stations have you programmed? I know the answer - ZERO. You clearly don't get it and never will.

I'll confess, you're correct on your first point! At the same time I have two friend in the business; one of whom is an AE at one relatively small AM and the other is a DJ at another. Both of them have informed me over the years as to what goes on in the business. I also monitor things fairly closely and have an idea as to what might and won't work.

@pbf1 - there are exceptions to every rule. Want to hear "You Light Up My Life" or "Macarena" on the radio again? Probably not. Yet those were big hits in their day which are also one-hit wonders.

Again, while there are songs which received much hype when released like the ones you mentioned here, there are others which fell by the wayside for no good reason. Now, on an oldies station, there's no reason why you couldn't go deep with artists like the Beatles, Supremes, Rolling Stones, Beach Boys and Creedence Clearwater Revival. Granted, "Sympathy For The Devil" would probably be inappropriate, but virtually all of these artists top-40 hits as well as some venerable album cuts (i.e. "here Comes The Sun"; "Norwegian Wood"; "Michelle" and "All My Lovin'") could work. Similar considerations could be made for artists like Elton John, Carole King, Three Dog Night, Petula Clark, J. Geils Band and probably several others. I was listening to WROW on line this weekend and heard them play "Danny's Song" by Loggins and Messina; a song which never broke the top-40 yet is still a venerable record. While this station isn't considered 'oldies' (MOR is probably a more appropriate term), they are tied for tenth place overall and are the second highest rated AM in the New York capital area.

@Guru - we should stop wasting our time trying to explain to the clueless how successful stations BECOME successful. Clearly you can't teach those who don't want to learn (with the notable exception of KXRX - that person made it plain they DO want to learn).

I doubt I'm clueless; maybe a bit radical, but I do have some idea about what is going on! Oh, and on your comment about a high quality analog AM transmission being 'dumb' in 2010 (stereo or otherwise)? If something doesn't happen soon, AM radio will be drastically whittled down to maybe a few hundred stations if that many if something isn't done about the transmission standards soon. FTR I wouldn't want to see total deletion of the band as I see it can be useful particularly in emergencies.

And to 'Guru', while I'll confess I don't know everything, I do know about what's going on in the Baltimore-Washington markets. FWIW I live in that area and am a regular listener to WBAL and to a lesser degree WTOP. You have to understand that these stations serve two different markets and are two different formats. The former is a news/talker out of Baltimore and has recently added more news programming during drive times (I probably stated this earlier). They are probably without question one of the better news/talkers around and probably the best that either Baltimore or Washington have to offer. The latter is all-news out of Washington, D. C. Now I will say that WMAL which is probably the 'premier' news/talker in Washington has experienced some ratings attrition recently over the last several years. They have been relying on more syndication in recent times.

For more on reaction to the KVI change, please check out:
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/106489348.html#idc-cover

 

[semoochie]

While I agree that KVI's playlist should be limited, I don't believe that 6os & 70s is the way to go because I don't think an AM can attract those demos, in the face of a similarly formatted FM in KJR. If they keep the format, I think it will eventually become a replacement for Adult Standards, with emphasis on late 50s through about 1970.

 

[bobmathers]

KVI can most certainly succeed if they run a larger than usual library, even one consisting of 1500-2000 titles. The secret is in the way those songs are programmed. I'm doing it with an AM 30 miles outside of Baltimore. We have no signal in the city, but our share (small yet consistent as it is) in the metro outpaces half of the AM's licensed to the city. Thank the Lord we're up dollar-wise over last year. And yes, we do have 1500-2000 songs in the format. Look, people will listen to music on AM if the total package is worth listening to. Why would you limit yourself to the same familiar yet shopworn 400 titles? Sure, ya gotta play 'em - and you should play 'em - but why not throw in the oh wows, discos, 80's & 90's pop (where compatible), Rydell, Fats, and Haley and bubblegum with (in KVI's case) some Wailers, Hendrix and Electric Prunes local crossover for the flavor as well?

Now if you say you miss out by failing to stay with a small and safe playlist which many say is the only way they can get numbers in the book on an oldies format (AM or FM), are you aware of the recent USA Today article confirming Baby Boomers have most of the spendable income in a very sluggish economy? Which of course is not a news flash, yet remains contrary to ad agency dogma which states anyone over 55 is irrelevant. Well, those hip oldsters show no hesitancy in spending their cashola if they want what's being advertised. And many boomers I know simply chuckle at agencies' bullheaded insistence that they are irrelevant.

if a good sales team is worth its salt, they'll get out and sell ideas and target the 45 plus demo to larger local directs who are grateful for any kind of foot traffic and qualified buyers in hopes of making money. Works for us back here and we have a lot of signal limitations. With KVI's monster signal, they can get some numbers too (at least a 2.5 12+) and achieve tremendous success IF they do it right. And I'm pullin' for 'em.

 

[TVradioguru]

Why would you limit yourself to the same familiar yet shopworn 400 titles? Sure, ya gotta play 'em - and you should play 'em - but why not throw in the oh wows, discos, 80's & 90's pop (where compatible), Rydell, Fats, and Haley and bubblegum with (in KVI's case) some Wailers, Hendrix and Electric Prunes local crossover for the flavor as well?

Because if you don't take the time to test the songs, you risk leaving a lot of potential TSL on the table. And no, Electric Prunes, The Archies, etc., don't test well. If risking loss of 75% of your audience with tune-out is worth saying that you play unusual or forgotten artists 30 miles from Baltimore, good on you. My stations are more interested in running successful operations than a personal radio jukebox.

if a good sales team is worth its salt, they'll get out and sell ideas and target the 45 plus demo to larger local directs who are grateful for any kind of foot traffic and qualified buyers in hopes of making money. Works for us back here and we have a lot of signal limitations. With KVI's monster signal, they can get some numbers too (at least a 2.5 12+) and achieve tremendous success IF they do it right. And I'm pullin' for 'em.

KVI doesn't have a monster signal. That being said, I hope they can pull something out of the fire too, but there is a big differrence between succeeding and survival. Sounds as if you're more interested in survival.

 

[scott salvatori]

thanks bob mathers for chiming in, and not hiding behind a CB handle. i bet there are dozens of others out there successfully programming AM radio outside the tested 400 song oldies hit list as well. a lot of what you stated in your post, is right on! including the 45+ demo as a prime advertising demographic, and how to program in those songs outside the burned out 400. it takes a talented programmer like yourself, who knows the music, and has a natural programming sense, and uses tested songs not as the bible, but as a useful tool. there are those self proclaimed radio gurus, who have drank the corporate programming S.O.P. kool-aid for so many years. all they know is follow the corporate pack leaders, instead of grow a pair and risk being the leader. its a delicate balance. some have it, most don't, and have to rely only on generic testing, and corporate system protocols 100%.

most people ive come in contact with through the years, have complained about the pathetic major market burned out, tight oldies playlists. i ask: who's doing the testing? how many people are being tested? .000000000000000001% of the listening population?

when XM and sirius merged in late 08, they eliminated 2/3 of their vast XM 6, 60's playlist. must have been the tv and radio guru programming logic going down here? listeners complained loudly! when lou simon took over the programming in sept 09, the playlist was expanded, back to where the listeners wanted.

 

[dunno]

Few things.

KVI signal's good. 5kw non direct on Puget Sounds Vashon Island.
At one time there was a app to raise, Guru could most likely embellish.

Most pay to play weekend shows get 6 month contracts. Komo only has one on the weekend from what I can tell.

I agree a tighter playlist bringws more sucess, my guess is that the sale
staff is selling combo with Star, and in some cases Komo for overflow.


As a listener that tunes in and out a few times a day, I'm already burned
on some of tunes that wowed me out of the gate.

I agree with one of the posters that a few of the late 50's early 60's once every few hours would be cool to hear. TV has made many of the ones I'm thinking familiar to every age.

KVI was in the dump with the old format, this one couldn't possibly do worse, but what do I know?

Looking forward to the addition of air talent!

 

[Scoobyfan1]

As a twenty something year old who likes the oldies(yes, I do like older music), if I were running things, I would go with 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s music as far as Classic Hits/Oldies go; but mainly 50's, 60's and 70's songs, maybe a litle bit of 80s music that fits the oldies format, like a few songs from 50's/60's/70's artists that were still hitting the charts in the 80s.

Like for example: i'm listening to an 80's aircheck from KJR AM right now online(the Pat O'Day Show) and he's playing Buddy Holly, Linda Ronstadt, the Beatles and other oldies artists alongside newer songs from Chicago and Lionel Richie among others; the right 80s and 90s songs work in an oldies format, you just can't get crazy with them and play them all the time.

Of course KJR in the late 80's was a combination adult contemporary/oldies station, but with people like Pat O' Day and Gary Lockwood it worked; so with all the name DJs that KVI has maybe the oldies/classic hits format could work, you just have to run it well, and I do agree with adding some lesser played tracks and northwest music, like the Ventures, the Sonics, and a few others.

But overall KVI Oldies 2.0 can work, and I think it will work, and if it doesn't... well, I hope KVI doesn't go spanish, that would suck.