KYOT - New Format A Bummer!

[davideduardo]

I think this format can & has worked. KUKQ & KMJK lasted several years as an Urban AC when the black population was HALF what it is today.

That was also when the number of move-ins was less (nobdy except a Prescotonian had ever heard of Dewey-Humboldt) and so some of these format listeners were "settlers" who today do have other options.

Also to base listenership on race is a very corporate decision.

A format that gets 90% Black cume in other comparable markets would obligate owners to look at whether there is enough Black population or whether the fomrat can be broadened enough to still retain its focus. It's very natural to look at all demographics of a market... even lifeslyle groups... to make a decision on programming.

If you base a format sucess on demographics alone, how can there be a justification of 10-15 spanish language stations when MOST people clearly speak engilish.

Part one: the market is over 30% Hispanic, some 60% of which are Spanish dominant and another +/- 20% are bilingual. If you grew up on Spanish language music forms and soccer and such, you will listen to at least some Spanish language radio even if you are also bilingual.

Part 2. There are 6 FM formats/operations in Spanish, several of which have simulcasts to complete coverage. They are KVVA*, KLNZ, KOMR, KQMR, KHOT* and KVIB. KNAI is a shared time non-com. KSUN is a no-show AM, and we have a Spanish religious AM and an ultra-rimshot Sports AM. Even including the AM's that don't take any share, we have less than the low end number you cite. And not one of the commercial FMs is a full South Mountain C, meaning that all are lesser facilities, rimshots, etc., so serving a viable sector with a lesser signal is a reasonable thing to do.

Part 3. We have any station because the owner believes there is a profit to be made. If a format or format sector fails to produce revenue, or gets too finely split, one or more stations will change.

Between AM, FM and non-coms, there are 71 stations in the MSA. In 18-49 there are 20 to 21 shares going to Spanish language stations, so 9 formats or services is actually under what raw numbers would indicate, wich is 14 to 15 stations.

 

[XMportable]

Dave, I am not in the radio business. I am a listener. There is still waaaay too much redundancy; half those spanish language stations aren't performing. AC format is very very redundant. Three of the same in any market is too MUCH. AT what point of some of these redundant stations realize a niche may be an answer. XM is getting more & more listeners lately. The thing is how in touch our those in the industry with it's listeners. Urban AC is one of TOP formats in the nation. We can't try one Urban AC in this market; I think is possible if we can have an old school hip hop..lol Also, "Settler" population has been waaay down recently & you can thank that ol school Arpaio guy.

 

[Gregg]

There's no need to re-invent the wheel here. KTWV Los Angeles is a top 10 station that survived the Smooth Jazz melt down and can be an example to KYOT.

KTWV plays three Smooth Jazz instrumentals per hour and a mix of Urban AC (but only songs that EVERYONE can identify) and other AC titles that have some jazz or R&B influence... Sting, Norah Jones, Hall & Oates, Chicago, Santana, etc. I assume the idea is to keep the previous KTWV audience and add some younger listeners of all ethnic backgrounds who don't want too many instrumentals. When they put contest winners on the air, it sounds like a mix of white, Latin and black listeners call in. I assume Phoenix's ethnic mix is similar to LA's but with more retirees. So The Wave's soft sound, softer than KOST, LA's Soft AC station, can be copied by KYOT.

I happen to like The Wave and listen on line. As I said, the station is always in the Top 10 in LA and I've heard it's usually Top 5 among 25-54 women. That should bring in the advertisers.

Gregg
[email protected]

 

[johndavis]

Urban AC is one of TOP formats in the nation.

...in markets with a heavy African American population. This isn't Atlanta

I happen to like the format, but the last station to try that format in Phoenix wasn't known for paying its bills or employees on time. Even if the next station that would try it were better capitalized, it wouldn't last long if it remained true to being an Urban station.

 

[XMportable]

It did pay it's bills, the problem was the interference with 107.1 Laviva radio if i remember correctly. They had more money...They had to pay their bills from 1991 -2001 right???!!!???

 

[beauduran]

Mega tired to tweak to a pure Urban AC format back in about '06 or so under the consultancy of Steve Smith. It was right around the time Movin signed on and it was the best gift the Mega's owners could have given to their new startup competitor. Droves of Mega's listeners left the station for Movin' and a station that had at the time been sitting in the mid-1's 12+ suddenly fell under a share. I don't think the experiment lasted more than 6 months.

That isn't exactly damning evidence of the format's failure in the market though, given Mega's history of tweaking all the time. However when we made the decision to change the format on KNRJ from Dance there was an internal debate brought up by one of the managers who didn't want the hip hop format we were working on, instead pushing for Urban AC. Obviously from a cluster standpoint this would have made no sense as putting that format on KNRJ would have directly hurt Mega the most. But the most damning evidence I found against the decision was this nugget of research I found at the time (posted verbatim from a memo)...

• How Urban AC fares in markets with similar ethnic makeup to Phoenix (4% black, 27% Hispanic):
o Los Angeles (7% Black, 40% Hispanic): KJLH (with similar signal limitations to KNRJ) showed a .5 rating in the latest trend. Compared to KHHT (Similar to Mega format) with a 2.7
o Denver (5% Black, 20% Hispanic): Has NO Urban AC
o Las Vegas (10% Black, 24% Hispanic): Has NO Urban AC
o Riverside/San Bernardino (9% Black, 44% Hispanic): Has NO Urban AC (KJLH from LA does not show in ratings/KHHT has a 3.0)

The reality is that the formats currently on Mega and The Beat are as close to Urban anything as you can get in Phoenix with any sort of success.

 

[XMportable]

Again with the existence of several redundancies who's to say what works. Kexx 103.9 doesn't really work....It's niche but hey their still on the air. Also, Urban AC top radio format..... United states black pop. = 12%. How does that happen? White & Hispanic listen once they are exposed. Six months is not enough time for exposure. Magik 107 was ten years on LESS black population than today.????? Sometimes out of box thinking might work...I dunno I'm sticking with my XM..LOL

 

[johndavis]

It did pay it's bills, the problem was the interference with 107.1 Laviva radio if i remember correctly. They had more money...They had to pay their bills from 1991 -2001 right???!!!???

No. From the very beginning that station had difficulty making payroll and bounced a lot of paychecks.

Ask anyone who worked there.

Mobley tried to sign it on as a live & local station, and the billing never could pay for the cost of labor. It didn't take a year before he was trying to get the satellite Urban AC format my employer was running on 1230 away from us so he could automate, but our ownership played hardball with ABC to keep it intact. (Our overhead was a lot lower, so we had a great profit margin and they didn't want to mess that up.)

Later, when Chancellor owned 1230, they flipped it to classic country to flank attack KNIX after Owens did a "Wild Country 103.5" flank attack on KMLE. That made The Touch available and Mobley could finally automate 24/7 for the final years of KMJK's life.

Even with the lower overhead, KMJK couldn't overcome their debt. Mobley was pushed out; the new owners sold the station to Entravision and moved the call sign to one of their stations in Kansas City.

So, even though I was in charge of an Urban AC format in Phoenix, why am I not optimistic about someone doing the format again?

Billing.

Kiss 1230 never made much money. However, that station was ridiculously cheap to run. You had my salary (which was part-time for several years), and you had the power bill for a 1KW solid state transmitter. You had one or two sales people working off of commission. The rest of the operating expenses were shared with at first one and later three other stations.

We billed enough the first week of every month to pay the light bill and my salary. The other three weeks went straight to the bottom line. But that was the early 1990's. Sundance bought 101.5 and 1230 for cash and the company had no debt until it bought KOY AM/FM.

It was a great use of a crappy AM station, and there were no other formats at the time that would do better on that frequency. Kind of the same reasoning that moved KOY from 550 to 1230.

Today? Good luck finding someone with a low debt load trying to run a radio station. Either you have a cluster of stations and a big note to pay or you're a small rim-shot moving in who paid too much for too little signal. It's Mobley Broadcasting all over again. Even if you keep your expenses low, you need a format that gives you better return to pay down the debt. You can't pay the bills on $10 spots.

 

[DJ_Perry]

They can try and try and try (and I am a big fan of Urban AC) but the future is FYI 95-5. This is just to satisfy the "powers that be" that they tried something else besides smooth jazz.

I haven't listened to the new rotation, but the current book shows a gain over the previous month. I noticed a post comparing 95.5 it to KUKQ? I really doubt they play Janet, Timex Social Club, Oran Juice Jones, or Grandmaster Flash.

 

[XMportable]

John,
I find it hard to believe they couldn't pay the bills for TEN YEARS...Is there something else I'm missing?

 

[XMportable]

Also, when you have a crappy signal, this was the main problem. I could only get magic 107 in the car. Also, who wants to listen to AM. I think if the format is done right from the beggining, IT CAN compete. It's also funny that in other cities around the whole nation thatUrban AC is given a CRAPPY SIGNAL(You only have the option to stream online..LOL). If Mega is doing ok with ol school, the music is not that different from the new school especially with the new soul evolution. I mean black urban music inspired the whole music industry in America from it's inception, but I can't get 1 urban AC. I can get 20 CHR"s , 30 AC's, 5 variations of a rock format, & two countries (its exaggeration ok..LOL) Right now if I listen to Phoenix, AZ radio at all I listen to KVIT only because they have the heart to try something NEW. Mostly, I will be XMing it, If I see the valley radio offer more choice then I can get rid of that XM bill I shouldn't really have to pay to hear my music. I feel for the smooth Jazz fans as well.

 

[johndavis]

John,
I find it hard to believe they couldn't pay the bills for TEN YEARS...Is there something else I'm missing?

Yes. You're missing the fact that the format doesn't make money in Phoenix like it does in the South and East coast.

And that's why you won't hear anyone try it again unless there is a serious population shift in the Valley.

Radio is not just for your entertainment, it is a business.

 

[XMportable]

I understand, but you're overlooking that signal thing I put out there. That is a BIG one. They won't listen if they can't hear--Jingle for majik 107 LOL

 

[johndavis]

I understand, but you're overlooking that signal thing I put out there. That is a BIG one. They won't listen if they can't hear--Jingle for majik 107 LOL

What's better? A station that everyone can hear that targets an audience that doesn't live there, or a station that nobody can hear that targets an audience that doesn't live there?

Either way you're going to get a 0.8.

 

[XMportable]

What's better first, is a station you can hear.... We'll never know always been crappy signals or AM here in Phoenix. A good signal is a game changer. Most people that I know that liked Majik didn't listen because of the signal..barely getting in the car & forget it on the home stereo. Whats better a 3rd redundant format thats already working on one or 2 stations, or a fresh new format. I think a new style format will beat that 3rd of 4th redundant one any day......XM radio is BIG because of choice..there is room to steer listeners back from XM to FM, but only with variety.

 

[Gregg]

I think we're having a problem with terminology. Urban AC vs. Rhythmic AC vs. Smooth AC.

A) Urban AC implies a station that has mostly African-American DJs, plays almost all African-American artists and is involved in the black community. May run Joyner or Harvey in morning drive and maybe Michael Baisden in PM drive.

B) Rhythmic AC implies a station that has DJs and listeners of all backgrounds, perhaps the largest group are Hispanic women who speak mostly English. Many of these stations picked up the short-lived Whoopi Goldberg show for morning drive.

C) Smooth AC is like KTWV Los Angeles, the station I think KYOT should copy. A soft mix of AC vocals that have some R&B or jazz influence and a few jazz instrumentals per hour. Soething to bridge the gap between Smooth Jazz, whose listeners are falling out of the 25-54 age group, and Rhythmic AC which is too uptempo and contemporary for most 40+ listeners.

I don't think there's enough of a market in Phoenix for A, there already are stations doing B. So KYOT should embrace C.


Gregg
[email protected]

 

[XMportable]

Greg, the problem with C in Phoenix is that it is a very very cautious C. Played out smooth jazz & ol school hits played 50 times a day is a turn off...It will be a turn off to smooth jazz & urban AC fans. Are there really enough in the middle. I think most people like either, or; not BOTH. It's hard to say though, but I'm sure we'll find out in 6 months..... ;D LOL

 

[Hamp]

I think what would satistify listeners/fans of Urban AC/Smooth Jazz would be a "dayparted" Smooth AC station on KYOT. Between 6am to 6pm, have more of a mixture of smooth jazz and familar R&B hits, then from 6pm until 6am, go a little bit deeper with the adult Urban flavor with artists such as: Maxwell, Jill Scott, Kem, Charlie Wilson, etc. Build the audience during the daytime with your known favorites (George Benson, Al Jarreau, Earth, Wind And Fire, Jeffrey Osborne) and expose them during the evening (after winding down from work) with more deeper Urban Adult favorites. This way, if you have the audience locked in all day, they will more than likely stay at night AND will be exposed to artists they may not have known before that they may like. It isn't a full proof formula, but it would be worth it for KYOT to try.

 

[johndavis]

I think what would satistify listeners/fans of Urban AC/Smooth Jazz would be a "dayparted" Smooth AC station on KYOT. Between 6am to 6pm, have more of a mixture of smooth jazz and familar R&B hits, then from 6pm until 6am, go a little bit deeper with the adult Urban flavor with artists such as: Maxwell, Jill Scott, Kem, Charlie Wilson, etc. Build the audience during the daytime with your known favorites (George Benson, Al Jarreau, Earth, Wind And Fire, Jeffrey Osborne) and expose them during the evening (after winding down from work) with more deeper Urban Adult favorites. This way, if you have the audience locked in all day, they will more than likely stay at night AND will be exposed to artists they may not have known before that they may like. It isn't a full proof formula, but it would be worth it for KYOT to try.

This isn't Washington DC. You could put 100 Phonecians in a room and ask them who is Jill Scott and 95 of them might think she is a reporter on channel 3.

If there's anything I learned working for the AAA version of the Zone, and the first few years of KYOT, people don't listen to the radio to be led on a musical adventure. If you don't play what people know, they will turn it off because they think you're playing "weird" music. The more you step away from what the audience knows, they'll turn it off, not up. Even if it's good for them, they're all grown up and you can't make them eat their vegetables.

Meanwhile, according to yes.com, a recent set on KYOT had Warren Hill into Prince's I Would Die 4 U into Michael McDonald's I Keep Forgettin'... just because you know the songs, does it make them the right songs?

 

[kwthom]

<...>people don't listen to the radio to be led on a musical adventure. If you don't play what people know, they will turn it off because they think you're playing "weird" music. The more you step away from what the audience knows, they'll turn it off, not up. Even if it's good for them, they're all grown up and you can't make them eat their vegetables.

Granted, the idea is to keep people in front of the radio, so the sponsors get the 'ears' of those they've paid to hawk their wares to, but then again...sad to say, but you are programming to the lowest common denominator.

Rating continue to prove that time and time again.

::sigh::