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KYW no longer farthest EAST TV/Radio station with a K callsign...

> Here in Dallas, TX:
>
> Radio: WBAP-AM 820
> TV: WFAA-TV (ch. 8, the ABC affiliate)
>
> Other than that, its almost all K's, on both radio and TV)
>
> By the way, what is the difference between K and W? Why
> does it matter?
>
> Thanks!
>
> ~CTL
>
The current dividing line between K and W calls is the Mississippi River. This wasn't always the case, it was further west in the early to mid 20s, which placed Dallas/Ft. Worth in the W zone. This is why WBAP, WFAA, WTAW, etc. exist.

Most TV/FM stations with anomalous calls are or were once paired with AM stations because the calls were originally assigned to the AMs, as FM and TV broadcast service didn't exist yet.
 
K vs. W

> I never knew there was a difference between K and W?
> Ofcourse, being just a listener/viewer, I wouldn't know. I
> have noticed that here in Dallas, Texas, almost all stations
> on both television and radio begin with K, with only a few
> exceptions (WBAP-AM 820, WFAA-TV ch. 8, both ABC affiliates,
> both partners). But I never knew why?
>
> So, what is the difference between K and W? Why does it
> matter?
>
> (and do you think it is a coincidence that some of the only
> W's in Dallas are partnered?)
>
> And, another question about this topic... does the number of
> letters matter? Here, I can only think on ONE station that
> has 3 letters, and it also happens to begin with W. Its the
> oldest station here: WRR-FM 101.1
>
> Is all of this a coincidence? So, whats the diff btwn W and
> K? 3 letters and 4?

Only us ancient ones would know the answer, and I qualify, so ...

Originally, all AM stations had three letter calls. Four letter calls came only after the Federal Radio Commission (forerunner to today's FCC) realized they would run out of call letters very quickly as the medium of radio grew.

Stations like WRR-FM Dallas (and KGB-FM San Diego) had their three letter calls as a result of being co-owned with a three letter AM. They are allowed to keep them even though the associated AM has changed to four letters; once you give up a three letter call, it is gone forever. There have only been two exceptions made over the years: One was when KBLX/Berkeley went back to the KRE calls, and one when the owners of KKHJ/Los Angeles successfully petitioned for a return to KHJ, using the unique argument that they could not say their four letter call sign in Spanish without being offensive.

As for the K versus W: Originally, the dividing line between the two was the Central/Mountain time zone line, with W assigned east of that line and K assigned west of it. (Again, there were some exceptions, such as KYW/Cleveland and KDKA/Pittsburgh, which were assigned before the east/west policy was created.) However, due to the sparse population of the Mountain time zone, and less number of stations as a result, plus the higher density of population and more stations in the Central and Eastern time zones, again made it probable that W calls would be exhausted before K calls, so the dividing line was moved to the Mississippi River. Stations now in the K zone who already had W calls were, again, allowed to keep them, but if they give them up, they lose them forever.

So WRR-FM has two reasons not to change call letters: Three letters, and a K zone W call.<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
> By the way, what is the difference between K and W? Why
> does it matter?

A better question: Why did you think it necessary to ask that question TWICE in the same thread?<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
> Though the FCC may deep-six most of these, due to indecency.
> If you can't have "WKKK", you possibly can's have "NUDE",
> either.

Okay, then explain this call letter assignment:
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.fccinfo.com/CMDProEngine.php?sCurrentService=FM&tabSearchType=Appl&sAppIDNumber=192615>http://www.fccinfo.com/CMDProEngine.php?sCurrentService=FM&tabSearchType=Appl&sAppIDNumber=192615</a> <P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
> Okay, then explain this call letter assignment:

Don't forget KCUF has been issued several times. I believe a station in Colorado presently has it. I'd LOVE those call letters. I can already hear the jingle, "KCUF...Spell it backwards!"
 
> > Here in Dallas, TX:
> >
> > Radio: WBAP-AM 820
> > TV: WFAA-TV (ch. 8, the ABC affiliate)
> >
> > Other than that, its almost all K's, on both radio and TV)
>
> >
> > By the way, what is the difference between K and W? Why
> > does it matter?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > ~CTL
> >
> The current dividing line between K and W calls is the
> Mississippi River. This wasn't always the case, it was
> further west in the early to mid 20s, which placed
> Dallas/Ft. Worth in the W zone. This is why WBAP, WFAA,
> WTAW, etc. exist.
>
> Most TV/FM stations with anomalous calls are or were once
> paired with AM stations because the calls were originally
> assigned to the AMs, as FM and TV broadcast service didn't
> exist yet.
>

I posted this website at the bottom of the thread. But I guess people don't read that far down

Anyway click here --> <a target="_blank" href=http://earlyradiohistory.us/3myst.htm#background>For K/W History and 3 Letter Call Station Info</a>


Go to the top of the page for complete index<P ID="signature">______________
Once I figured out the meaning of life....Then I forgot to write it down.</P>
 
> > Okay, then explain this call letter assignment:
>
> Don't forget KCUF has been issued several times. I believe
> a station in Colorado presently has it. I'd LOVE those call
> letters. I can already hear the jingle, "KCUF...Spell it
> backwards!"
>
Well I would say NUDE is hardly able to excit the same emotions as K K K would to the average person.

And KCUF would be objectionable but I think that most people would see it as said something along the lines of K-CUFF.

<P ID="signature">______________
Once I figured out the meaning of life....Then I forgot to write it down.</P>
 
> > Though the FCC may deep-six most of these, due to
> indecency.
> > If you can't have "WKKK", you possibly can's have "NUDE",
> > either.
>
> Okay, then explain this call letter assignment:
http://www.fccinfo.com/CMDProEngine.p> hp?sCurrentService=FM&tabSearchType=Appl&sAppIDNumber=192615
>

I was about to say, that was a bad example, because WKKK Konnecticut's Klassic Kountry almost happened. I think that CP is expired now, though.

Back in the days of 3-letter calls, was WTF ever assigned anywhere? The acronym wasn't really ubiquitous then like it is now. If I ever start a ahem, part 15 station, that will be my legal ID. If it's been used before, I'd play off the original station's history.
 
Re: Guam

> > Being at about 170 degrees west longitude, wouldn't their
> > day start LAST?
>
> No, because they are across the International Date Line from
> the rest of the U.S.
>
> Explained here, in the first paragraph:
> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/guam.htm
>

Sorry. I got them confused with American Samoa. :(<P ID="signature">______________
#13 Dan Marino...2005 Football Hall Of Fame Inductee :)</P>
 
> > > If I ever start a ahem, part 15 station, that will
> be my legal ID. If it's been used before, I'd play off the
> original station's history.
>

*Part 15????*

ixnay
 
*Part 15????*

> > > > If I ever start a ahem, part 15 station, that will
> > be my legal ID. If it's been used before, I'd play off
> the
> > original station's history.
> >
>
> *Part 15????*

Go here for everything you ever wanted to know about Part 15 ...

<a target="_blank" href=http://www.radio-info.com/mods/posts?Board=community>http://www.radio-info.com/mods/posts?Board=community</a><P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
> I have noticed that here in Dallas, Texas, almost all stations
> on both television and radio begin with K, with only a few
> exceptions (WBAP-AM 820, WFAA-TV ch. 8, both ABC affiliates,
> both partners). But I never knew why?

For the record, WBAP and WFAA are not associated with each other. WBAP is owned by ABC and WFAA is owned by Belo. There was a WFAA radio up until the early 80s or so.
 
> > I have noticed that here in Dallas, Texas, almost all
> stations
> > on both television and radio begin with K, with only a few
>
> > exceptions (WBAP-AM 820, WFAA-TV ch. 8, both ABC
> affiliates,
> > both partners). But I never knew why?
>
> For the record, WBAP and WFAA are not associated with each
> other. WBAP is owned by ABC and WFAA is owned by Belo. There
> was a WFAA radio up until the early 80s or so.
>
Oh, ya, sorry Billy. I know.

What I meant was... they are "partners" as in they have a deal to use each other's programing. WBAP weather comes from WFAA (usually Greg Fields) and WFAA advertises Mark Davis and other shows on TV.

Sorry for the mis-speak.

AND THANKS KMRICHARDS FOR THE EXPLANAITION!

~CTL

<P ID="signature">______________
"Welcome to radio-info.com...where we hate everything!!!!! You people are radio's equivalent to the two old guys in the balcony on the Muppet show!"
~FoReal?</P>
 
Re: K vs. W

> As for the K versus W: Originally, the dividing line
> between the two was the Central/Mountain time zone line,
> with W assigned east of that line and K assigned west of it.

A very minor picking of nits: the line was actually the western state line of ND, SD, NE, KS, OK and TX. There were, in fact, a very small number of "W" calls in parts of those states that were in the Mountain Time Zone. (The station that's now KTSM El Paso began life with a "W" call.)

Also, it should be noted that there is in fact a very deep (albeit obsolete) connection between WFAA and WBAP: the two stations shared a pair of AM frequencies between them from the thirties until 1970. Each station had half time on 820, with its 50 kW class I-A signal, and whichever station didn't have 820 used 570, with a very good 5 kW signal. Regardless of which station was operating on 820, that facility always had the NBC (Red) affiliation, while ABC (Blue) was always on 570.

All that, mind you, for decades during which the stations were otherwise fierce competitors in the TV arena (what's now NBC's KXAS-TV 5 was WBAP-TV), and during which their owners were brutal newspaper rivals (Amon Carter's Fort Worth Star-Telegram owned WBAP, while the Dallas Morning News owned WFAA.)

s<P ID="signature">______________
Tower Site Calendar 2006 JUST RELEASED! - <a target="_blank" href=http://www.fybush.com/nerw.html#calendar>www.fybush.com</a></P>
 
Re: K vs. W

> Also, it should be noted that there is in fact a very deep
> (albeit obsolete) connection between WFAA and WBAP: the two
> stations shared a pair of AM frequencies between them from
> the thirties until 1970. Each station had half time on 820,
> with its 50 kW class I-A signal, and whichever station
> didn't have 820 used 570, with a very good 5 kW signal.

Which station had the third quarter? :) Seriously, what do you mean by "half time"? Did one station spend the 12mid-12noon hours on 820 and the other on 570, then they flip flopped?

ixnay
 
Re: K vs. W

> Which station had the third quarter? :) Seriously, what do
> you mean by "half time"? Did one station spend the
> 12mid-12noon hours on 820 and the other on 570, then they
> flip flopped?

Not quite. The flip occurred several times a day. Read this for a bit of insight:
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.bostonradio.org/bri/v04/msg02032.html>http://www.bostonradio.org/bri/v04/msg02032.html</a>

The time share, which had begun in the 1930s, ended on May 1, 1970 when the owners of WBAP (the Fort Worth Star-Telegram) took full control of the 50,000 watt signal at 820 by offering $3.5 million to WFAA (owned by the Dallas Morning News), which then took full control of the 570 signal.<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
Re: K vs. W

> > Which station had the third quarter? :) Seriously, what
> do
> > you mean by "half time"? Did one station spend the
> > 12mid-12noon hours on 820 and the other on 570, then they
> > flip flopped?
>
> Not quite. The flip occurred several times a day. Read
> this for a bit of insight:
> http://www.bostonradio.org/bri/v04/msg02032.html
>
> The time share, which had begun in the 1930s, ended on May
> 1, 1970 when the owners of WBAP (the Fort Worth
> Star-Telegram) took full control of the 50,000 watt signal
> at 820 by offering $3.5 million to WFAA (owned by the Dallas
> Morning News), which then took full control of the 570
> signal.
>
Wasn't there something like that in Chicago back in the
'30s: WENR/WLS sharing time and flipflopping as WBAP and
WFAA did?

Back to topic: I have to question whether the three-letter
calls are gone forever when a station goes to four letters.
Cases in point: Channel 8 in Cleveland went from WJW to
WJKW in the late '70s, and is once again WJW. Channel 4
in Detroit started as WWJ and became WDIV when Post-
Newsweek bought it in the '70s. Channel 62, which started
as WGPR, now has the WWJ call letters.

And a K can go back to a W: Channel 4 in San Antonio has
gone from WOAI to KMOL and back to WOAI.
 
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