KYW No Longer Says "1060", Only "103.9."

[Miguelito]

Both of those things have existed for ten years, and we haven't seen a big demand for HD radio. If they are included for free when they buy their cars, people might use them. Otherwise, they want it to work on their standard radio, which isn't possible. The other issue is very few electronics manufacturers make radios any more.

KYW has been available on HD radio for a while, and they have more listeners now that they have an FM station.

Well, I think everyone here knows the botched history of HD radio. And that what resulted were HD side-channels that initially didn't "lock in" well, then were largely neglected, and eventually were used for a whole other purpose--to feed translators.

In the thought experiment I presented, consumers might be hearing an easier-to-understand concept--certainly easier to accept than the silly "stations between the stations" tag from yesteryear. People know of the AM band...meaning, they know it exists...they just also know that it sounds terrible and there's no longer much of interest there. Stations "between stations" from of a whole new technology that requires buying a new receiver (which was pretty expensive at the time) is a lot more foreign an idea than "those stations my parents and grandparents used to listen to [or that I may even remember from my own childhood] suddenly have spoken word [or even music!] formats that I wish I could hear."

If people begin to hear that AM stations now sound as clear as FM stations...and that they now have compelling content...and that they're available in their friend's or family member's or co-worker's new car, it could start a trend of consumers looking for that feature when shopping for their own next car. I don't think it's an impossibility that automakers could take note...and if the automakers want electronics companies to manufacture more HD receivers, that's what the electronics companies will do. After all, people have decided to buy one car over another for reasons that were a lot dumber than the radio.

 

[TheBigA]

I don't think it's an impossibility that automakers could take note...and if the automakers want electronics companies to manufacture more HD receivers, that's what the electronics companies will do. After all, people have decided to buy one car over another for reasons that were a lot dumber than the radio.

You realize electronics manufacturers are in China, right? Unless HD becomes a worldwide phenomenon, the Chinese companies won't start building HD radios. That's been the problem here for 20 years. It's not like when US companies made radios.

 

[AbrahamJSimpson]

What’s going to convince the manufacturers to put that in? People have gravitated to streaming (or playing their own library), to satellite, or FM. Honestly, there’s no way there will be a trend of anything started because people are discussing that new AM sound in Billy’s new ride. (I’m picturing those old 70s commercials where someone is shocked…shocked, I say…to learn that Maxwell House was just as good as the “fancy” coffee.)

Beyond that aspect…innovative and profitable are two different things. People could come up with all kinds of ideas that might charitably be called innovative, or at least different. Doesn’t mean there’s advertisers who want to support it or make a go of the listener supported model. There’s a better chance to make a go of it on platforms with easier and consistent national/global reach.

 

[Miguelito]

You realize electronics manufacturers are in China, right? Unless HD becomes a worldwide phenomenon, the Chinese companies won't start building HD radios. That's been the problem here for 20 years. It's not like when US companies made radios.

It's supply and demand. If auto manufacturers say they want it and will pay for it, the suppliers will produce it, regardless of where the factories are.

 

[Miguelito]

What’s going to convince the manufacturers to put that in? People have gravitated to streaming (or playing their own library), to satellite, or FM. Honestly, there’s no way there will be a trend of anything started because people are discussing that new AM sound in Billy’s new ride. (I’m picturing those old 70s commercials where someone is shocked…shocked, I say…to learn that Maxwell House was just as good as the “fancy” coffee.)

Beyond that aspect…innovative and profitable are two different things. People could come up with all kinds of ideas that might charitably be called innovative, or at least different. Doesn’t mean there’s advertisers who want to support it or make a go of the listener supported model. There’s a better chance to make a go of it on platforms with easier and consistent national/global reach.

Maxwell House is piss. LOL

 

[Miguelito]

And again, it's just a thought experiment. I'm certainly not saying any of that will happen. I mean, the first step would be that the industry as a whole would care enough about the AM band to revive it. Outside of a small number of owners who have primarily AM's, I doubt there's really a lot of interest.

 

[TheBigA]

It's supply and demand. If auto manufacturers say they want it and will pay for it, the suppliers will produce it, regardless of where the factories are.

People want radio for free. They don't even want to pay extra for satellite. If the radio is installed, a small percentage might subscribe. Otherwise, no. Plus manufacturers have to pay a royalty to include the HD chip. There's no money in it for them. Believe me, I've been down this road a few times.

I mean, the first step would be that the industry as a whole would care enough about the AM band to revive it. Outside of a small number of owners who have primarily AM's, I doubt there's really a lot of interest.

The FCC owns the AM & FM band. Radio companies are just licensees. The only thing the FCC has offered is FM translators. So that's how much the FCC cares about AM.

 

[semoochie]

And again, it's just a thought experiment. I'm certainly not saying any of that will happen. I mean, the first step would be that the industry as a whole would care enough about the AM band to revive it. Outside of a small number of owners who have primarily AM's, I doubt there's really a lot of interest.

If you can get the same stations from a stream, not to mention thousands more then what's the point? Is there a big demand these days for digital buggy whips?

 

[AbrahamJSimpson]

Maxwell House is piss. LOL

Just like AM LOL

 

[JBraddock]

The only problem is you can't pick up digital AM on a traditional radio. So you would need to buy a new radio.

The HD radio would have to be provided standard or as an option packaged with other desirable entertainment system features in the car. No one is buying new radios without a car wrapped around them.

People want radio for free. They don't even want to pay extra for satellite. If the radio is installed, a small percentage might subscribe. Otherwise, no. Plus manufacturers have to pay a royalty to include the HD chip. There's no money in it for them. Believe me, I've been down this road a few times.

Well, except for the 34 million satellite subscribers, that's correct. And the ones paying for streaming. The rest expect that function to be bundled in with their monthly phone payment. Isn't the HD chip royalty expiring soon?

If you can get the same stations from a stream, not to mention thousands more then what's the point?

Where cell service isn't robust (beyond urban markets), OTA can still have a dashboard advantage. Whether that audience is big enough to justify the expense of updating AM infrastructure to support MA-3 transmission is an issue.

 

[CTListener]

Well, except for the 34 million satellite subscribers, that's correct.

Subscriptions, not subscribers. Many subscribers have multiple subscriptions, because each radio one owns needs a subscription of its own. So the listener who has SiriusXM available on their factory-installed car radio needs another subscription for any radio they may be using in the home or office.

Also, at any given time, hundreds of thousands -- maybe more than that -- of vehicles are sitting unsold in dealer lots, their SXM radios activated but listened to by no one. All those radios are accounted for as subscriptions by SiriusXM in a weaselly, but technically legal, method of representing its numbers to the SEC.

So satellite radio is likely a bit less of a hit with the American consumer than the rosy numbers the company puts out for public consumption would indicate it is.

 

[ixnay]

In my opinion, AM radio is already in the coffin. The dirt just has to be piled up. Sure, there are listeners now, but what about in 20 years? How many current listeners will still be alive? I can't remember the last time someone under 50 turned on AM radio. Why would they? It sounds like crap with very limited programming choices - news and talk.

Dollar a holler preaching, ethnic/Spanish, and MOYL/Classic Oldies in the style of WPTX Lexington Park, MD or WMID don't count?

 

[Miguelito]

The HD radio would have to be provided standard or as an option packaged with other desirable entertainment system features in the car. No one is buying new radios without a car wrapped around them.


Well, except for the 34 million satellite subscribers, that's correct. And the ones paying for streaming. The rest expect that function to be bundled in with their monthly phone payment. Isn't the HD chip royalty expiring soon?


Where cell service isn't robust (beyond urban markets), OTA can still have a dashboard advantage. Whether that audience is big enough to justify the expense of updating AM infrastructure to support MA-3 transmission is an issue.

LOL. I was gonna say all of that but it didn't seem worth it.

 

[TheBigA]

Well, except for the 34 million satellite subscribers, that's correct. And the ones paying for streaming. The rest expect that function to be bundled in with their monthly phone payment. Isn't the HD chip royalty expiring soon?

They get their satellite receivers for free in their cars. Even satellite subscribers aren't buying satellite radios for their homes. They listen online. AM radio listeners can do that right now for free without HD Radio. The HD royalty is required for all who use the chip. You may be talking about the patent on HD Radio, and there are lots of patents involved. Hard to say when it will become shareware.

Bottom line here is that the major radio companies are transitioning their stations onto their own streaming services. Most use iHeartRadio, but there's TuneIn or Audacy. That's what the radio companies are doing. Or they're doing what KYW did, which is transition to FM. Digital AM is not very practical for many reasons.

 

[JBraddock]

Subscriptions, not subscribers. Many subscribers have multiple subscriptions, because each radio one owns needs a subscription of its own. So the listener who has SiriusXM available on their factory-installed car radio needs another subscription for any radio they may be using in the home or office.

Also, at any given time, hundreds of thousands -- maybe more than that -- of vehicles are sitting unsold in dealer lots, their SXM radios activated but listened to by no one. All those radios are accounted for as subscriptions by SiriusXM in a weaselly, but technically legal, method of representing its numbers to the SEC.

I've been an XM subscriber for 18 years now, so I'm familiar with the system. For several years, I had 5 radio subscriptions on my account - for my home, car, office and several relatives. Now I have one subscription for the car. Streaming (included in my package) covers everywhere outside the car. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who's made that transition, so SiriusXM has had to deal with that contraction in subscriptions over the years and still seems to be growing. (BigA also pointed this out.)

Since they essentially pay to put the radios in cars, I suppose SiriusXM should be able to claim a subscription for the 3-month freebees. I seem to remember them specifying churn numbers at some point (free subscriptions not renewed). Don't know if they still do that.

They get their satellite receivers for free in their cars. Even satellite subscribers aren't buying satellite radios for their homes. They listen online. AM radio listeners can do that right now for free without HD Radio.

The satellite radio usually comes as part of an audio or trim package in mid and upper models but, yes, it's usually bundled with something else the car buyer wants.

AM listeners can only listen to the analog audio for free. For those of us over a certain age, that's no big deal. But younger people don't go there. In order for OTA AM (and FM) to achieve menu-display parity with other audio content featured in auto entertainment systems, they have to have either an HD component or provide metadata via a hybrid digital system online.

This doesn't directly apply to the Delaware Valley but, again, in regions where cell service is spotty, HD might be the only option to get the metadata on the dashboard for AM and FM. Whether the costs are reasonable will be the decider. So far, it sounds like AMs will have to cough up serious funds to bring themselves 'in-spec' to broadcast MA-3, so that may not be viable in smaller markets. An FM translator might be cheaper to implement if available.

The HD royalty is required for all who use the chip. You may be talking about the patent on HD Radio, and there are lots of patents involved. Hard to say when it will become shareware.

That will be interesting to watch. Xperi is waiving the chip royalty for MA-3 broadcasters, is it not?

Bottom line here is that the major radio companies are transitioning their stations onto their own streaming services. Most use iHeartRadio, but there's TuneIn or Audacy. That's what the radio companies are doing. Or they're doing what KYW did, which is transition to FM. Digital AM is not very practical for many reasons.

Where a cell signal or an FM is a given, that will be the way it goes. But once you get outside the interstate mesh, cell service is often unreliable and the FM band is nearly full in most markets. Are the alternatives cost-effective? That's the question. Some technology companies are betting they can sell the alternatives. We'll see what happens.

 

[AbrahamJSimpson]

But once you get outside those areas, the return on investment drops off as well

 

[TheBigA]

AM listeners can only listen to the analog audio for free. For those of us over a certain age, that's no big deal. But younger people don't go there.

They can listen to digital AM right now for free ONLINE. They don't need an HD radio, and they don't need to buy another radio. Listening online appears to be a growing thing, more than AM radio listening. Online streaming is digital radio.

My point is that very few radio owners seem to be interested in all digital AM. The three things they're doing with AM signals is: 1) Simulcasting on FM (as in KYW); 2) FM translators; or 3) HD-2 subchannel on FM. I think I saw where there are under 100 AM HD stations in the country, and perhaps a handful of experimental AM digital-only.

 

[semoochie]

I've been an XM subscriber for 18 years now, so I'm familiar with the system. For several years, I had 5 radio subscriptions on my account - for my home, car, office and several relatives. Now I have one subscription for the car. Streaming (included in my package) covers everywhere outside the car. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who's made that transition, so SiriusXM has had to deal with that contraction in subscriptions over the years and still seems to be growing. (BigA also pointed this out.)

Since they essentially pay to put the radios in cars, I suppose SiriusXM should be able to claim a subscription for the 3-month freebees. I seem to remember them specifying churn numbers at some point (free subscriptions not renewed). Don't know if they still do that.


The satellite radio usually comes as part of an audio or trim package in mid and upper models but, yes, it's usually bundled with something else the car buyer wants.

AM listeners can only listen to the analog audio for free. For those of us over a certain age, that's no big deal. But younger people don't go there. In order for OTA AM (and FM) to achieve menu-display parity with other audio content featured in auto entertainment systems, they have to have either an HD component or provide metadata via a hybrid digital system online.

This doesn't directly apply to the Delaware Valley but, again, in regions where cell service is spotty, HD might be the only option to get the metadata on the dashboard for AM and FM. Whether the costs are reasonable will be the decider. So far, it sounds like AMs will have to cough up serious funds to bring themselves 'in-spec' to broadcast MA-3, so that may not be viable in smaller markets. An FM translator might be cheaper to implement if available.


That will be interesting to watch. Xperi is waiving the chip royalty for MA-3 broadcasters, is it not?


Where a cell signal or an FM is a given, that will be the way it goes. But once you get outside the interstate mesh, cell service is often unreliable and the FM band is nearly full in most markets. Are the alternatives cost-effective? That's the question. Some technology companies are betting they can sell the alternatives. We'll see what happens.

Where cell service is unreliable, is the FM band nearly full?

 

[davideduardo]

Well, except for the 34 million satellite subscribers, that's correct. And the ones paying for streaming. The rest expect that function to be bundled in with their monthly phone payment. Isn't the HD chip royalty expiring soon?

There are over 250 million vehicles registered as in use in the US. If you take out the satellite phantom users like unsold cars and the trial period ones who will never subscribe, less than one out of every ten actually is a user.

and more than half of over the air listening is not in the car.

 

[JBraddock]

There are over 250 million vehicles registered as in use in the US. If you take out the satellite phantom users like unsold cars and the trial period ones who will never subscribe, less than one out of every ten actually is a user.

That's still ~34 million subscriptions - more than enough for satellite to be profitable. And the numbers appear to be growing still, albeit slowly. How many of those 250M vehicles even have satellite radio capability? Those numbers will increase over time.

It's true that HD is available in relatively few cars and despite the corporate rhetoric, those numbers don't seem to be increasing very quickly. At that rate, many of us won't be here when HD radios are available in a majority of models as a turnkey option. If that ever happens.

and more than half of over the air listening is not in the car.

....yet very few are buying new radios. There have to be millions of radios from the past 30 years lying around. But what happens when those units wear out?