LA PPM RATINGS RELEASED AUGUST 2009

[davideduardo]

KRTH is skewing older than those and that's why I think the addition of pre-1965 could be affecting them on the younger side.

Now why aren't you blaming "adding 80s" for the decline?

Because 80's songs would... and do... make a classic hits station skew younger. Older songs make a station skew older.

The only way you could "blame" adding pre-65 songs is if the ratings suddenly skewed older on the three "lost hits" weekends. That's the only time they did any "pre-65."

Wrong-o. Thanks for playing.

If you look at MediaBase, as I already told you once, you will see pre-65 songs peppered in all through the week in all dayparts. Obviously, they had an ugly effect on the demos, and pushed KRTH even deeper out of the Top 10 in 25-54. There is likely an amount of growling and howling going on over at CBS due to this ageing of the demos.

Even then, it'd be hard to reach a conclusion. The Lost Hits weekends have also featured tons of 1980s songs - more radical choices like Chaka Khan and Naked Eyes that don't show up during the week.

Again, songs as dreadful as Tequila were played in the survey period often (once is too often, I think... and I played that song as a current) on weekdays.

I think the younger listeners tuning in to the ONLY OLDIES STATION to hear Elvis, the Beatles, and Bobby Darin are maybe upset because there is too much Cyndi Lauper and Phil Collins! LOL.

Younger people don't tune in to hear... bear with me as I try not to heave my dinner... Bobby Darin. Younger people don't listen to classic hits stations (although there is quite a bit of "hearing" going on) because the target is pretty much 35 or 40 to 55, not the full scope of 25-54.

Bobby Darin. OMG.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

KRTH is skewing older than those and that's why I think the addition of pre-1965 could be affecting them on the younger side.

Now why aren't you blaming "adding 80s" for the decline?

Because 80's songs would... and do... make a classic hits station skew younger. Older songs make a station skew older.

The only way you could "blame" adding pre-65 songs is if the ratings suddenly skewed older on the three "lost hits" weekends. That's the only time they did any "pre-65."

Wrong-o. Thanks for playing.

If you look at MediaBase, as I already told you once, you will see pre-65 songs peppered in all through the week in all dayparts. Obviously, they had an ugly effect on the demos, and pushed KRTH even deeper out of the Top 10 in 25-54. There is likely an amount of growling and howling going on over at CBS due to this ageing of the demos.

Even then, it'd be hard to reach a conclusion. The Lost Hits weekends have also featured tons of 1980s songs - more radical choices like Chaka Khan and Naked Eyes that don't show up during the week.

Again, songs as dreadful as Tequila were played in the survey period often (once is too often, I think... and I played that song as a current) on weekdays.

I think the younger listeners tuning in to the ONLY OLDIES STATION to hear Elvis, the Beatles, and Bobby Darin are maybe upset because there is too much Cyndi Lauper and Phil Collins! LOL.

Younger people don't tune in to hear... bear with me as I try not to heave my dinner... Bobby Darin. Younger people don't listen to classic hits stations (although there is quite a bit of "hearing" going on) because the target is pretty much 35 or 40 to 55, not the full scope of 25-54.

Bobby Darin. OMG.

David, I thought you didn't talk down others' taste in music?

Bobby Darin was a tremendous talent and just as relevant in his time as Dave Mathews is in his.

I'm in the 25-54 demo and I would like to hear Bobby once in a while on an oldies station. I admit I am not the mindless drone "average demo listener" that you and other consultants program to, so your point about raising the average listener age is probably valid. But you compromised it with the gratuitous shot.

 

[davideduardo]

David, I thought you didn't talk down others' taste in music?

This was a personal comment. I remember well changing the radio each and every time Splish Splash or Mack the Knife came on the radio... I can't think of any artist, in fact, that I disliked more in that era.

Bobby Darin was a tremendous talent and just as relevant in his time as Dave Mathews is in his.

And thank you for joining me in demonstrating that big, chart topping songs were even polarizing "back in the day" and, now are likely to have even fewer partisans and lots more detractors. And that is why so few songs from any past era can be played today... were I to hear a Darin song, I would probably not tune to that station where I heard it for a month or more, so negative would be my reaction.

I'm in the 25-54 demo and I would like to hear Bobby once in a while on an oldies station.

But, because Bobby is not played for 25-54, I would reason that you are in a very narrow, thin and small minority on that.

I admit I am not the mindless drone "average demo listener" that you and other consultants program to,

Right. We cater to bad taste.

Actually, what radio does, and has for 90 years, is program to broad taste groups who generally like familiar music within each genre and like their station to be a comfort zone, not an intellectual challenge.

so your point about raising the average listener age is probably valid. But you compromised it with the gratuitous shot.

No, I proved a point by using as an example my personal taste, which I am allowed to have independent of obeying listener taste to program. I was waiting for an "objector" to provide the counterpoint and prove that just because a song charted or just because the artist had a mediocre movie done about his/her life does not mean their songs are playable today.

 

[oldies76]

David, there are still many people AND oldies / classic hits radio listeners that like Bobby Darin and the Champs "Tequilla". We are not in a thin, narrow, small minority who enjoys hits from the 50's. You really have no idea what music tastes people tend to have. All you can conclude is that the smallest minority of "testers" who give repeated results (based on already stagnant playlists), is the ONLY music that should ever be aired and is the ONLY music people enjoy hearing everyday. You have literally no idea what we like or dislike and the same goes for the millions of others out there.

We all know you despise oldies, you've given us proof ("omg..Bobby Darin", "songs as dreadful as Tequilla"). Thankfully there are many stations that cater to people that love oldies and classic hits, and will continue to do so, against your deepest wishes.

 

[davideduardo]

We all know you despise oldies,

And that would be why I created, with the assistance of a cross section of listeners, a classic hits station about a decade ago that is now available in 5 of the country's top 10 markets?

What I hate is stubborn people who insist that:

1. ...consulting your programming with real listeners is somehow wrong.
2. ...the songs they like are liked by everyone.
3. ...if a song was once a "hit" no matter how dubiously, it should be played today.
4. ...listeners who hate certain songs will not tune out if they hear songs they despise.
6. ...more songs is always better than less songs, even if the additional songs have no passion attached.
7. ...radio is a museum, not an entertainment source, and must play all the songs that charted.
8. ...charts from the 50's through the 70's are an accurate reflection of today's listeners' tastes.
9. ...charts were accurate and untainted and unbiased.
10. ...changes of 0.2 or 0.4 or 0.1 share points in the ratings are meaningful.
11. ...12+ ratings numbers have any relationship to the success of a station.

you've given us proof ("omg..Bobby Darin", "songs as dreadful as Tequilla"). Thankfully there are many stations that cater to people that love oldies and classic hits, and will continue to do so, against your deepest wishes.

I gave you examples of some songs that would make me wretch and run for the immodium... to show you that not every person who went through the 50's and 60's like all the songs or all the same songs.

 

[justpassingthough]

KRTH is skewing older than those and that's why I think the addition of pre-1965 could be affecting them on the younger side.

Now why aren't you blaming "adding 80s" for the decline?

Because 80's songs would... and do... make a classic hits station skew younger. Older songs make a station skew older.

The only way you could "blame" adding pre-65 songs is if the ratings suddenly skewed older on the three "lost hits" weekends. That's the only time they did any "pre-65."

Wrong-o. Thanks for playing.

If you look at MediaBase, as I already told you once, you will see pre-65 songs peppered in all through the week in all dayparts. Obviously, they had an ugly effect on the demos, and pushed KRTH even deeper out of the Top 10 in 25-54. There is likely an amount of growling and howling going on over at CBS due to this ageing of the demos.

Even then, it'd be hard to reach a conclusion. The Lost Hits weekends have also featured tons of 1980s songs - more radical choices like Chaka Khan and Naked Eyes that don't show up during the week.

Again, songs as dreadful as Tequila were played in the survey period often (once is too often, I think... and I played that song as a current) on weekdays.

I think the younger listeners tuning in to the ONLY OLDIES STATION to hear Elvis, the Beatles, and Bobby Darin are maybe upset because there is too much Cyndi Lauper and Phil Collins! LOL.

Younger people don't tune in to hear... bear with me as I try not to heave my dinner... Bobby Darin. Younger people don't listen to classic hits stations (although there is quite a bit of "hearing" going on) because the target is pretty much 35 or 40 to 55, not the full scope of 25-54.

Bobby Darin. OMG.

David, I thought you didn't talk down others' taste in music?

Bobby Darin was a tremendous talent and just as relevant in his time as Dave Mathews is in his.

I'm in the 25-54 demo and I would like to hear Bobby once in a while on an oldies station. I admit I am not the mindless drone "average demo listener" that you and other consultants program to, so your point about raising the average listener age is probably valid. But you compromised it with the gratuitous shot.

I would venture to guess that you are just shy of the upper end of the demo. I have difficulty imagining many 27 year olds cruising around town listening to Bobby Darin on KRTH. 25 to 54 almost seems like a useless demo in LA, because the demographic shifts that took place in LA over the past 30 years suggest that the lower end of the age group is significantly different demographically than the older end of the demo.

 

[scooty430]

KRTH is skewing older than those and that's why I think the addition of pre-1965 could be affecting them on the younger side.

Now why aren't you blaming "adding 80s" for the decline?

Because 80's songs would... and do... make a classic hits station skew younger. Older songs make a station skew older.

The only way you could "blame" adding pre-65 songs is if the ratings suddenly skewed older on the three "lost hits" weekends. That's the only time they did any "pre-65."

Wrong-o. Thanks for playing.

If you look at MediaBase, as I already told you once, you will see pre-65 songs peppered in all through the week in all dayparts. Obviously, they had an ugly effect on the demos, and pushed KRTH even deeper out of the Top 10 in 25-54. There is likely an amount of growling and howling going on over at CBS due to this ageing of the demos.

Even then, it'd be hard to reach a conclusion. The Lost Hits weekends have also featured tons of 1980s songs - more radical choices like Chaka Khan and Naked Eyes that don't show up during the week.

Again, songs as dreadful as Tequila were played in the survey period often (once is too often, I think... and I played that song as a current) on weekdays.

I think the younger listeners tuning in to the ONLY OLDIES STATION to hear Elvis, the Beatles, and Bobby Darin are maybe upset because there is too much Cyndi Lauper and Phil Collins! LOL.

Younger people don't tune in to hear... bear with me as I try not to heave my dinner... Bobby Darin. Younger people don't listen to classic hits stations (although there is quite a bit of "hearing" going on) because the target is pretty much 35 or 40 to 55, not the full scope of 25-54.

Bobby Darin. OMG.

Huh? You don't know what you are talking about....again.

KRTH has ALWAYS played Tequila. Always. They did not "add it in." It never left.

Please show actual playlists from your "Mediabase inside connection" (LMAO) where you can show all the "mid-week pre-65 adds," then show the weeks where there are, in your fantasy world, no pre-65 songs.

My guess is you will not do this, because it will expose you as.......wrong.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

KRTH is skewing older than those and that's why I think the addition of pre-1965 could be affecting them on the younger side.

Now why aren't you blaming "adding 80s" for the decline?

Because 80's songs would... and do... make a classic hits station skew younger. Older songs make a station skew older.

The only way you could "blame" adding pre-65 songs is if the ratings suddenly skewed older on the three "lost hits" weekends. That's the only time they did any "pre-65."

Wrong-o. Thanks for playing.

If you look at MediaBase, as I already told you once, you will see pre-65 songs peppered in all through the week in all dayparts. Obviously, they had an ugly effect on the demos, and pushed KRTH even deeper out of the Top 10 in 25-54. There is likely an amount of growling and howling going on over at CBS due to this ageing of the demos.

Even then, it'd be hard to reach a conclusion. The Lost Hits weekends have also featured tons of 1980s songs - more radical choices like Chaka Khan and Naked Eyes that don't show up during the week.

Again, songs as dreadful as Tequila were played in the survey period often (once is too often, I think... and I played that song as a current) on weekdays.

I think the younger listeners tuning in to the ONLY OLDIES STATION to hear Elvis, the Beatles, and Bobby Darin are maybe upset because there is too much Cyndi Lauper and Phil Collins! LOL.

Younger people don't tune in to hear... bear with me as I try not to heave my dinner... Bobby Darin. Younger people don't listen to classic hits stations (although there is quite a bit of "hearing" going on) because the target is pretty much 35 or 40 to 55, not the full scope of 25-54.

Bobby Darin. OMG.

David, I thought you didn't talk down others' taste in music?

Bobby Darin was a tremendous talent and just as relevant in his time as Dave Mathews is in his.

I'm in the 25-54 demo and I would like to hear Bobby once in a while on an oldies station. I admit I am not the mindless drone "average demo listener" that you and other consultants program to, so your point about raising the average listener age is probably valid. But you compromised it with the gratuitous shot.

I would venture to guess that you are just shy of the upper end of the demo. I have difficulty imagining many 27 year olds cruising around town listening to Bobby Darin on KRTH. 25 to 54 almost seems like a useless demo in LA, because the demographic shifts that took place in LA over the past 30 years suggest that the lower end of the age group is significantly different demographically than the older end of the demo.

Wrong, but thanks for just passing through. I am closer to 25 than I am to 54 (and thus will not be leaving the target money demo anytime soon), so obvious consultant-driven stereotypes about me based on what oldies I might like to hear on an oldies station will not apply.

What will apply is that, as David E. already noted, they are more interested in programming bad radio for the masses, and thus my opinion doesn't count. (DE, before you post back, I know you were being sarcastic about the bad radio part. The irony is that the sarcasm was more realistic than its ironic intent). My opinion doesn't count because it doesn't always agree with the masses on a highly correlated basis. In other words, 7 out of 10 people tested want to hear "Unchained Melody" every day and I don't.Of course if I ever wear a PPM, since I don't want to hear the same 300 oldies, it probably won't register the KRTH signal since I won't be listening. And according to David (not that he is wrong - he isn't) it still won't count. After all, my (lack of) input wouldn't even have the statistical effect of a wobble.

Point is, since my opinion doesn't count, they won't program to me, and I won't listen, and the advertisers who are desperately trying to reach me with my money demo, won't either. Amazing how that works.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Scooty, regarding "Tequila", in all fairness he didn't claim it was one of the "pre-'65" added titles. All he expressed was complete disgust at hearing it at all.

Other than that we know he's a cranky kind of guy who doesn't like/understand most English language rock/pop.

 

[Mediafrog+]

Even though I'm in Houston, I love reading the LA boards just for the information and entertainment value of David Eduardo's posts. At least he tells it like it is, not how we would like it to be.

Perhaps we should remember that, for better or worse, radio (and media in general) is a reflection of those that consume it. Like government, we get what we deserve.

Now back to your regularly scheduled cat fight.

 

[scooty430]

Fair enough. I felt he was implying that.

Funny that, of all songs, he'd choose Tequila. That's like saying, "I can't BELIEVE K-Earth is playing Brown Eyed Girl and My Guy!"

 

[scooty430]

Even though I'm in Houston, I love reading the LA boards just for the information and entertainment value of David Eduardo's posts. At least he tells it like it is, not how we would like it to be.

Perhaps we should remember that, for better or worse, radio (and media in general) is a reflection of those that consume it. Like government, we get what we deserve.

Now back to your regularly scheduled cat fight.

Actually, we DO have the media we deserve and want. And that would be the internet with its myriad choices and interactivity.

 

[Santos]

What I hate is stubborn people who insist that:

1. ...consulting your programming with real listeners is somehow wrong.
2. ...the songs they like are liked by everyone.
3. ...if a song was once a "hit" no matter how dubiously, it should be played today.
4. ...listeners who hate certain songs will not tune out if they hear songs they despise.
6. ...more songs is always better than less songs, even if the additional songs have no passion attached.
7. ...radio is a museum, not an entertainment source, and must play all the songs that charted.
8. ...charts from the 50's through the 70's are an accurate reflection of today's listeners' tastes.
9. ...charts were accurate and untainted and unbiased.
10. ...changes of 0.2 or 0.4 or 0.1 share points in the ratings are meaningful.
11. ...12+ ratings numbers have any relationship to the success of a station.
quote]

I agree with you David... Every one of those points you stated is true... Now, imagine 20 years from now songs like "Beautiful Girl", "Poker Face" and (God help us) anything like the horrible end of 90's music by "Jennifer Lopez"... (this is a personal opinion). You need to program based on your listeners taste today. And yes... CHARTS (even today) are NOT accurate. We see it all over the place, where songs are charting and you look at sales (downloads), request and texting (song request) and you compare and say "come on now, this song cannot be a big hit", or songs that are just "novelty/disposable" songs. I see it all the time in AMT's and "Perceptual studies".

Imagine in about 20 years hearing the "Ketchup" song or "Macarena" on a Cassic hits station.

 

[scooty430]

...and I hate people who put words in other people's mouths!

I'm not asking for a museum, Convoy played two times a day, or songs played based on old chart performance. If I said that, I'd be arguing for You Light Up My Life to be the most played song.

What I DO want is a station that goes beyond endlessly recycling the same small list of burned out, tired songs. A station that mixes in lesser heard songs EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE. A station that has creative presentations and is FUN. A station that takes a chance every now and again.

K-Earth, with very rare exceptions, is NOT that station, sadly. WCBS, for the most part, IS. Which station has better ratings? You guessed it....

 

[davideduardo]

Fair enough. I felt he was implying that.

Funny that, of all songs, he'd choose Tequila. That's like saying, "I can't BELIEVE K-Earth is playing Brown Eyed Girl and My Guy!"

Tequila is an instrumental in an era when there are essentially no insturmental pop hits. In the 50's and 60's we had lots and lots of insturmentals and they were hits... but almost universally, insturmentals (save smooth jazz and some dance music) are out of favor, and that includes new ones, old ones, soft ones and rock ones.

All songs of the same ilk have suffered the same fate: Brown Eyed Girl has lyrics and is, for some reason, a song that tests through the roof with nearly everyone except, apparently, with those who like Tequila and Bobby Darin songs.

 

[davideduardo]

Other than that we know he's a cranky kind of guy who doesn't like/understand most English language rock/pop.

I like plenty of pop songs in English: whether it is Akon, Black Eyed Peas, Pink or even Lady Gaga, there are lots of good songs today... and it's often a lot more fun to listen to Amp than it is to KRTH. And that is because I have a life today, and don't have to relive through old songs the only good times in my life.

 

[davideduardo]

K-Earth, with very rare exceptions, is NOT that station, sadly. WCBS, for the most part, IS. Which station has better ratings? You guessed it....

I knew it would come to this... a comparison of New York ratings results with those of LA. Whille you are at it, why not compare athletic supporters with bras?

There is no way of comparing a market that is nearly 45% Hispanic and 12% Asian and 10% first generation immigrants from places like Persia and Russia with a market that is decidedly more Black, has less than half the percentage of Hispanics and relatively small Asian communities.

It is also hard to compare a market where a majority of adults are not from here with one that is so stable that it even has local accents at the neighborhood level.

And the influences of climate and seasonality are worth noting, as well as differences in the local economy... starting with the immense film industry in California.

KRTH was performing very very well, until they decided to add the pre-65 stuff into the daily mix. In fact, it was starting to look like it would do better than either CBS or WOGL, but for some reason, they added all the drek and the numbers went down.

Oh, and last I checked, KRTH billed between tow and three times what WCBS-FM does.

 

[scooty430]

Fair enough. I felt he was implying that.

Funny that, of all songs, he'd choose Tequila. That's like saying, "I can't BELIEVE K-Earth is playing Brown Eyed Girl and My Guy!"

Tequila is an instrumental in an era when there are essentially no insturmental pop hits. In the 50's and 60's we had lots and lots of insturmentals and they were hits... but almost universally, insturmentals (save smooth jazz and some dance music) are out of favor, and that includes new ones, old ones, soft ones and rock ones.

All songs of the same ilk have suffered the same fate: Brown Eyed Girl has lyrics and is, for some reason, a song that tests through the roof with nearly everyone except, apparently, with those who like Tequila and Bobby Darin songs.

K-Earth still plays a bunch of instrumentals: Tequila (which just aired 30 minutes ago), Grazing in the Grass, Green Onions, Soulful Strut, Wipeout, Classical Gas, and Hawaii Five-O are all in regular rotation, and always have been. Every once in awhile you'll hear Love's Theme by Barry White, or Pipeline.

CBS-FM of course plays even more, and actually had "Instrumental Day" yesterday, coincidentally!

 

[scooty430]

KRTH was performing very very well, until they decided to add the pre-65 stuff into the daily mix.

This is B.S. until you prove it with a playlist.

 

[scooty430]

K-Earth, with very rare exceptions, is NOT that station, sadly. WCBS, for the most part, IS. Which station has better ratings? You guessed it....

I knew it would come to this... a comparison of New York ratings results with those of LA. Whille you are at it, why not compare athletic supporters with bras?

There is no way of comparing a market that is nearly 45% Hispanic and 12% Asian and 10% first generation immigrants from places like Persia and Russia with a market that is decidedly more Black, has less than half the percentage of Hispanics and relatively small Asian communities.

It is also hard to compare a market where a majority of adults are not from here with one that is so stable that it even has local accents at the neighborhood level.

And the influences of climate and seasonality are worth noting, as well as differences in the local economy... starting with the immense film industry in California.

KRTH was performing very very well, until they decided to add the pre-65 stuff into the daily mix. In fact, it was starting to look like it would do better than either CBS or WOGL, but for some reason, they added all the drek and the numbers went down.

Oh, and last I checked, KRTH billed between tow and three times what WCBS-FM does.

And they'd bill even more if they had the ratings CBS-FM does. Maybe they should mirror their approach....