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LA Trend question

F

Fab4Freddy

Guest
Im looking at R & R's publication of todays trend release.

Todays trend shows KDLD/KDLE as "no change" from last book , however my notes show that Indie's last book was 40% higher than is currently being listed.

Is only on of the 2 simulcasts being included in the trend?
 
Re: Indie down, down, down and down.

> Im looking at R & R's publication of todays trend release.
>
> Todays trend shows KDLD/KDLE as "no change" from last book ,
> however my notes show that Indie's last book was 40% higher
> than is currently being listed.
>
> Is only on of the 2 simulcasts being included in the trend?

The Indie combo lost 40% of its Spring share, based on going down in each of the last 4 months, one after another. It is now significantly below a one share. Again, that is for the combo. KDLE dropped out of the book, but in the combo, the below minimum level share appears for KDLE. R&R apparently, when seeing a station below minimum and out of book, just publishes the one with numbers. What you see is KDLD... in combo, KDLE adds about a tenth of a share.
 
KDLD stayed flat.

David,

Ive since seen the actual numbers and they do not list KDLE at all so you are saying that in LA , KDLD stayed flat and in OC KDLE fell off the map completely?

Do you think it a bit abnormal that on one stick they would stay flat and on the other stick they lost the enire audience? Seems like an Arbitron freakshow, as much a doubling the KDLE ratings would seem a freakshow.


A stick dropping 100% of it's audience when the format did not change, seems like the method of tracking listeners is at issue.

Would you say that's within the "wobble" zone? If so, perhaps Arbitron is showing it's antiquation.





> > Im looking at R & R's publication of todays trend release.
>
> >
> > Todays trend shows KDLD/KDLE as "no change" from last book
> ,
> > however my notes show that Indie's last book was 40%
> higher
> > than is currently being listed.
> >
> > Is only on of the 2 simulcasts being included in the
> trend?
>
> The Indie combo lost 40% of its Spring share, based on going
> down in each of the last 4 months, one after another. It is
> now significantly below a one share. Again, that is for the
> combo. KDLE dropped out of the book, but in the combo, the
> below minimum level share appears for KDLE. R&R apparently,
> when seeing a station below minimum and out of book, just
> publishes the one with numbers. What you see is KDLD... in
> combo, KDLE adds about a tenth of a share.
>
 
Re: KDLD stayed flat.

If you have to ask, you haven't been paying attention. The whole station(s) are in the wobble zone. Sometimes it wobbles up, sometimes it wobbles down, but it always wobbles. In short, the station is a turkey - wobble, wobble, wobble...




> David,
>
> Ive since seen the actual numbers and they do not list KDLE
> at all so you are saying that in LA Indie stayed flat and in
> OC they fell off the map completely?
>
> Do you think it a bit abnormal that on one stick they would
> stay flat and on the other stick they lost the enire
> audience? Seems like an Arbitron freakshow, as much a
> doubling the KDLE ratings would seem a freakshow.
>
>
> A stick dropping 100% of it's audience when the format did
> not change, seems like the method of tracking listeners is
> at issue.
>
> Would you say that's within the "wobble" zone? If so,
> perhaps Arbitron is showing it's antiquation.
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Im looking at R & R's publication of todays trend
> release.
> >
> > >
> > > Todays trend shows KDLD/KDLE as "no change" from last
> book
> > ,
> > > however my notes show that Indie's last book was 40%
> > higher
> > > than is currently being listed.
> > >
> > > Is only on of the 2 simulcasts being included in the
> > trend?
> >
> > The Indie combo lost 40% of its Spring share, based on
> going
> > down in each of the last 4 months, one after another. It
> is
> > now significantly below a one share. Again, that is for
> the
> > combo. KDLE dropped out of the book, but in the combo, the
>
> > below minimum level share appears for KDLE. R&R
> apparently,
> > when seeing a station below minimum and out of book, just
> > publishes the one with numbers. What you see is KDLD... in
>
> > combo, KDLE adds about a tenth of a share.
> >
>
 
Re: KDLD stayed flat.

> David,
>
> Ive since seen the actual numbers and they do not list KDLE
> at all so you are saying that in LA , KDLD stayed flat and
> in OC KDLE fell off the map completely?

What I am saying is that KDLE did not meet the minimum requirements for appearing. It had residual audience, probably around a 0.2 share as that is right under MRS in LA. So, combined with KDLD's share, the residual level of KDLE actually helped the combo not looks so bad. Still, way under a one sshare total.
>
> Do you think it a bit abnormal that on one stick they would
> stay flat and on the other stick they lost the enire
> audience? Seems like an Arbitron freakshow, as much a
> doubling the KDLE ratings would seem a freakshow.

It is part wobble and part the fact that the audience for Indie has been declining steadily for 4 months, bit by bit. KDLE finally fell under the radar and KDLD is not far off.
>
>
> A stick dropping 100% of it's audience when the format did
> not change, seems like the method of tracking listeners is
> at issue.

Sounds like the final step of a staiton that was in decline since the Winter book.
>
> Would you say that's within the "wobble" zone? If so,
> perhaps Arbitron is showing it's antiquation.


Wobble is a factor of sample size and is magnified when a station has very very low numbers. Wobble is normal in every survey. Good stations wobble in a high range (KLVE from a 3.8 to a 5.1 in last 8 months) while bad ones wobble into oblivion on occasion.
 
Re: KDLD stayed flat.

David,

The numbers R & R shows for KDLD/KDLE for the past 4 quarters clearly only reflect the numbers of one of the sticks. (On a side note, These numbers do increase each quarter until this past trend when the number flattens out at the same number as the spring book, which is Indie's highest rated book.)

My main point being, that it seems as though the KDLE simulcast has not been included in this trend.

With a simulcast, aren't the numbers added together to determaine if a station "shows in the book". That's my understanding of what a simulcast is, that the numbers add together. Why would they not be showing the full numbers of the past 4 books.

It makes it look as though Indie was unchanged this trend from last book, but only using the numbers for one of the sticks.
 
Re: KDLD stayed flat.

> David,
>
> The numbers R & R shows for KDLD/KDLE for the past 4
> quarters clearly only reflect the numbers of one of the
> sticks.

R&R does not apparently have the software to create combos. Arbitron does not provide combo numbers. This is done by clients. So they only show KDLD, and the numbers you see are KDLD numbers since KDLE dropped out of the book and R&R does not show stations with "0" showings.

>(On a side note, These numbers do increase each
> quarter until this past trend when the number flattens out
> at the same number as the spring book, which is Indie's
> highest rated book.)

The combo and indidual station numbers decreased in each of the last 4 months, consecutively. With the software, we have the exact months from each book, and can extrapolate the new trends.
>
> My main point being, that it seems as though the KDLE
> simulcast has not been included in this trend.

Because R&R got a release from Arbitron that showed KDLE out of the book, so there was no number EXCEPT KDLD.
>
> With a simulcast, aren't the numbers added together to
> determaine if a station "shows in the book".

No. Each station is shown separately and the client can do the combo creation in the trend software. In this case, you can pick up the tiny below 0.3 listening of a below the minimum station and it will add. But the Arbitron release to the press does not do this. KDLE did not show.

> That's my
> understanding of what a simulcast is, that the numbers add
> together. Why would they not be showing the full numbers of
> the past 4 books.

No. R&R has a policy of not showing any numbers of a station that is not in the current release. So they would not add KDLE as KDLE did not show.
>
> It makes it look as though Indie was unchanged this trend
> from last book, but only using the numbers for one of the
> sticks.

The other one did not make the book. If you add zero to a number, it does not increase. The Arbitron press release numbers had a zero for KDLE. In other words, both signals have dropped a lot, and one so much it no longer shows. This means that this station is definitely in play, and I would not bet even a dollar that it would be around past December.
>
 
This happens every time ...

Freddy asks about Indie numbers.

David explains the numbers.

Freddy refuses to accept explanation and posts again saying "but the way I see it, Indie is still viable".

David patiently explains again why Indie is not doing well in the numbers.

Any minute now, Freddy will dispute it again because his rose-colored glasses are apparently permanently welded to his head.<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
Re: This happens every time ...

> Freddy asks about Indie numbers.
>
> David explains the numbers.
>
> Freddy refuses to accept explanation and posts again saying
> "but the way I see it, Indie is still viable".
>
> David patiently explains again why Indie is not doing well
> in the numbers.
>
> Any minute now, Freddy will dispute it again because his
> rose-colored glasses are apparently permanently welded to
> his head.
>
I guess we won't have to wait too much longer for this torture to end.
I wonder how the Entravision sales staff feels about selling Indie these days.
 
Re: KDLD stayed flat.

That's aboutthe best answer I've seen.



> If you have to ask, you haven't been paying attention. The
> whole station(s) are in the wobble zone. Sometimes it
> wobbles up, sometimes it wobbles down, but it always
> wobbles. In short, the station is a turkey - wobble, wobble,
> wobble...
>
>
 
Re: This happens every time ...

KM,

All I've done is ask a procedural question about how the Arbitron system works and why the KDLE stick wasn't being listed.

What usually happens when I ask such a question is that I will then be subjected to personal attacks by those who should be above that.

Please don't allow that to happen.
Thanks.




> Freddy asks about Indie numbers.
>
> David explains the numbers.
>
> Freddy refuses to accept explanation and posts again saying
> "but the way I see it, Indie is still viable".
>
> David patiently explains again why Indie is not doing well
> in the numbers.
>
> Any minute now, Freddy will dispute it again because his
> rose-colored glasses are apparently permanently welded to
> his head.
>
 
Re: This happens every time ...

> What usually happens when I ask such a question is that I
> will then be subjected to personal attacks by those who
> should be above that.

It is my observation that the personal attacks happen only when you appear to be in denial of what is being said.

> Please don't allow that to happen.

My suggestion (not a demand, only a suggestion based on the above observation) is that you can do a lot to prevent it by not appearing to be in denial. In other words, at some point you need to stop questioning the answers.

> Thanks.

I'm trying pretty damned hard to be fair about this, given that I have no personal dislike for Indie myself.<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
Re: This happens every time over and over and over again.

> KM,
>
> All I've done is ask a procedural question about how the
> Arbitron system works and why the KDLE stick wasn't being
> listed.

I hope you understand that R&R is the source of this data, not Arbitron. And R&R has a preferred way of presenting data, which consists of adding the components of a combo by math. since KDLE had no numbers at all in the trend, they simply published KDLD with its historic numbers without the non-appearing partner.
>
> What usually happens when I ask such a question is that I
> will then be subjected to personal attacks by those who
> should be above that.

You tend to ask the same question over and over, hoping that you will eventually hear an answer you like better. This is tedious.

A number of people have tried to explain what goes on, and you shoud be fair to them in recognizing that most have no agenda for or against Indie, but do have a grasp on the reality of LA radio.
>
> Please don't allow that to happen.

Saying "enough!" is not an insult. It is just a reflection of growing weary over this Groundhog Day discussion of Indie.
 
Re: This happens every time ...

Then why is it so damn hard to be fair?

Your words betrayeth your soul?

> I'm trying pretty damned hard to be fair about this, given
> that I have no personal dislike for Indie myself.
>
 
Re: KDLD stayed flat.

When is the next trend, so we can relive this again? :)


> That's aboutthe best answer I've seen.
>
>
>
> > If you have to ask, you haven't been paying attention. The
>
> > whole station(s) are in the wobble zone. Sometimes it
> > wobbles up, sometimes it wobbles down, but it always
> > wobbles. In short, the station is a turkey - wobble,
> wobble,
> > wobble...
> >
> >
>
 
Re: This happens every time ...

All I did was ask two questions.

1. Why didn't KDLE show up in Arb.

2. Why is R & R listing the past 4 numbers for only one Indie stick.

I don't see what about that appears to be denial.

I see now that R & R has changed it's listing to reflect the past book numbers of BOTH sticks combined.

The Arb is showing numbers for only one stick this trend (which is the same number being shown in R & R)

Looking at Arb, one is left with the impression that KDLD (LA) went unchanged and KDLE (OC) fell off the book.

So my final question is this.

Arb is only listing KDLD, so does the new trend number being shown for KDLD also include the "below threshold" number for KDLE even though KDLE is not being listed, or is that not being combined in?

Can you say with utmost certainty that both sticks are being combined in this trend?

This is just me trying to understand how arb works in regards to simulcasts where one stick falls below threshold.







> My suggestion (not a demand, only a suggestion based on the
> above observation) is that you can do a lot to prevent it by
> not appearing to be in denial. In other words, at some
> point you need to stop questioning the answers.
>
 
Re: This happens every time ...

> >
> > Freddy refuses to accept explanation and posts again
> saying
> > "but the way I see it, Indie is still viable".



You are attributing a statement to me that I did not say. That is your pattern.

I'm not talking about whether Indie is viable. I am asking questions about how Arb reports simulcasts.
You are not being at all fair and seem to be predisposed to treating me like a jerk.
 
Re: This happens every time ...

> Then why is it so damn hard to be fair?

Freddy makes it hard by bringing this up over and over and over and over ...

> Your words betrayeth your soul?

No, I just put that in to (hopefully) dissuade the usual "you just hate Indie, KM" posts which have turned up in Freddy's previous threads.

Somewhere in my 4000+ posts there is a statement from me about how I feel it is unfortunate that this innovative format is stuck on a lousy signal, and how that is going to make it difficult for anyone else to make an attempt to do it on a better signal. That post is public, so I don't think I'm betraying my soul by bringing it up.

> > I'm trying pretty damned hard to be fair about this, given
> > that I have no personal dislike for Indie myself.

<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
Education time

> > >
> > > Freddy refuses to accept explanation and posts again
> > saying
> > > "but the way I see it, Indie is still viable".
>
>
>
> You are attributing a statement to me that I did not say.
> That is your pattern.

Quote marks can be used for either a direct quote or for a generic "example" of a person's general attitude which does not have to be a direct quote. In other words, my use of quotes above denotes what general impression you have given in the countless posts you have made about Indie.

> I'm not talking about whether Indie is viable. I am asking
> questions about how Arb reports simulcasts.

And then, given the answer, once again resort to the "that means Indie's ratings are higher than they seem" defense. Sorry, that smokescreen doesn't cover. (And yes, the quote marks again denote the general impression you give.)

> You are not being at all fair and seem to be predisposed to
> treating me like a jerk.

And you have abused this board by repeatedly bringing up a subject that has been discussed to death, and asking questions which have been answered many times for you before.

And yes, I am treating you as I would a jerk. Direct interpretation of your syntax. Do you want to know how R-I's owners treat people who bring up the same subject over and over again, or can you guess?<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
Re: Education time

Thanks for the education, now let me give you one.

I have confirmation that my hunch was indeed correct.

The KDLE numbers were not included in Indie's recent trend numbers. What you were seeing were only the KDLD numbers.

An ad agency friend told me that there was a paperwork mistake which caused the 2 signals to not be listed as a simulacast.

In reality, KDLE was down only one 10th and KDLD stayed the same.

Indie only dropped one tenth and that will be reflected in the next trend.

Experts, discuss. Then you could consider humbling yourself.




> > > >
> > > > Freddy refuses to accept explanation and posts again
> > > saying
> > > > "but the way I see it, Indie is still viable".
> >
> >
> >
> > You are attributing a statement to me that I did not say.
> > That is your pattern.
>
> Quote marks can be used for either a direct quote or for a
> generic "example" of a person's general attitude which does
> not have to be a direct quote. In other words, my use of
> quotes above denotes what general impression you have given
> in the countless posts you have made about Indie.
>
> > I'm not talking about whether Indie is viable. I am asking
>
> > questions about how Arb reports simulcasts.
>
> And then, given the answer, once again resort to the "that
> means Indie's ratings are higher than they seem" defense.
> Sorry, that smokescreen doesn't cover. (And yes, the quote
> marks again denote the general impression you give.)
>
> > You are not being at all fair and seem to be predisposed
> to
> > treating me like a jerk.
>
> And you have abused this board by repeatedly bringing up a
> subject that has been discussed to death, and asking
> questions which have been answered many times for you
> before.
>
> And yes, I am treating you as I would a jerk. Direct
> interpretation of your syntax. Do you want to know how
> R-I's owners treat people who bring up the same subject over
> and over again, or can you guess?
>
 
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