Latest Arbitrends: WBNS-AM joins WTDA in being beaten by WLW

[Al Timiter]

del griffith (love your handle, BTW) Maybe this is sad, but I remember when 1230 was rated #1 in the market. Then again from a business perspective, what's even sadder is a former #1 is now sometimes unrated.

Not to get too off-topic but yeah, WCOL was some kind of big deal in the day. National reputation. Incredible numbers. Multi-controls,multi production and newsrooms too. It is a shame. There are probably still radio ghosts in that building.

 

[GR]

WCOL was some kind of big deal in the day. National reputation. Incredible numbers. Multi-controls,multi production and newsrooms too. It is a shame. There are probably still radio ghosts in that building.

Spook Beckman, perhaps? Some say you can see his reflection in the window of that Subway shop that used to be the studio.

Yeah - I couldn't believe they just tossed those heritage call letters out with the trash....Kind of like they did with WWWE in Cleveland. It takes years and countless thousands of dollars to build that type of name recognition. Why on earth would you just throw that away?

 

[willcail]

As an heavy volunteer (now I'm on the programming board) at WCRS 102.1 (main tower) 98.3 (translator) LPFM that I'm glad that the restrictions on LPFM's are easing. If NABCO want to improve the ratings for WTDA that they need to ditch the near Talk Radio Network lineup. Seriously why would anyone want to here the hate speech of Micheal "Weiner" Savage.

Stephanie Miller, Ed Schultz, Matt and Ramona all have followings in Columbus. Where are the followings for Micheal Savage, Mancow, and Dennis Miller?

Since Randi Rhodes is now syndicated by Premiere Radio Networks why not get her on and dump that more annoying guy after Hannity.

 

[One Who Knows]

As an heavy volunteer (now I'm on the programming board) at WCRS 102.1 (main tower) 98.3 (translator) LPFM that I'm glad that the restrictions on LPFM's are easing. If NABCO want to improve the ratings for WTDA that they need to ditch the near Talk Radio Network lineup. Seriously why would anyone want to here the hate speech of Micheal "Weiner" Savage.

Stephanie Miller, Ed Schultz, Matt and Ramona all have followings in Columbus. Where are the followings for Micheal Savage, Mancow, and Dennis Miller?

Since Randi Rhodes is now syndicated by Premiere Radio Networks why not get her on and dump that more annoying guy after Hannity.

Savage gets ratings in most of the markets he's in...(he does very well in my market, which is heavily democratic by the way.) Unfortunately for him, he's on the biggest piece of crap signal in Columbus...

 

[Nu_Roo_2]

Savage gets ratings in most of the markets he's in...(he does very well in my market, which is heavily democratic by the way.)  Unfortunately for him, he's on the biggest piece of crap signal in Columbus...

Interesting given that hardly a day goes by where I don't hear about some station dumping him -- sometimes with a statement about how he's nuts.

BTW, many of the strongest right-wing talkers (I know, that's largely a redundancy) are in heavily Democratic markets.  Not surprising, because conservatives there thirst even more heavily for what they consider voices of reason and defiance (probably another redundancy, since most conserva-talk listeners seem to view those as synonymous).

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

Isn't there enough talk -- period? Whether politics (albeit one-sided) or sports?

Aside from your belief (IIRC) that talk shouldn't be on the FM band at all...

I'm almost ready to agree with you, in Columbus, that there's almost "too much" in the spoken word format on either band.

Too much, in that there's so much out there that it's difficult to be competitive in spoken word if you're not WTVN or WBNS(-FM-and-or-AM).

"The Fan" is poised to be a powerhouse in the Fall. If they do it right, and the Buckeyes have a good-to-great season (or maybe even if not), expect 97.1's numbers to shoot skyward by winter. Yeah, they ran the games as "Mix", but it wasn't driving all that much ancilliary programming on the FM side with a music format.

The move of "The Fan" to FM was long overdue in Buckeye-mad Columbus.

But once you get to other stations? Yipes.

WYTS is a non-factor, and is just another clearance for Premiere's own FSR. "You've gotta do something" with a signal, and it's an alternative to shutting off 1230 and turning in the license JbC and company could try to pick up some low-hanging Buckeye fallout/scraps and make a few bucks, but most of that will go to the powerhouse at 610.

Why is WTDA still doing talk? Well, it's a lousy signal that gets lost in downtown Columbus, and is basically an out-of-town signal anywhere south of there. Maybe they think they extend their range by turning off the stereo pilot and losing some of that flutter.

This may be another case of "well, what do you do with 103.9 and make any money off of it"?

This thread makes a very good point...really, WLW is very nearly the second talk station in the Columbus market. (In Grove City, you can hear 700, but not 103.9 )

So, once you get past 610, 700 and on the sports site, 97.1/1460, there's basically no room for a competitive operation in talk or sports in the market. Period.

 

[inradio]

If memory serves me right, the HS Football and Michigan football were the two highest rated programs on the former Zone. It might be a good idea for jbc and michigan mike to look at those options again.

 

[Nu_Roo_2]

Isn't there enough talk -- period?  Whether politics (albeit one-sided) or sports?

Aside from your belief (IIRC) that talk shouldn't be on the FM band at all...

For the record, I didn't say there shouldn't be talk on FM.  I did say I'm personally sorry to see it happen in Columbus since there are fewer big-signal music options here than similar-sized markets.  So I wouldn't exactly mind if 97.1 does poorly with sportstalk.  But elsewhere it makes sense, and even here I can't blame 97.1 for doing it if it does indeed turn out to be more beneficial to their business than music. 

I agree with the rest of your assessment, BTW.

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

For the record, I didn't say there shouldn't be talk on FM. I did say I'm personally sorry to see it happen in Columbus since there are fewer big-signal music options here than similar-sized markets.

We've kicked this around before, but there's no guarantee that whatever music formats would replace the FM spoken word formats would be successful. You can't just hope stations put on music you might like to hear. It's not like the FM talk/sports stations are automatically blocking some sort of music format that would catch on.

And both 103.9 and 97.1 came out of music formats. 'BNS is probably going to have a lot of success in the OSU football season, and 103.9 doesn't seem to have a shot at success in ANY format, spoken word or music.

The devil is in the details and execution. And of course, 103.9 doesn't count as a "big signal" anyway.

If 97.1 doesn't work out, which doesn't seem likely at this point, what should Dispatch put on it, music wise, in your opinion? We've been through this, but I can't remember.

As for 103.9, maybe it and 920 should swap formats...

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

Oh, by the way...I agree Mr. Crenshaw should put HSFB on 1230.

I wonder if Gary will be doing it anywhere this year...

 

[Nu_Roo_2]

For the record, I didn't say there shouldn't be talk on FM.  I did say I'm personally sorry to see it happen in Columbus since there are fewer big-signal music options here than similar-sized markets.

We've kicked this around before, but there's no guarantee that whatever music formats would replace the FM spoken word formats would be successful.  You can't just hope stations put on music you might like to hear.    It's not like the FM talk/sports stations are automatically blocking some sort of music format that would catch on.

Speaking of "kicking things around before," you seem to keep overlooking the fact that the mu\sic formats and/or approaches to those formats  that I have espoused are ones that have NEVER BEEN TRIED ON A BIG SIGNAL IN COLUMBUS -- including many that have had a lot of success in lots of other markets (certainly including Ohio and the rest of the Midwest).  And again, some of these are for formats/approaches I DON'T personally care for, so please get off of this "what you might like to hear" kick.  (Obviously that would be me preference, but it's far from all I've suggested.  If you need proof let me know and I'll go back and dig up the posts.).  I don't know, maybe you're confusing me with other posters.  Please shake this smug, "what YOU want to hear" tone.  It's starting to get demeaning and a bit offensive.

Also, the pertinent considerations are not just "MUSIC" didn't work for Stations X and Y.  The actual question is, "WHAT music formats and approaches didn't work for Stations X and Y?"  You are really over-simplifying, lumping music formats together as one monolithic entitity, and it's not.  And you are citing stations like 103.9 when I keep referring to BIG SIGNALS.  You even said yourself that nothing is going to work for 103.9 with its crap signal.  I even started a thread along those lines over a year ago, specifically addressing 103.9, called something like, "It's not the format, it's the signal."

And BTW, the lack of BIG SIGNALS here is even worse give that TWO of the music stations are both Mainstream AC's.

 

[Nu_Roo_2]

BTW, my last post was done in haste before running out for awhile, and now I'm back and  see now that the tone was a bit too "heavy" and overlooked a couple of comments you made.  Not my intention, sorry.  And too late to edit.  But I do think you may be falling back a bit too often into the easy "what YOU want to hear" comebacks.  I don't know, perhaps that's hard to avoid because so many posts really are people saying, "if only Station X would play this or that, they would clean up in the ratings."

Now with the caveats that my reply was probably a bit over-reactive, maybe even off-base in some places, and didn't acknowledge all of your points (and I'm not going to rehash point-by-point here), I still basically stand behind my assertions. 

One new thing I specifically want to address is your statement that "there's no guarantee that whatever music formats would replace the FM spoken word formats would be successful."  That gets to a core source of my dismay with Columbus music radio, namely that the big signals have been so unusually narrow in terms of what they have even tried (and that refers to format tweaks too, not just format changes).  Far narrower than any other market this size, and even a lot narrower than much smaller markets like, say, Ft. Wayne, IN.  So there's less room for making justifiable "didn't work" and "no guarantee it will work" assertions for big-signal music formats/approaches here than elsewhere.

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

I think I've stepped in this before with you, Nu_Roo, and I apologize. It's easy to lump you in with the people who complain that nasty-old-fogey-talk-radio is blocking their possible favorite music format in Columbus, and that spoken word formats should be shunted to AM...to make way for their "perfect" music station that just hasn't been tried in Columbus, and EVERYONE would listen if only the station would do it!

You're more reasonable than that, of course.

About the "big signals have been so unusually narrow" in regards to music formats, you're probably 100% correct.

But two things: 1) Columbus is a pretty bland market, for the most part, is it not? Does radio that pushes musical limits have a chance of mainstream or even moderate niche success in one of America's standard "test markets"? Or are most listeners looking for the tried and true?

And 2) There will be more spoken word stations, not less, on FM in the future. Hopefully for them, they'll be more successful than WTDA.



And no, I'm not talking about stations all running the standard syndie conservative talk lineup offered by WTDA, or even what's not local on WTVN. Or, for that matter, what WTPG and WVKO offered from the left...

 

[Nu_Roo_2]

I think I've stepped in this before with you, Nu_Roo, and I apologize.  It's easy to lump you in with the people who complain that nasty-old-fogey-talk-radio is blocking their possible favorite music format in Columbus, and that spoken word formats should be shunted to AM...to make way for their "perfect" music station that just hasn't been tried in Columbus, and EVERYONE would listen if only the station would do it!

You're more reasonable than that, of course.

About the "big signals have been so unusually narrow" in regards to music formats, you're probably 100% correct.

But two things:  1) Columbus is a pretty bland market, for the most part, is it not?  Does radio that pushes musical limits have a chance of mainstream or even moderate niche success in one of America's standard "test markets"?  Or are most listeners looking for the tried and true?

And 2) There will be more spoken word stations, not less, on FM in the future.  Hopefully for them, they'll be more successful than WTDA.



And no, I'm not talking about stations all running the standard syndie conservative talk lineup offered by WTDA, or even what's not local on WTVN.  Or, for that matter, what WTPG and WVKO offered from the left...

Thanks for "de-lumping" me.      

As for your #2, no argument there, even if it's not my personal preference.  If that's what economics dictate, so be it.

But as for #1...Not sure why you're assuming I'm talking about pushing any musical limits when I refer to formats/approaches that haven't been tried on big signals here.  I'm decidedly NOT referring to "cutting edge" in most cases, which is what makes the state of affairs all the more ridiculous.

Take Classic Hits (of the modernized Oldies variety that predominates today).  It's hardly cutting-edge, but has become a big moneymaker -- take a look at WGRR in Cincinnati, for instance.  But this kind of Classic Hits has never been tried on a BIG SIGNAL here.  Anywhere else it would be a no-brainer, at least for a trial.  Pre-Premium Choice WLZT played some of that music, but it was lumped together with ultra-soft AC.  That completely defeated the key requirement of a reliably "feel-good," upbeat, bright sound that's integral to a Classic Hits format.  And as for WODB, that is another crap signal -- certainly nothing that would preclude a Big Signal from taking ownership of the format.  And this is sure a different animal than traditional Oldies, so the old 97.1 hardly counts as a trial of Classic Hits.

So, if you want an example of a VERY MAINSTREAM (and very widely successful, especially with the PPM) music format that has never been tried on a BIG SIGNAL in Columbus, there you have it.  A bastardized execution does not qualify as a trial.  This is a Classic (no pun intended) example of how local Big Signals have been doggedly narrow in terms of what they have tried.  Why two mainstream AC's instead of one mainstream AC and one Classic Hits, when there are so few big-signal music options?  And note that it wouldn't require 97.1 changing back to music to accomplish this sensible change in the local format landscape.

 

[SeanMGilbow]

OK, OMW, I've got to call you out on this one.

In an earlier post here you said:

"There's basically no room for a competitive operation in talk or sports in the (Columbus) market. Period."

Now, you say,

"There will be more spoken word stations, not less, on FM in the future."

Conservatives would call this a flip-flop. But I'll wait until I hear your explanation.

No rush, since the next batch of Arbitrends will be coming out any day now.

 

[del_griffith]

Nu-Roo. I thought 99.7 when it was Magic 99.7 was classic hits.

 

[KFodor]

What Nu-Roo is talking about is the new "Classic Hits" format which is replacing the original 50's/60's/70's based oldies format. Done with Top 40/Hot A-C style jocks.

It is 60's and 70's based with a shred of 80's music. Some stations even opt in a small amount of 50's-early 60's music in "timeless" type features and feature programming. It's not enough early years stuff to overrule the target demo (35-54), but it somewhat satisfies the elders who miss their Elvis and Chubby Checker.

In NYC, WCBS-FM is #2 or #3 overall 25-54 with it. WGRR in Cincinnati is successful, so too is WMJI in Cleveland.

So, No-Roo's suggestion is right...why not on a big stick? (It would be a bad day at Saga, who's doing it on B-whatever it is today, but it could be a money format for someone.)

 

[Nu_Roo_2]

Nu-Roo.  I thought 99.7 when it was Magic 99.7 was classic hits. 

That's actually a perfect example of the kind of situation that's resulted in frustratingly off-base, "gee, but that's been tried in Columbus and failed" assertions.  Thanks.  That station did use the moniker "Classic Hits."  But it was actuallly nothing more than straight-ahead 50's and 60's oldies.  Not a whit like today's Classic Hits stations, whether of the "modernized and not-afraid-to-rock oldies" variety prevalent today; or of the "softer, slightly poppier Classic Rock derivative" variety (which is still used very successfully today on some stations like Chicago's WDRV).

Oh, not to mention the minor detail that that was 23 years ago.  In fact, the 99.7 WMGG oldies format you refer to lasted from September 1986 to August 1987, when they segued to Classic Rock (a version that was on the hard side by 1987 standards, BTW) but oddly kept the non-Rock-like handle Magic 99.7. The station never used the term Classic Hits after that (they were, at various times, Classic Rock, Classic Rock 'n Roll, and "Real Rock 'n Roll Magic," before blowing it up to flip to Active Rock Blitz in July, 1992).

Anyway, there has never, ever been a big signal in Columbus that sounds anything like, again, Cincy's WGRR (which is very typical of the format as it exists today in most medium and large markets).  Look at the last couple hours of WGRR from yes.com, and tell me what big signal in Columbus has ever had a mix remotely like this:

War - Low Rider 29.06.2009 5:03pm
Tom Petty - Free Fallin' 29.06.2009 5:07pm
The Four Tops - I Can't Help Myself 29.06.2009 5:11pm
Steely Dan - Do It Again 29.06.2009 5:14pm
England Dan & John Ford Coley - I'd Really Love To See You Tonight 29.06.2009 5:18pm
Supertramp - The Logical Song 29.06.2009 5:22pm
B.J. Thomas - Hooked On A Feeling 29.06.2009 5:26pm
Grand Funk Railroad - Some Kind Of Wonderful 29.06.2009 5:29pm
Alice Cooper - School's Out 29.06.2009 5:32pm
Norman Greenbaum - Spirit In The Sky 29.06.2009 5:43pm
The Temptations - Ain't Too Proud To Beg 29.06.2009 5:47pm
Rod Stewart - Young Turks 29.06.2009 5:50pm
Seals & Crofts - Get Closer (w/ Carolyn Willis) 29.06.2009 6:00pm
The Rolling Stones - Miss You 29.06.2009 6:04pm
Jackson Browne - Doctor My Eyes 29.06.2009 6:08pm
The Beach Boys - Kokomo 29.06.2009 6:11pm
Peter Frampton - Baby, I Love Your Way 29.06.2009 6:14pm
Foreigner - Feels Like The First Time 29.06.2009 6:19pm
Billy Joel - Big Shot 29.06.2009 6:27pm
Three Dog Night - Joy To The World 29.06.2009 6:31pm
Linda Ronstadt - When Will I Be Loved 29.06.2009 6:35pm
Chicago - Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is? 29.06.2009 6:42pm
Kansas - Carry On Wayward Son 29.06.2009 6:45pm
Van Morrison - Brown Eyed Girl 29.06.2009 6:51pm
Stevie Wonder - Superstition 29.06.2009 6:59pm
Creedence Clearwater Revival - Have You Ever Seen The Rain 29.06.2009 7:03pm
Boston - Don't Look Back 29.06.2009 7:06pm
The Box Tops - The Letter 29.06.2009 7:12pm
Fleetwood Mac - Landslide 29.06.2009 7:14pm
Rick Springfield - Jessie's Girl 29.06.2009 7:18pme
The Rolling Stones - Gimme Shelter 29.06.2009 7:21pm
The Eagles - Peaceful, Easy Feeling 29.06.2009 7:26pm
Huey Lewis & The News - The Power Of Love 29.06.2009 7:30pm
Wings - Live And Let Die 29.06.2009 7:34pm
The Kinks - Lola 29.06.2009 7:40pm
Queen - We Will Rock You 29.06.2009 7:45pm
Queen - We Are The Champions 29.06.2009 7:46pm
Tommy James - Draggin' The Line 29.06.2009 7:49pm
Paul Simon - Kodachrome

EDIT:  Just saw Jason's response.  Thanks for the thoughts and the data.

 

[alans613]

I agree that Columbus doesn't need two Mainstream ACs in one market. Also Columbus could benefit from a Classic Hits or even Adult Hits-type station and on a Big Stick(TED doesn't count because it might as well have not existed since it was on 103.9). ;D

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

So, if you want an example of a VERY MAINSTREAM (and very widely successful, especially with the PPM) music format that has never been tried on a BIG SIGNAL in Columbus, there you have it. A bastardized execution does not qualify as a trial. This is a Classic (no pun intended) example of how local Big Signals have been doggedly narrow in terms of what they have tried. Why two mainstream AC's instead of one mainstream AC and one Classic Hits, when there are so few big-signal music options? And note that it wouldn't require 97.1 changing back to music to accomplish this sensible change in the local format landscape.

Guess I've gotta "de-lump" you again.

I'm not going to agree 100%, but I see your point. I do like the format myself, and think it has a decent shot at adult listeners if executed properly...both on the air and off the air. If I were in the market, I'd probably be a listener to such a station at least to some degree.

There's a slight problem though...

The classic hits format has struggled to reposition itself, demographically. "Oldies" is basically dead as a term on the FM band, and the former oldies stations have had to move younger demographically...with some success, some not having success.

The theoretical "big signal" Columbus classic hits station would have these same struggles with music mix and demographics. WGRR in Cincy has gone through this as well.

Advantage? I think Columbus would be a great market for this kind of station.

Signal woes aside, I'm not sure 104.3 is a player in this format. I've generally been in Columbus on weekends or outside of drive time, and 104.3 is a standard satellite-fed classic hits station you can find in any city. (I don't know what format they're using - Dial Global? I don't think it's Citadel's Pure Gold...)

Big signal, mostly local focus? Maybe it's a different story.