LOL --- HD Radio Is Agent Orange!

[audiophile.]

Metro Detroit: Newsmakers Jan 5, 2007
North American International Auto Show to get big HD radio push:
The automotive industry will be discovering HD digital radio in a big way during this year’s North American International Auto Show, with a mobile HD digital radio promotion debuting in Detroit on Wednesday, January 10 and continuing throughout the show.

On Wednesday and Thursday (1/10-11), a fifteen-person HD radio street team will paint the town orange as they fan out in orange jump suits and hats to hand out HD Radio lanyards and VIP cards near the People Mover exits at Cobo Hall. Once you get your VIP card, go to www.HDRadio.com and register your phone number for a chance to win an HD Radio converter that will turn any AM/FM car radio into an HD digital radio. The rules of the contest are posted on the site.

HD radio will also be hitting the streets of Detroit with five mobile billboards featuring exciting new HD radio creatives (below) with night illumination, which will be covering the Cobo Center parking lot for the first and second weekends of the show (Fri-Sun 1/12-14 and Sat-Sun 1/20-21). The mobile message of “Drive, Listen, Love” is sure to resonate with consumers and with an automotive industry seeking the latest and greatest in in-vehicle entertainment. With new automotive HD radio receivers and converter devices coming onto the market soon, NAIAS is the ideal time to get the word out. http://www.michiguide.com/

And the point of convertor would be?

So FM sounds like FM?

So AM sounds like dial-up streaming on FM?


PS HD Radio (AKA Agent Orange) is known carcinogen, killing radio reception on first on second adjacents everywhere. Exposure to HD radio transmissions should be avoided to prevent irritability in the ears of analog listeners ;D

 

[Mike Walker]

AM HD (probably) does significant damage to first and second adjacents. But FM is a different story.

It isn't just theory. I have some FM HD stations on first adjacents to non-hd stations that I enjoy. There is NO additional interference (to the adjacent station) since they've gone HD. None. It sounds the same.

Yeah, at first blush FM converters for HD would seem silly. But consider that analog FM is capable of MUCH better quality than most have ever heard. it's distance and multipath that causes most of the audible problems. A converter connected directly to the antenna overcomes much of this. Much, not all. It WILL reduce dynamic range from the 96db of an HD signal to the perhaps 60db of typical FM Stereo. Remember, we're talking about in-car listening, so the odds of hearing noise are small. The highs won't sound as "clear and open" as with a good direct connection, that's true. But the prime draw for everyone other than audiophiles is going to be additional programming FOR FREE (after the radio's paid for). THAT is the "power-app" of HD. And that gets through an HD converter just fine.

I remember my FM converter that I had in my 1972 Chevelle SS when I was a teenager. GOD I LOVED THAT CAR! FM stations had no high end (duh!) played through the am radio. I remember the little bell going "ding" in "Tin Man" by America sounded MUCH better on an AM station than an FM played through the AM radio via the converter. But it brought in WONDERFUL stations I wouldn't have had in my car otherwise. I was into audio even then, but CONTENT is what wins out for me. Always has. I'd rather read a crumpled, used paperback of a great novel, than a pristine first-edition of a lousy one! CONTENT is where it's at. if people find something of value, they'll be all over HD. If they don't, they won't. Simple as that.

Enjoy your weekend!

 

[audiophile.]

You are denial about the interference on FM. In some instances what you are saying is true, but in others it is not.

I discussed it here:
http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,45279.0.html
http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,46560.0.html
http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,49913.0.html

The math is pretty simple: look at the difference between 1st and 2nd adjacent protection: 46 dB. Now look at the power ratio between the analog signal and an IBOC digital sideband on one 1st adjacent: 23 dB. Clearly, any 2nd adjacent scenario which just meets the protection rules produces a situation where 1st adjacent protection is violated when IBOC is used. Trouble is, the protection rules are blind to this situation, thanks to the way IBOC was sneaked in "under the mask".

The NAB knew years ago that there would be collateral damage like this, especially for rimshots and the like. They went ahead and pushed IBOC anyway, because it was the only digital broadcast technology that was politically acceptable to them. Now we're starting to suffer the consequences.

The FCC has bought the argument that this "short term pain" is a necessary part of the transition to digital. :

 

[700WLW]

CONTENT is where it's at. if people find something of value, they'll be all over HD. If they don't, they won't. Simple as that.

Enjoy your weekend!

They won't !

 

[ElCheapo]

The FCC has bought the argument that this "short term pain" is a necessary part of the transition to digital. :

Well, that's a good thing. Just call it eminent domain of the airwaves.

Of course, the concept of eminent domain is that a few suffer for the benefit of everyone else.

My mother's childhood home was effected by eminent domain. When I-40 came through, as a replacement for the old Route 66, her home went from in the middle of a nice residential neighborhood to interstate highway adjacent. Naturally, my grandparents property values plumetted. The state only took a 5' wide section of their property, though they wish they had taken it all.

That's pretty tough... But millions and millions of people have enjoyed the convenience that highway offers.

You might argue there was nothing wrong with the old Route 66, but if you look at the improvements the interstate offered - it's undeniably better for most people.

I enjoy the highways I drive on that came about as a result of eminent domain, and I enjoy the HD2 channels too - as will millions of other people.

And oh yeah - the point of the converter is the same as the early FM on AM converters - you get more channels.

 

[dbdigital]

The FCC has bought the argument that this "short term pain" is a necessary part of the transition to digital. :

Well, that's a good thing. Just call it eminent domain of the airwaves.

Of course, the concept of eminent domain is that a few suffer for the benefit of everyone else.

My mother's childhood home was effected by eminent domain. When I-40 came through, as a replacement for the old Route 66, her home went from in the middle of a nice residential neighborhood to interstate highway adjacent. Naturally, my grandparents property values plumetted. The state only took a 5' wide section of their property, though they wish they had taken it all.

That's pretty tough... But millions and millions of people have enjoyed the convenience that highway offers.

You might argue there was nothing wrong with the old Route 66, but if you look at the improvements the interstate offered - it's undeniably better for most people.

I enjoy the highways I drive on that came about as a result of eminent domain, and I enjoy the HD2 channels too - as will millions of other people.

And oh yeah - the point of the converter is the same as the early FM on AM converters - you get more channels.

The problem with that analogy is that eminent domain is the seizure of private property for public use while the airwaves have belonged to the public (in theory anyway) all along.

With IBOC it's a case of the HD cartel seizing more of the public's radio spectrum for their own private use.

You could say it's eminent domain in reverse!

db

 

[Chuck]

The problem with that analogy is that eminent domain is the seizure of private property for public use while the airwaves have belonged to the public (in theory anyway) all along.

With IBOC it's a case of the HD cartel seizing more of the public's radio spectrum for their own private use.

You could say it's eminent domain in reverse!

db

In Eminent Domain, the person whose property is seized is usually compensated for it. It usually isn't what they think it is worth, but that is another story.

In the case of smaller stations who might suffer interference problems, I suspect there will be very little they can do about it.

 

[ElCheapo]

The problem with that analogy is that eminent domain is the seizure of private property for public use while the airwaves have belonged to the public (in theory anyway) all along.

With IBOC it's a case of the HD cartel seizing more of the public's radio spectrum for their own private use.

You could say it's eminent domain in reverse!

Hey, the Supreme Court seems OK with that concept too...

Regardless, most of the listening public will benefit from the enhanced audio quality and HD2 programming offered by HD Radio.

I suspect if you asked the average Joe on the street if he'd be willing to trade a few rimshot signals for an effective doubling of his free radio listening choices, he'd be more than happy with that swap.

 

[w9wi]

Regardless, most of the listening public will benefit from the enhanced audio quality and HD2 programming offered by HD Radio.

I suspect if you asked the average Joe on the street if he'd be willing to trade a few rimshot signals for an effective doubling of his free radio listening choices, he'd be more than happy with that swap.

Until he finds out he's got to replace all his radios to get it...

 

[700WLW]

Regardless, most of the listening public will benefit from the enhanced audio quality and HD2 programming offered by HD Radio.

I suspect if you asked the average Joe on the street if he'd be willing to trade a few rimshot signals for an effective doubling of his free radio listening choices, he'd be more than happy with that swap.

Well, looks like the "average Joe" hasn't fallen for the farce ! What, has this forum turned into a platform for HD Radio/IBOC shill'n !

 

[ElCheapo]

Until he finds out he's got to replace all his radios to get it...

Well, that prospect is certainly no worse than being forced into buying an HDTV - and unlike that upgrade, this one is optional.

Besides, average Joe's next car will most likely come with HD installed. I bought a new Toyota this year. When I'm ready to replace it 4-5 years from now, all new cars will come equipped with HD.

 

[700WLW]

Until he finds out he's got to replace all his radios to get it...

Well, that prospect is certainly no worse than being forced into buying an HDTV - and unlike that upgrade, this one is optional.

Besides, average Joe's next car will most likely come with HD installed. I bought a new Toyota this year. When I'm ready to replace it 4-5 years from now, all new cars will come equipped with HD.

Hate to tell you, but new cars will have Sync, or equivalent, or the next-generation Satellite Radio - just as with table-top HD Radio. there is no consumer interest, in this defective technology. BTW, HDTV converters, when produced in mass quantites, will be much less expensive than defective HD radios - consumers do not have a choice with HDTV, as they do with HD Radio. Only 33,000 HD radios sold, through 2006 - what, a miserable failure !

 

[ElCheapo]

Hate to tell you, but new cars will have Sync, or equivalent, or the next-generation Satellite Radio - just as with table-top HD Radio. there is no consumer interest, in this defective technology. BTW, HDTV converters, when produced in mass quantites, will be much less expensive than defective HD radios - consumers do not have a choice with HDTV, as they do with HD Radio. Only 33,000 HD radios sold, through 2006 - what, a miserable failure !

Hate to tell you, but as of right now, Sync is vaporware - as is this next-gen XM product.

In-dash factory HD Radio is real.

Personally, I couldn't be happier that XM is launching more video and data services. That means even less bandwidth will be available for their music channels and audio quality will continue to go downhill. Their audio already tops out at around 10,000 Hz. The more non-audio features they add, the more their audio will suffer.

Which of course, is great for HD Radio.

 

[700WLW]

Hate to tell you, but new cars will have Sync, or equivalent, or the next-generation Satellite Radio - just as with table-top HD Radio. there is no consumer interest, in this defective technology. BTW, HDTV converters, when produced in mass quantites, will be much less expensive than defective HD radios - consumers do not have a choice with HDTV, as they do with HD Radio. Only 33,000 HD radios sold, through 2006 - what, a miserable failure !

Hate to tell you, but as of right now, Sync is vaporware - as is this next-gen XM product.

In-dash factory HD Radio is real.

Personally, I couldn't be happier that XM is launching more video and data services. That means even less bandwidth will be available for their music channels and audio quality will continue to go downhill. Their audio already tops out at around 10,000 Hz. The more non-audio features they add, the more their audio will suffer.

Which of course, is great for HD Radio.

Vapor-ware ? They will be in-dash next year, and HD Radio will be vapor !

"Tomorrow's Satellite Radio..."

"Once again, can commercial radio do this?"

http://www.hear2.com/2007/01/tomorrows_satel.html#comments

"At Ford, Windows is Job One"

"What is YOUR group doing to be in front of this trend? What is YOUR group doing to be in every car in every way in 2007 and beyond? What content do you have that every Ford will want to stream? And where does this leave satellite radio and especially HD radio?"

http://www.hear2.com/2006/12/at_ford_windows.html#comments

IBOC supporters, are in such denial !

 

[ElCheapo]

Hate to tell you, but new cars will have Sync, or equivalent, or the next-generation Satellite Radio - just as with table-top HD Radio. there is no consumer interest, in this defective technology. BTW, HDTV converters, when produced in mass quantites, will be much less expensive than defective HD radios - consumers do not have a choice with HDTV, as they do with HD Radio. Only 33,000 HD radios sold, through 2006 - what, a miserable failure !

Hate to tell you, but as of right now, Sync is vaporware - as is this next-gen XM product.

In-dash factory HD Radio is real.

Personally, I couldn't be happier that XM is launching more video and data services. That means even less bandwidth will be available for their music channels and audio quality will continue to go downhill. Their audio already tops out at around 10,000 Hz. The more non-audio features they add, the more their audio will suffer.

Which of course, is great for HD Radio.

Vapor-ware ? They will be in-dash next year, and HD Radio will be vapor !

"Tomorrow's Satellite Radio..."

"Once again, can commercial radio do this?"

http://www.hear2.com/2007/01/tomorrows_satel.html#comments

"At Ford, Windows is Job One"

"What is YOUR group doing to be in front of this trend? What is YOUR group doing to be in every car in every way in 2007 and beyond? What content do you have that every Ford will want to stream? And where does this leave satellite radio and especially HD radio?"

http://www.hear2.com/2006/12/at_ford_windows.html#comments

IBOC supporters, are in such denial !

You're supposed to be a computer programmer by trade - right?

I'm seriously starting to doubt that. You clearly don't understand the meaning of the word "vaporware."

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
va·por·ware /ˈveɪpərˌwɛər/ –noun

Computer Slang. a product, esp. software, that is promoted or marketed while it is still in development and that may never be produced.

In-dash HD Radio is being demoed right now at CES. These other technologies are still in development.

And again, streaming audio on these devices has not been announced - at all. That fanciful notion is merely a product of the vapor between Mark Ramsey's ears.

 

[dbdigital]

The problem with that analogy is that eminent domain is the seizure of private property for public use while the airwaves have belonged to the public (in theory anyway) all along.

With IBOC it's a case of the HD cartel seizing more of the public's radio spectrum for their own private use.

You could say it's eminent domain in reverse!

Hey, the Supreme Court seems OK with that concept too...

Regardless, most of the listening public will benefit from the enhanced audio quality and HD2 programming offered by HD Radio.

I suspect if you asked the average Joe on the street if he'd be willing to trade a few rimshot signals for an effective doubling of his free radio listening choices, he'd be more than happy with that swap.

Yes, but how is the public good being served by such a confiscation of public airwaves?

For example, the City of Anaheim has used eminent domain to help Disneyland expand. Perhaps (or not) the owner of the property was compensated fairly, but how has the public benefited from such an expansion? Additional parking, a few more gift shops and restaurants, a few more yards of track for an existing ride? Really, the public good was not much served by such a move while the Disney Company was hansomely served by it. In fact, some of the public, in this case older folks who were forced to move out of their mobile homes, was actually harmed by the expansion.

So how is the public served by the HD cartel grabbing more radio spectrum then they are allowed? An additional voice-tracked audio stream which will soon have commercials? While the public loses diversity of programming as rimshot or weaker stations are shut out.

In this case the compensation and service to the public good is minimal or zero, while Clear Channel and the other media conglomerates stand to benefit greatly from it.

db

 

[ElCheapo]

Yes, but how is the public good being served by such a confiscation of public airwaves?

For example, the City of Anaheim has used eminent domain to help Disneyland expand. Perhaps (or not) the owner of the property was compensated fairly, but how has the public benefited from such an expansion? Additional parking, a few more gift shops and restaurants, a few more yards of track for an existing ride? Really, the public good was not much served by such a move while the Disney Company was hansomely served by it. In fact, some of the public, in this case older folks who were forced to move out of their mobile homes, was actually harmed by the expansion.

So how is the public served by the HD cartel grabbing more radio spectrum then they are allowed? An additional voice-tracked audio stream which will soon have commercials? While the public loses diversity of programming as rimshot or weaker stations are shut out.

In this case the compensation and service to the public good is minimal or zero, while Clear Channel and the other media conglomerates stand to benefit greatly from it.

db

You make it sound as if there is actually something worth hearing on these rimshots and as if many people are dying to listen to them outside their primary service areas.

Here's a hint - they're not. If you can provide me with proof of substantial listening to rimshot stations (examples from Arbitron perhaps) I might buy into your argument.

Regardless, HD on FM is providing dozens of new programming choices per market.

And how exactly is Clear Channel supposed to benefit if the public doesn't? If the public is listening, they're benefiting. If the public is listening, Clear Channel makes a profit on HD. It's a symbiotic relationship.

 

[Chuck]

You make it sound as if there is actually something worth hearing on these rimshots and as if many people are dying to listen to them outside their primary service areas.

Here's a hint - they're not. If you can provide me with proof of substantial listening to rimshot stations (examples from Arbitron perhaps) I might buy into your argument.

Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the station. I know there are some rim-shots in Dallas that do fairly well.

As you've noted, signal strength is not one of my station's strong spots, but we've done reasonably well in ratings, at least in the areas where we are receivable. We are an NCE, so you won't find them on the Radio and Records areas. Perhaps Arbitron doesn't want to show commercial stations that some noncoms actually have listeners. Several other NCE's in the area did well too.

Since it is a violation of the terms of service to quote any ratings I will refrain, from posting any specifics, but I think it would be OK to say that in some time slots AQH in 12+ was over a "2" and in 50+ well over a 5. Those are not exact numbers. Our format is intended for people over 45. Somebody seems to be listening. It's a group of people who have been forgotten by regular radio. I guess power isn't everything. Incidentally, there are well over 35 stations in the market. Some were not rated at all.

 

[dbdigital]

Yes, but how is the public good being served by such a confiscation of public airwaves?

For example, the City of Anaheim has used eminent domain to help Disneyland expand. Perhaps (or not) the owner of the property was compensated fairly, but how has the public benefited from such an expansion? Additional parking, a few more gift shops and restaurants, a few more yards of track for an existing ride? Really, the public good was not much served by such a move while the Disney Company was hansomely served by it. In fact, some of the public, in this case older folks who were forced to move out of their mobile homes, was actually harmed by the expansion.

So how is the public served by the HD cartel grabbing more radio spectrum then they are allowed? An additional voice-tracked audio stream which will soon have commercials? While the public loses diversity of programming as rimshot or weaker stations are shut out.

In this case the compensation and service to the public good is minimal or zero, while Clear Channel and the other media conglomerates stand to benefit greatly from it.

db

You make it sound as if there is actually something worth hearing on these rimshots and as if many people are dying to listen to them outside their primary service areas.

Here's a hint - they're not. If you can provide me with proof of substantial listening to rimshot stations (examples from Arbitron perhaps) I might buy into your argument.

Regardless, HD on FM is providing dozens of new programming choices per market.

And how exactly is Clear Channel supposed to benefit if the public doesn't? If the public is listening, they're benefiting. If the public is listening, Clear Channel makes a profit on HD. It's a symbiotic relationship.

Conversely, you make it sound as if no rimshot in any part of the country is worth listening to.

Actually, it isn't so much the rimshots that concern me as LPFMs which are forced to accept any interference that comes from neighboring full power stations.

But regardless of whether low powered stations are affected or not, no station has the right to take more spectrum then has been licensed to it. As has been clearly documented, IBOC effectively does just that all for the dubious benefit of the giving the public one more audio stream to listen to. There is no indication that the public needs or wants more "stations between stations"; just existing stations doing their jobs properly would be a good start.

The eminent domain analogy was a cynical, lame rationale for the HD cartel to take what doesn't belong to them.

db

 

[ElCheapo]

Yes, but how is the public good being served by such a confiscation of public airwaves?

For example, the City of Anaheim has used eminent domain to help Disneyland expand. Perhaps (or not) the owner of the property was compensated fairly, but how has the public benefited from such an expansion? Additional parking, a few more gift shops and restaurants, a few more yards of track for an existing ride? Really, the public good was not much served by such a move while the Disney Company was hansomely served by it. In fact, some of the public, in this case older folks who were forced to move out of their mobile homes, was actually harmed by the expansion.

So how is the public served by the HD cartel grabbing more radio spectrum then they are allowed? An additional voice-tracked audio stream which will soon have commercials? While the public loses diversity of programming as rimshot or weaker stations are shut out.

In this case the compensation and service to the public good is minimal or zero, while Clear Channel and the other media conglomerates stand to benefit greatly from it.

db

You make it sound as if there is actually something worth hearing on these rimshots and as if many people are dying to listen to them outside their primary service areas.

Here's a hint - they're not. If you can provide me with proof of substantial listening to rimshot stations (examples from Arbitron perhaps) I might buy into your argument.

Regardless, HD on FM is providing dozens of new programming choices per market.

And how exactly is Clear Channel supposed to benefit if the public doesn't? If the public is listening, they're benefiting. If the public is listening, Clear Channel makes a profit on HD. It's a symbiotic relationship.

Conversely, you make it sound as if no rimshot in any part of the country is worth listening to.

Actually, it isn't so much the rimshots that concern me as LPFMs which are forced to accept any interference that comes from neighboring full power stations.

But regardless of whether low powered stations are affected or not, no station has the right to take more spectrum then has been licensed to it. As has been clearly documented, IBOC effectively does just that all for the dubious benefit of the giving the public one more audio stream to listen to. There is no indication that the public needs or wants more "stations between stations"; just existing stations doing their jobs properly would be a good start.

The eminent domain analogy was a cynical, lame rationale for the HD cartel to take what doesn't belong to them.

db

And yet it bothers you so much! ;D