louisNatl asks, What Will Save the AM Band?

[EbolaMonkey]

If you want to sample HD AM and check the stereo and so on, buy a radio and listen. Any recording is going to be colored by the codec it is converted to by recording in a portable format. Obviously, if you are so anxious to hear HD, it means you have never heard it and have no idea how nice it sounds, AM or FM.

That's weak. Give us some hard evidence, holmes. As I said, I'm in Dallas and there aren't any IBOC AM stereo signals here. And I've never gotten an IBOC AM mono to come in at a Radio Shack either.

If you want to prove your point, cough up an air check. Surely you've got a portable DAT recorder or a flash recorder available to you. When you're in a market with a stereo AM IBOC, snag us an air check. When you dump it to your computer, save it as a PCM .wav file. Trust me, the journey from DAT or Flash drive to PCM .wav won't mess up the air check. It's the IBOC signal you should worry about.

Not really. You mentioned hiphop, CHR and modern rock first. The fact is, that those genres actually are only about half the listening by 18-34's.

Ahh... I see. Your original reference to "30.9%" wasn't written clearly.

So my suspicion that most of the 18 to 34 demo listens to hip hop, CHR and modern rock should be amended. 50 percent of them, by far the largest percentage, listen to those genres. When the 30 percent of Spanish speakers is factored out, the overwhelming number of English listeners are indeed listening to exactly what I claimed they were. Sorry, I don't factor Spanish radio into my stats.

When you're on a Spanish language board in a Spanish speaking country, maybe you find them to be equally uninterested in English speaking stats.

most receivers sold today are not stereo to begin with.

But to keep that stat relevant to this conversation, do you have a stat on the receivers the 18 to 34 demo purchases? iPods, Walkmans, Jam Boxes. They don't buy kitchen table radios, Dave.

"Control board" ? I guess you do not spend much time in a radio station, if you have ever been in one.

What do you call it? If it's a Spanglish term, please forgive me for not having it available. Seriously, I've always heard the on-air studio's board referred to as a "control board." Or the FM studio board. I guess there are other terms, but I've never run into anyone who was offended by someone calling it a "control board."

There are many freeware audio editors, so your insistence that most teens are criminals is exaggerated. In fact, one of the least likely pirated apps is Audition as it requires a key, and activation, and can deactivate itself via any attempt to update a pirate copy.

It's not that tough to pirate Audition. I'm not a hacker myself, but I've run into plenty of 20 and 30-somethings over the years who know where to go on the Internet to find serial numbers, software keys, codes, etc.

 

[davideduardo]

That's weak. Give us some hard evidence, holmes. As I said, I'm in Dallas and there aren't any IBOC AM stereo signals here. And I've never gotten an IBOC AM mono to come in at a Radio Shack either.

As suspected, you do not have a receiver. I'm listening right now to 710 ESPN in full separable stereo. You can hear where each participant in group discussions is coming from.

If you want to prove your point, cough up an air check.

As I said, any aircheck will be colored by adding an additional codec to the recording; dueling codecs is the bane of audio right now.

Surely you've got a portable DAT recorder or a flash recorder available to you.

I have not seen a DAT for several years. As someone once said, a DAT is a midget VHS with an attitude. I can't believe you would think there are any around any more.

When you're in a market with a stereo AM IBOC, snag us an air check.

There are a half dozen in LA alone.

When you dump it to your computer, save it as a PCM .wav file. Trust me, the journey from DAT or Flash drive to PCM .wav won't mess up the air check. It's the IBOC signal you should worry about.

The HD signal is robust to the extent of the coverage countour that regular listening occurs. As mentioned before, I had KFYI in Phoenix with full HD in Stereo out nearly 90 miles from downtown Phoenix (McDowell and Central as a reference) on my OEM car radio last Thursday. That is way beyond the Arbitron radio market borders, by the way. I could also carry the viable FMs to beyond the market limits, too.

[/quote]Not really. You mentioned hiphop, CHR and modern rock first. The fact is, that those genres actually are only about half the listening by 18-34's.

Ahh... I see. Your original reference to "30.9%" wasn't written clearly. [/quote]

It was perfectly clear. I said you were ignoring the nearly one-third of 18-34 listening that went to the Spanish langauge stations in Dallas... beyond that, of the remaining percentage, a large part does not listen to the three formats you mention, with huge shares going to Country and AC, for example.

So my suspicion that most of the 18 to 34 demo listens to hip hop, CHR and modern rock should be amended. 50 percent of them, by far the largest percentage, listen to those genres.

In Dallas, 31% listens to Spanish language formats. Another 15% listens to AC variants and Country. And then there is a smattering of Ticket, Live, Jack, Contemporary Christian (about 4% there alone), Urban AC and other formats that do not fit your definition. The sum of KDGE, KHKS and KKDA in the demo is about 16 share points. Add in some of the "groud clutter" fringe stations, and maybe you have a 20 share, being generous, for the three formats you mentioned.

When the 30 percent of Spanish speakers is factored out, the overwhelming number of English listeners are indeed listening to exactly what I claimed they were.

Not really. Of the non-Hispanic listeners, less about a quarter listen to KHKS, KKDA and KDGE.

Sorry, I don't factor Spanish radio into my stats.

Since about 40% of the metro is Hispanic in 18-34, you had better change your assumptions. We all compete for the same 100 available share points.

When you're on a Spanish language board in a Spanish speaking country, maybe you find them to be equally uninterested in English speaking stats.

If there is a significant percentage of English speakers in a market, the subject is relevant as, just as I said, there are 100 share points for all to divide. In fact, in most Spanish speaking nations, stations with 100% English music are often at or near the top of the ratings.

But to keep that stat relevant to this conversation, do you have a stat on the receivers the 18 to 34 demo purchases? iPods, Walkmans, Jam Boxes. They don't buy kitchen table radios, Dave.

iPods don't have radios. Most MP3 players don't. The major exception is some of the SanDisk ones, which have FM and can record off air, too.

Most of the 18-34's I know have clock radios and even bathroom or shower radios. They are monaural.

"Control board" ? I guess you do not spend much time in a radio station, if you have ever been in one.

[/quote]What do you call it? If it's a Spanglish term, please forgive me for not having it available.[/quote]

"Board" if on the air, mixer or board in the production rooms.

It's not that tough to pirate Audition. I'm not a hacker myself, but I've run into plenty of 20 and 30-somethings over the years who know where to go on the Internet to find serial numbers, software keys, codes, etc.

Audition is a relatively new product, created when Adobe bought, I believe, Cool Edit. And it is a bitch to run a pirate copy as it wants, like all Adobe products, to check the licence for validity; unlicensed serial numbers will work for a while, but then die. It takes reinstalling over and over. It's easier to use a freeware app, and many have pretty complete features and plug-ins.

 

[EbolaMonkey]

As suspected, you do not have a receiver. I'm listening right now to 710 ESPN in full separable stereo. You can hear where each participant in group discussions is coming from.

Then air check it and and move this conversation forward. A spot break would be ideal, since there might be a spot with a stereo music bed. Or a return bumper would help.

You don't have to worry about "codec coloring" if you record to PCM .wav. It's basically a raw file. Trust me, I've dealt with codec issues. The limiting factor will be the IBOC.

I have not seen a DAT for several years. As someone once said, a DAT is a midget VHS with an attitude. I can't believe you would think there are any around any more.

They're around. Most production rooms still have DAT players in them, mainly because not everyone has converted their DAT archives to CD. It's a time consuming process. But I also recommended that you use a flash recorder. Try reading to the end of sentences.

The sum of KDGE, KHKS and KKDA in the demo is about 16 share points.

Hello? 97.9 the Beat? And check the Billboard sales charts. Those are the genres at the top.

Most of the 18-34's I know have clock radios and even bathroom or shower radios. They are monaural.

You're getting weaker and weaker. How many kids are jamming to their clock radios? The 70's didn't treat you well, did they? I'll say this, though. Walk into a Target or a Best Buy, and most clock radios on the shelf are mini-jam boxes with full stereo.

"Board" if on the air, mixer or board in the production rooms.

And "control board" is completely unacceptable, eh? You need to re-examine your hang-ups.

Audition is a relatively new product, created when Adobe bought, I believe, Cool Edit. And it is a bitch to run a pirate copy as it wants, like all Adobe products, to check the licence for validity; unlicensed serial numbers will work for a while, but then die. It takes reinstalling over and over. It's easier to use a freeware app, and many have pretty complete features and plug-ins.

For you, I guess. Maybe you're getting old, Dave.

 

[davideduardo]

Then air check it and and move this conversation forward. A spot break would be ideal, since there might be a spot with a stereo music bed. Or a return bumper would help.

Just listen to 50 kw KFLC 1270. Stereo. HD. No off air recording needed.

They're around. Most production rooms still have DAT players in them, mainly because not everyone has converted their DAT archives to CD. It's a time consuming process.

Most places have eliminated them, as service is costly if available. The CD replaced DAT many years ago at most stations. And at about a dime for more than a half-gig, a lot cheaper and easy to store than flash, which is just now getting into a decent price range... but the 64 gig flas hard disk I have on order is going to be over a kilobuck, while 65 gigs of CDs is less than $20.

Hello? 97.9 the Beat?

Still less than 20 share points in 18-34.

And check the Billboard sales charts. Those are the genres at the top.

Radio is not record sales.

You're getting weaker and weaker. How many kids are jamming to their clock radios?

It's not about jammin. It's about the time spent listening to the radio, and what kind of radio they listen on most of the time.

The 70's didn't treat you well, did they? I'll say this, though. Walk into a Target or a Best Buy, and most clock radios on the shelf are mini-jam boxes with full stereo.

So? Target and Best Buy also sell many models of clock radios, and the fact is that as much listening is done on that kind of device as any other. The point is that stereo is not the decision making factor in listening. Content is.

[/quote]And "control board" is completely unacceptable, eh? You need to re-examine your hang-ups.[/quote]

I was interpreting the usage as an indication of a lack of knowledge of the inside aspect of a radio station... something you confirmed with your DAT comments. Most of us have had audio on hard disk for a decade or more, not on DATs. And things like MiniDisks and portable digital recorders have been used, as they became available, as they are better and cheaper and do not have the ugly mechanics of a DAT, particularly a portable one.

 

[EbolaMonkey]

Just listen to 50 kw KFLC 1270. Stereo. HD. No off air recording needed.

Man, you are avoiding providing an aircheck like the plague. I've been in an East Dallas Radio Shack and couldn't get KRLD or KAAM to lock on in IBOC. I was in the absolute center of those stations' coverage areas. There's no way I'll get 1270 to come in.

I wanna hear this IBOC AM stereo you say exists on "every" AM IBOC station. Start calling around to station engineers, and you'll find that they don't have it on.

Most places have eliminated them, as service is costly if available.

I've worked for some big stations. And they always have a DAT player in the prod rack. No, they're not in constant use. But you're kidding yourself if you think radio stations don't have them anymore.

I was interpreting the usage as an indication of a lack of knowledge of the inside aspect of a radio station... something you confirmed with your DAT comments.

Guess your asssumptions were wrong.

It's about the time spent listening to the radio, and what kind of radio they listen on most of the time.

And you have research indicating that most of the 18-34 demo is listening to the radio on mono clock radios? I'd love to see it.

The point is that stereo is not the decision making factor in listening. Content is.

Hmm. Where have I read that before? Wait, look at my earlier post:

As I said at the beginning of the thread, AM's only problem is programming.

I agree that content is the overriding factor. Hence my example that Howard would do just fine on an analog AM station. But we were discussing AM IBOC as a viable deliverer of music content. Get that aircheck uploaded so that all of us can hear this robust stereo signal you keep talking about.

Still less than 20 share points in 18-34.

How do KBFB, KHKS, KDGE and KKDA rank in 18-34 persons, mon-sun, 6a-midnight? I bet three are in the top 6 or 7. Again, I rest my case.

 

[oaktree]

"On-air Console for $200, Alex ..."

 

[hipporadio]

Now, AM fan C. Crane weighs-in...

I cannot imagine the current IBOC “HD” scheme as a realistic “salvation” for AM radio when “HD”-capable radios remain deaf to IBOC AM signals. Let’s not even attempt to dispute this concise and widely-held observation. On the current [alleged “second-generation”] crop of “HD” radios, digital-mode reception remains unimpressive at best. The C Crane Company has established itself in the marketplace by filling a small niche for higher-performing AM radios. Interestingly, their self-branded and highest-profile retail product comes from Sangean – a company with a reputation for building consumer-oriented radios with exceptional reception – specifically on AM. It appears that this track record has met a detour.

C Crane recently agreed to offer Sangean’s HDT-1 component “HD” tuner, but not before a “field test” in distant Los Angeles [there are no “HD” stations serving their rural northern California location]. Mr. Crane is unusually “frank” when he details the RF performance capabilities of the products he chooses to carry. He is emblematic of the philosophy that a customer must be satisfied – or little is gained by having that customer.

Here is an example of his “frank” commentary on the HDT-1 – a product the “HD” industry seems to need a case of Depends to cope with their euphoria over – and one from a company that Mr. Crane has a very-close relationship with:

“AM HD reception was poor no matter what (same as with all the HD radios we've tested) - though it did pick up one HD AM station with a strong signal 710. It should be noted that the HDT-1 picks up all the same AM Analog stations as the Sonido Radio.”

http://www.ccrane.com/radios/hd-radio/sangean-hdt-1-hd-radio-component-tuner.aspx

The Sangean Sonido is a slim-line radio that maintains countertop elegance, yet offers lengthy portable performance if so desired [a similar competitive product is the “Songbook” from Tivoli Audio]. The Sonido offers RF performance similar to the Sangean WR-2 and Crane’s “CCRadio” [also made by Sangean]. What is interesting [with respect to the HDT-1] is that Sangean has managed to maintain high AM performance in the analog mode – only reception of the IBOC “HD” mode and its ability to “lock” seems to suffer. I had the same experience with Sangean’s HDR-1 “HD” table radio: although I couldn’t evaluate “HD” performance on AM [because no “HD” station was available in the area] – analog RF and audio performance was very good.

So I’ll recall an earlier opinion...

As for Sangean... Your company produces some of the very-finest radios, but you can’t be expected to routinely turn a lemon [IBOC] into lemonade [a reliable and fulfilling radio experience].

So the operative question remains: To “HD” or NOT to “HD”? Again, a non-starter... The HDR-1 is characteristically-shy of IBOC carriers. As I noted over a year ago – the rough ride may NOT be the fault of the vehicle you’re driving... Consider the poorly-designed highway it travels.

 

[semoochie]

In Portland, KEX's HD is certainly in stereo!

 

[SUPERCASTER]

In Portland, KEX's HD is certainly in stereo!

But the weak, fragile, secondary HD radio stereo signal coverage is much smaller then the already small and problematic mono AM HD signal coverage.

 

[rwagoner]

Re: Now, AM fan C. Crane weighs-in...

“AM HD reception was poor no matter what (same as with all the HD radios we've tested) - though it did pick up one HD AM station with a strong signal 710. It should be noted that the HDT-1 picks up all the same AM Analog stations as the Sonido Radio.”

My HDT-1 gets San Diego's KOGO from Southern Los Angeles (near Long Beach) in HD fairly stable. Stereo? I don't think KOGO broadcasts anything in stereo.

 

[EbolaMonkey]

In Portland, KEX's HD is certainly in stereo!

Can you aircheck a spot break for us, semoochie?

 

[vsa]

Re: Now, AM fan C. Crane weighs-in...

“AM HD reception was poor no matter what (same as with all the HD radios we've tested) - though it did pick up one HD AM station with a strong signal 710. It should be noted that the HDT-1 picks up all the same AM Analog stations as the Sonido Radio.”

My HDT-1 gets San Diego's KOGO from Southern Los Angeles (near Long Beach) in HD fairly stable. Stereo? I don't think KOGO broadcasts anything in stereo.

KOGO-AM 600 has a 5 mV/m signal in the area you speak of, San Pedro. I would hope the HD radio reception there would be much better than "fairly stable".

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Now, AM fan C. Crane weighs-in...

KOGO-AM 600 has a 5 mV/m signal in the area you speak of, San Pedro. I would hope the HD radio reception there would be much better than "fairly stable".

Actually, in larger metros, 5 mv/m is below the level that gets audience as it is subject to man made interference and general noise. Most LA stations, for example, get very little listening outside the 10 mv/m contour... and most is in the 15 mv/m areas.

 

[vsa]

Re: Now, AM fan C. Crane weighs-in...

KOGO-AM 600 has a 5 mV/m signal in the area you speak of, San Pedro. I would hope the HD radio reception there would be much better than "fairly stable".

Actually, in larger metros, 5 mv/m is below the level that gets audience as it is subject to man made interference and general noise. Most LA stations, for example, get very little listening outside the 10 mv/m contour... and most is in the 15 mv/m areas.

David, if HD radio will not provide reliable reception outside the 10 mV/m contour, what good is it? Honestly. It merely duplicates an already strong, clear, static-free signal. You are always talking about the need for more AM stations to have a viable signal. HD radio makes them all less viable.

People buy solutions to problems. HD radio fixes no problems. It leaves inquisitive people with the taste that digital terrestrial radio is feeble when the opposite should be true.

Build a digital system that does not cause new interference, makes more AM stations viable by extending reliable reception over a greater distance, and improves audio quality as a bonus and I'll be as big a supporter and cheerleader as you. It would still be an uphill battle to win consumer ethusiasm, but at least people would have a reason to buy digital radios.

I know you'll say there is no such animal out there. Maybe not, but eccentric Leonard Kahn's CAM-D system seems to come awful close. You may hate him, but don't hate his technology.

http://www.wrathofkahn.org/

If the AM band has any chance at all, and it's certainly a real long shot, something like this is it.

An HD radio system that falls far short of what was promised by iBiquity has wasted very critical time and money for broadcasters and investors who have hoped to preserve the long-term value of their licensed facilities. At this point, new technologies (not satellite) are getting a rapid leg-up in the minds of consumers.

 

[semoochie]

I can't really do anything. My HD is the car variety and I have no way of recording. On top of that, I'm not particularly computer literate. I also agree that anything put over the internet isn't going to have the same sound as the actual product. I will say that after some tweeking by station engineers, KEX sounds pretty good! On one of their syndicated shows, they played an entire song and after actually hearing music, I have to say that it does indeed sound like FM. I didn't think so before but may have been thrown off by the microphones being used and apparently maximized for analog AM. Also, for some reason, their HD has been off the air for several days. Our other HD AM station sounds awful! It's a Crawford religious station, sounds bad on a normal radio and HD just makes the lack of quality all the more noticeable. It also doesn't hold the HD signal very well. I don't know if that's because of the directional signal, power of the station, dial position or some error on their part but it sounds pretty ratty to me! If you would like to know more about the situation at KEX, I would contact Chris Weiss at Clear Channel Porland. He's been around a long time and really knows his stuff!

 

[EbolaMonkey]

On one of their syndicated shows, they played an entire song and after actually hearing music, I have to say that it does indeed sound like FM.

I'm glad you're pleased with the sound. No offense, but I'd have to hear it myself. I've heard from too many people that IBOC AM sounds like a mid-level Internet stream. Since I don't listen to streams at less than 96 kbps on the Internet, I doubt IBOC AM is going to be up to my standards. And I've said before on this board that FM IBOC only interests me at its full 96 kbps bandwidth--without HD-2's.

I have no tolerance for digital artifacts. I'll take the fuzziness of analog AM over artifacts any day. Analog AM at 10 kHz is a no brainer winner over IBOC AM.

 

[semoochie]

I can't tell the difference between 48 and 96! The HD2s sound great!

 

[vsa]

On one of their syndicated shows, they played an entire song and after actually hearing music, I have to say that it does indeed sound like FM.

I'm glad you're pleased with the sound. No offense, but I'd have to hear it myself. I've heard from too many people that IBOC AM sounds like a mid-level Internet stream. Since I don't listen to streams at less than 96 kbps on the Internet, I doubt IBOC AM is going to be up to my standards. And I've said before on this board that FM IBOC only interests me at its full 96 kbps bandwidth--without HD-2's.

I have no tolerance for digital artifacts. I'll take the fuzziness of analog AM over artifacts any day. Analog AM at 10 kHz is a no brainer winner over IBOC AM.

You won't listen to anything below 96kbps in what codec? All codecs are not created equal. Take an mp3 stream at 96. Windows Media sounds better at 64. AAC+ sounds better yet at 48. Actually, AAC+ at 32kbps ain't bad. I've heard some crappy 128kbps mp3 streams and some pretty good 64kbps mp3 streams. QC and processing make a huge difference.

 

[Powell]

Ah no IBOC won't save the AM band. It won't save radio. And you have to understand the power for the digital parts of both MW and VHF are too low. FM is 1%. There was talk of going to 2% and now 10% to get similar coverage. As for MW how much can power be increased to give better coverage. With the Accurian HD, I can get ONE HD station to stone cold reliably decode. I'm 5 miles north and west of USPO 29145. With rabbit ears others will mostly decode. With a Conical on a pole in my living room and a 15 db amp that sorta works well. I guess to get everything I want to hear I need that APS-13 up at about 75 feet. I feel silly wanting to spend an addtional $600 for antenna rotor and tower to listen to a couple more HD stations that offer nothing exciting.

I will say that WLAC 1510 last winter would decode on skywave about half the time. I was cheating by using a tuneable loop. When HD goes on full time at night we will see what WON'T decode.

I'm thinking of getting a the later model of the Sangean tuner.


Powell

 

[rwagoner]

On one of their syndicated shows, they played an entire song and after actually hearing music, I have to say that it does indeed sound like FM.

I'm glad you're pleased with the sound. No offense, but I'd have to hear it myself. I've heard from too many people that IBOC AM sounds like a mid-level Internet stream. Since I don't listen to streams at less than 96 kbps on the Internet, I doubt IBOC AM is going to be up to my standards. And I've said before on this board that FM IBOC only interests me at its full 96 kbps bandwidth--without HD-2's.

I have no tolerance for digital artifacts. I'll take the fuzziness of analog AM over artifacts any day. Analog AM at 10 kHz is a no brainer winner over IBOC AM.

It IS better than that.

Much better.