Make radio strong again

[michael hagerty]

Thanks for the replies. However, I still stand by my comments.

I’m not here to argue and I'm not discrediting those who tried and tried to make things work. I also understand that things can change and sometimes, they can change very quickly. In this industry, you can’t take anything for granted and both my friend and myself realize this. Every market, whether it’s small, medium, large or major is unique. There might be similar characteristics, but there’s also characteristics that make them different.

My friend’s situation and community might be unique in the way that although they have a little over 9,000 people, there is a lot of industry, a lot of good paying jobs and that results in more people supporting local businesses. Sure, some people will drive to a big box store in a neighboring community. That’s just the way it is. However, his stations are still able to bill an incredible amount. Doing the math to consider the differences in population, his stations are consistently billing at or more than what the top stations in DFW bill.

Again, there are a dozens if not hundreds of factors that go into this and I don’t think anyone who has worked in small market radio has had the same experience.

That's exactly it, Chris. Experiences can vary widely. I'm happy for your friend. He sounds like he has a community and an advertising base that can and will support a local radio station.

It's just not a one-size-fits-all recipe for success in all small markets.

 

[Kelly A]

Mike is right, your mileage may vary.

All I can suggest to anyone new to the radio biz, or feeling like the yellow brick road will go on for the foreseeable future is; don't become complacent.
No matter what the size, the advertising-supported model is being turned on its head. Small markets aren't immune from those changes either, some are just delayed.

Have a life/career backup plan ready if you need to keep a roof over your head and food on the table.

 

[TheBigA]

It's just not a one-size-fits-all recipe for success in all small markets.

Or radio in general. The OP started this thread based on the idea that the solution for radio's ills is more localism. That assumes that the situation is strictly about programming, and not about the changes in the entire environment with the internet, streaming options, new technology, and their affect on radio advertising. There are radio stations in major markets with full local staffs, owned by local companies, and they're not immune from the issues affecting the radio industry.

 

[Plate Blocker]

I've read some very well thought out posts in this thread; most refer to the business of radio, and making it more viable. Good thoughts, all of them.

However, the business of radio will thrive if and only if there are more and more ears clamoring for radio. They are not. Spotify.....YouTube Music....Pandora....all found a home, and are where the music listeners of today and tomorrow are.

Old ears don't count. Young ears count. They are not out there like they were when radio was 'great', and less so each and every day.

I read pitiful 'polls', sponsored by the radio industry, crowing about 'facts' like 52% of those 12-24 listened to radio in the past month. That is not something to be proud of. Ask the same group how many listened to streamed music. Yesterday.

Then I read this...even from eight years ago: Millennials Aren't Very Interested In Traditional Radio Any More Things have certainly not improved in the ensuing 8 years.

I 'get' that we are a radio forum, and those that are here are uniquely attached to radio. However, on the train forum, similar discussions are held about what will make passenger trains great again. The arguments are similar. Mostly, they center around people who love trains wanting trains to be great again. Same here.

Young people are the future. They don't seek out radio; they seek out specific music they can control. Change that, and something will change.

 

[TheBigA]

Young people are the future. They don't seek out radio; they seek out specific music they can control. Change that, and something will change.

I agree with all that. Which is why I believe the future of radio is not in traditional music formats with :30 spots. It will be unique content that is owned and originated by the station, typically of a talk nature (since radio companies are not in the music business, as some had been prior to 1988).

 

[tbolt909]

I've read some very well thought out posts in this thread; most refer to the business of radio, and making it more viable. Good thoughts, all of them.

However, the business of radio will thrive if and only if there are more and more ears clamoring for radio. They are not. Spotify.....YouTube Music....Pandora....all found a home, and are where the music listeners of today and tomorrow are.

Old ears don't count. Young ears count. They are not out there like they were when radio was 'great', and less so each and every day.

I read pitiful 'polls', sponsored by the radio industry, crowing about 'facts' like 52% of those 12-24 listened to radio in the past month. That is not something to be proud of. Ask the same group how many listened to streamed music. Yesterday.

Then I read this...even from eight years ago: Millennials Aren't Very Interested In Traditional Radio Any More Things have certainly not improved in the ensuing 8 years.

I 'get' that we are a radio forum, and those that are here are uniquely attached to radio. However, on the train forum, similar discussions are held about what will make passenger trains great again. The arguments are similar. Mostly, they center around people who love trains wanting trains to be great again. Same here.

Young people are the future. They don't seek out radio; they seek out specific music they can control. Change that, and something will change.

The train analogy is interesting. Many other countries have invested in high speed rail. It's modern technology and it's a success. The US is using rail systems that are over 100 years old.

Obviously, Radio is not a railroad. It still will have to deliver content that will resonate with new generations. If it can't, then it will become totally obsolete...

 

[Kelly A]

Obviously, Radio is not a railroad. It still will have to deliver content that will resonate with new generations. If it can't, then it will become totally obsolete...

Despite some of my more dire comments, I disagree that radio will become obsolete, or go away entirely. As BigA mentioned; the remaining stations or groups will need to produce unique programming, and then find a way to reliably pay for it.

Either way, I suspect in another twenty years the broadcast business will look nothing like it did when we were growing up. There will undoubtedly be fewer stations, including the MW/AM band going the way the SW band. Hopefully, the FM band will be much thinner but will be occupied by mainly successful stations with unique, popular content for the day, whatever that turns out to be.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

I still do work for a station thats a locally owned stand alone and doing everything right. Our competitor is 2 Townsquare stations, one with no local programming at all and one with only a little bit.. and 3 dead lawyers estates music jukeboxes with 2 shifts.. not 2 staff.... 2 on air shfits between them all.

We do everything right and still struggle from time to time. We program 24/7 locally, except for 1 4 hour sunday night show. Our format is "AC Variety".... but crosses all musical genres from the 60s to today, centered on 80s to late 2000s. Justin beiber into Gloria Gaynor or Garth Brooks into a low key ALT-ish sounding tune.

Our TSL smashes our competiton by 2x, and most the rest of the market by 2 to 4x

We talk about local things all day every day, we have local non profit/business/city interviews every week day at 8am about whats going on, whats coming up, what they need... etc

If theres breaking news... like a massive power outage, bad weather... a missing kid, we have it on air as soon as we find out about it.. and we've had stuff on air at midnight, 1am

We're involved in events all year long

I say that to say this.. it sounds like were doing everything people say is missing and were doing it right, right?

By the standard of some people who talk about whats wrong with radio, we should be swimming in money right? I wouldn't say were hurting per se or that were teetering on the edge of insolvency.. but we're not making as much money as you think.

The station did move from rented office space after 10 or 11 years to a building they bought and renovated as it was actually going to be cheaper in the long term and we found a GREAT location, just 2 blocks off the center of downtown.

We're locally owned, not ma and pa.. just PA. He owns no other businesses or stations, is not ricvh and he is the sole owner. He's lived in the community his entire life.

If consolidation hadnt happened thanks to the 96 telecom act, the advance of technology wouldve still come along

if the 96 act had happened years later or technology was slower in taking hold, we'd still be about where we are today.

If social media happened years later, we'd be where we are, just a couple years later.

I suspect there are some small stations that have been barely hanging on for years and we just dont know it. I know one now deceased owner in Central PA who was once quoted as saying, "If I sell, what do I do with myself every day? I don't wanna retire". The station wasnt broke, but it was hanging on, barely.

Have you ever tried to convince a local business owner that advertising on social media isnt enough? "But its affordable".. "But I can target my audience even more than radio can "But its free to post on facebook"

I don't care how good your sales people are... some business owners look only at the cost and not always what they get on the other end of it.

Some could argue we have too many radio stations and we do.... too many times people believe because theres an empty allocaiton or a CP to bid on, they should... thinking because theres a frequency there, we need to put it on.

Some could even say that about the station I refer to in my post.......to be effective, the station requires an on channel booster to cover its main city of commerce due to terrain.

What is profitable is different to "PA" who owns one station versus a corporation that has a board of directors and investors.

Alot of owners would love to do more with local programming and content if they could... and its not from a lack of trying that they cant

 

[Kelly A]

By the standard of some people who talk about whats wrong with radio, we should be swimming in money right? I wouldn't say were hurting per se or that were teetering on the edge of insolvency.. but we're not making as much money as you think.

I don't think any pure-play radio business ever made tons of money, certainly not since the 70's. Most businesses that made money with radio also had other non-radio divisions that could prop each other up when one or more sag.
I've always said that bystanders who think there's a ton to be made in radio, have never worked in radio.

I suspect there are some small stations that have been barely hanging on for years and we just dont know it. I know one now deceased owner in Central PA who was once quoted as saying, "If I sell, what do I do with myself every day? I don't wanna retire". The station wasnt broke, but it was hanging on, barely.

For example; in Wenatchee, Washington, a nice medium-sized community in Eastern Washington State, 80% of the radio stations are either close to or facing bankruptcy. This year alone, I've been approached by several brokers and owners wondering if I'd be interested in either partnering or buying them out. In all cases, my answer had been no thank you.

Have you ever tried to convince a local business owner that advertising on social media isnt enough? "But its affordable".. "But I can target my audience even more than radio can "But its free to post on facebook"

It used to be simpler to counter that claim with results examples. One time when visiting a furniture client, they brought up moving 100% of their ad budget to Facebook and Instagram. I asked them what the conversion ratio was comparing customers from social media verses their past advertising on local radio.
All they were focused on was the cost vs. reach of social media instead of radio. So next, I asked; last time we did a Saturday remote from your store, didn't the number of folks through the door that bought something completely outweigh the number of actual, or potential customers you'd seen in one day from social media? Their reply was: But social media is where all the young consumers are, not radio.

Alot of owners would love to do more with local programming and content if they could... and its not from a lack of trying that they cant

They're going to need to for survival. That doesn't mean time and weather, stupid 'tradeio', high school or pee wee football, or someone reading obituaries. It means investing in programming that either folks will donate to, or remaining local businesses would sponsor. If you can't afford that, then may as well look toward getting out of the business soon.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

For example; in Wenatchee, Washington, a nice medium-sized community in Eastern Washington State, 80% of the radio stations are either close to or facing bankruptcy. This year alone, I've been approached by several brokers and owners wondering if I'd be interested in either partnering or buying them out. In all cases, my answer had been no thank you.

I think some owners hang on a long time is because they know the second they turn it off, they lose half of its value...... and it becomes just stick value.

Even if its barely making it, a station on air is worth more than one off air.. theres some percieved "more value" and potential if its at least on air, i think

 

[Kelly A]

I think some owners hang on a long time is because they know the second they turn it off, they lose half of its value...... and it becomes just stick value.

They should know that they lost more than half of the value back in 2008. The pandemic knocked another 25-30% out. And since nobody is buying based on a multiple of cashflow anymore, most small market stations are stick value or less.

Even if its barely making it, a station on air is worth more than one off air.. theres some percieved "more value" and potential if its at least on air, i think

That depends on whether we're talking about an AM or FM, and how much assets are owned versus leased. Some AMs with actual owned land that might be of interest to housing developers actually have an advantage, at least when it comes to asset value not as a radio station.

Ultimately selling spots for a 'dollar-a-hollar' isn't considered a tangible asset.

 

[b-turner]

Lots of truth here on the situation radio is in financially. I'll cite an example: 40 years ago a client was spending $1,200 a month but today spends $300. Why? Their business is certainly as successful as it always was. There are so many marketing choices that even the station their customers listen to only gets a slice of the pie and not a big slice by any means.

Parts of the country are very responsive to small town stations. It seems in some more eastern southern states, you need a good 25,000 to 30,000 to get billing equal to what a town of about 5,000 in my region will produce. That's not to say every little town of 5,000 has a successful small market station. I know of many 'losers'. There are more losers than winners but in some regions, we're not ready for hospice yet.

Just as important in the small market is the cost of operation. You have to know how to squeeze a nickel from a penny. We're not talking overworking staff with low pay but rather finding creative ways to run an efficient, yet lean operation. There's no way we could have a warm body in the station 24/7 and make it.

 

[michael hagerty]

They should know that they lost more than half of the value back in 2008. The pandemic knocked another 25-30% out.

Case in point, KIBS/KBOV, Bishop...the radio stations where I began my career (started on the AM in 1971, worked there for three years, went to KSLY in San Luis Obispo, came home to help put the FM---then under a different owner---on the air six months later):

https://radiodiscussions.com/threads/bishop-morning-talent-buys-kibs-kbov.772557/#post-6744153

The combo sold for $965,000 20 years ago. It changed hands again this year for $550,000.

 

[boombox4]

For example; in Wenatchee, Washington, a nice medium-sized community in Eastern Washington State, 80% of the radio stations are either close to or facing bankruptcy. This year alone, I've been approached by several brokers and owners wondering if I'd be interested in either partnering or buying them out. In all cases, my answer had been no thank you.

Wow. Wenatchee is a market that's about 50K or more, if you include East Wenatchee. 80% of the stations are close to bankruptcy? That's sad. But it is a bellwether for small market radio, I suppose.

It used to be simpler to counter that claim with results examples. One time when visiting a furniture client, they brought up moving 100% of their ad budget to Facebook and Instagram. I asked them what the conversion ratio was comparing customers from social media verses their past advertising on local radio.
All they were focused on was the cost vs. reach of social media instead of radio. So next, I asked; last time we did a Saturday remote from your store, didn't the number of folks through the door that bought something completely outweigh the number of actual, or potential customers you'd seen in one day from social media? Their reply was: But social media is where all the young consumers are, not radio.

That sounds like a headache, trying to get through to people. From what you're describing, it looks like they're going for social media 'advertising' because of the nature of the platform, as opposed to actual ROI.

 

[Kelly A]

Wow. Wenatchee is a market that's about 50K or more, if you include East Wenatchee. 80% of the stations are close to bankruptcy? That's sad. But it is a bellwether for small market radio, I suppose.

Wenatchee is just one example. Look at most Southern states like Arkansas, Alabama, or Kentucky. They have towns of similar population in number, but Radio is in even worse shape financially. Some station owners are walking away to save themselves.

That sounds like a headache, trying to get through to people. From what you're describing, it looks like they're going for social media 'advertising' because of the nature of the platform, as opposed to actual ROI.

From what I can tell some of that move has been through younger small business management who already live on social media but never had an opportunity to see what radio can do. The other is management who has Millenials and Gen-Z employees and family in their ear injecting FOMO.

In hindsight, I think this is a good example of the downside of saturation. Communities became over-saturated with radio, which was fine until radio was no longer one of three choices for advertising. Online advertising came into town and took 60% or more of the revenue away.

 

[davideduardo]

I read pitiful 'polls', sponsored by the radio industry, crowing about 'facts' like 52% of those 12-24 listened to radio in the past month. That is not something to be proud of. Ask the same group how many listened to streamed music. Yesterday.

Good point. What matters is how much younger people listen... and that figure is dismal.

And, of course, we have to assume that many younger "listeners" hear radio when captive in parents' cars or in homes where mom or dad... if they listen to radio at home... pick "common area" station choices. They are, thus, "hearing" but not "listening".

While advertisers don't care about "hearing" or "listening" since their objective is to put messages in ears, the fact is that much of the 18-34 listening to older targeted stations is this kind of accidental listening and not listening by choice.

 

[Deleted member 76036]

I guess the goal is to figure out how to attract more young ears. It seems like stations are trying to catch some of the young audience on Facebook, Instagram and TikTok. However, it appears that many stations use Facebook only to draw listeners back to their website. I understand that this is done to make money, but does that method actually work when most posts get 1 or 2 likes (or even no interaction), when the station has over 100,000 followers? Would it better to use social media such as Facebook for fun, engagement and to basically spread the word about your station?

Going back to the radio station I used to work for, we decided to use Facebook for fun posts, some giveaways and station events, promotions, Facebook live, etc. I just checked and even though the town where the radio station is located has just over 9,000 people, the Facebook page now has 128,000 followers. In the past week, there are multiple posts that have went viral (over 15k likes) and one even reached 29k likes. Those are artist related posts. Station events/promotions will sometimes reach a few hundred to a few thousand likes, along with hundreds of comments.

The station does stream and I honestly don't think that most Facebook followers have ever listened to the station. However, I guess it’s just another tool. And even though the followers might not be in market, the local advertisers seem to like the exposure when we post something about an event, since it reaches so many people.

Besides being active on social media, any other ideas on how to capture young people’s ears? 🤔

 

[Kent]

I don’t think a lot of you who have never worked in small market radio understand the relationships small market sales people have with their clients. Sure, there may be lots of newer avenues for businesses to get their messages out, but in small towns, many small businesses will advertise on radio. You also have to remember that even some national businesses are franchise operated and their agreements allow them to advertise locally. Fast food restaurants, especially McDonald’s, are still huge advertisers in small markets. I just double checked with a friend and he said that McDonald’s is a combination of agency and local buys at his stations. He also said, “there are tons of local buys if you get your ass out there.” Again, he’s in a small market.

I worked at a small market station that had a similar situation with McDonald's. Yes, small market radio stations do have relationships with their clients, and, unlike in many medium-sized towns, the local businesses still either can't afford and/or can't realize the full benefit of being on TV. Keep in mind, however, that small market buys like that are often dependent on the relationship with the owner. When he sells, retires, dies, or otherwise gets out, many, if not most, of those clients will drop. Assuming he can find a buyer for the station, that buyer will likely have debt and will have to reestablish relationships he needed years to build. That's a daunting task.

Small market radio stations operate very differently in quite a few aspects from sales to programming. In the past, I would’ve said to work your way up to the large and major markets. Nowadays, I totally believe the small markets are the place to be, especially working for small companies. Of course, you have to have the right people in the building to make it work.

I don't know. While we still have vibrant small towns in this country, most of them are in truly dreadful states. Even those that can't support big box retailers are finding their local mom and pop grocery stores closing down. The owners are either retiring with their children not wanting to take their places or getting forced out by Dollar General, which will go just about anywhere. I look at the small town near my grandparents' old house, and it looks pretty sad. I can remember being a kid, stopping by the Rexall Drug and getting a soda at the soda fountain. While there's a mural on the wall commemorating the old Rexall, it's long gone. A home health care business operates out of that location today. The three block downtown is mostly vacant with only one block even close to half occupancy. There's a Dollar General Market on one end of town and a Harp's on the other. The pizza chain that got started in the medium sized city about an hour away has a location in a Phillips 66, and it has a Casey's that has pizza. The town has one Mexican restaurant near the Harp's, the Prairie Rose Cafe near the DG Market, a diner on Main Street, and a donut shop. Looks like a BBQ joint recently opened downtown, too. It has a Napa Auto Parts store and a dispensary or two also. That's about all the commerce still occurring there. It actually has one radio station licensed to it, and it's targeting the Spanish speaking population in a bigger town, which is the county seat, about 10-15 miles down the old Route 66 and the medium sized city an hour away, though you can't hear the station at all in most of the area around it unless you stream it. I can't see where the money would be operating in a town like that.

The county seat 10-15 miles down the road has more businesses, but local retail is mostly gone there, too. About five years ago, the local newspaper wrote an article about how many local businesses the town had in 1982 versus how many it had in 2019. No surprise the radio station licensed there stopped selling locally and started targeting the larger market nearby. It started doing that around 1990.

I also look at the small market where I worked about 15 years ago. I went back there for a day trip a few weeks ago. The local supermarket closed one of its locations. The bars where we did remotes almost nightly during the summer months are mostly gone. The outlet mall that provided a large number of clients sits mostly empty and in various states of disrepair. Even the $50/plate restaurant that catered mostly to tourists there for the lake environment didn't survive COVID. The two auto dealers, each of which dropped almost six figures annually with us, shut down during the Great Recession, though one came back as a used and pre-owned dealer. Those dealerships closing were ultimately why they let all the part-timers, myself included, go except one.

 

[michael hagerty]

I guess the goal is to figure out how to attract more young ears. It seems like stations are trying to catch some of the young audience on Facebook, Instagram and TikTok. However, it appears that many stations use Facebook only to draw listeners back to their website. I understand that this is done to make money, but does that method actually work when most posts get 1 or 2 likes (or even no interaction), when the station has over 100,000 followers? Would it better to use social media such as Facebook for fun, engagement and to basically spread the word about your station?

Going back to the radio station I used to work for, we decided to use Facebook for fun posts, some giveaways and station events, promotions, Facebook live, etc. I just checked and even though the town where the radio station is located has just over 9,000 people, the Facebook page now has 128,000 followers. In the past week, there are multiple posts that have went viral (over 15k likes) and one even reached 29k likes. Those are artist related posts. Station events/promotions will sometimes reach a few hundred to a few thousand likes, along with hundreds of comments.

The station does stream and I honestly don't think that most Facebook followers have ever listened to the station. However, I guess it’s just another tool. And even though the followers might not be in market, the local advertisers seem to like the exposure when we post something about an event, since it reaches so many people.

Are they charged extra for the social media event mentions? Because otherwise, there's all that "exposure", mostly to people who can't hear your radio station (and aren't anywhere near your advertisers), and no obvious benefit to the station for it. If it's generating more feet in the door at their business from locals, or people coming in from out of town, that's of value.

If they're impressed that there are 128,000 people who saw that they're having an event, but only 9,000 people live in the town....well, it's probably best not to do the math in front of them.

Besides being active on social media, any other ideas on how to capture young people’s ears? 🤔

Nope. So far, no one has solved that.

 

[vchimpanzee]

The station I was listening to today in the car is one of two 1000-watt AMs that both have translators and tend to use the translator frequency when describing themselves. I heard a commercial saying they need people who are not necessarily experienced to help businesses reach their goals. And there seem to be plenty of businesses advertising. One of the AMs used to have Rush Limbaugh and I believe still has syndicated talk outside of the morning show. The other played a doo-wop song a few minutes ago and while they do venture into the 80s from time to time, most of the songs are from the 60s and 70s.