Making money with internet radio... How?

[dbdigital]

Getting back to the idea of a subscription service, vsa made the point that PBS has been highly successful at using "begging" as a business model. But as we know they also offer free DVDs or CDs at certain contribution points along with discounts for tickets and meals for members.

So for a web station to survive on donations, it may be that a variation of the subscription model is needed. "Donate to my internet station and become a VIP member. Get free tickets, CDs and discounts when you join for 34.95 a year (or whatever)." It would involve, of course, having to negotiate with businesses for the giveaways, but this is how a broadcasting business develops synergy between itself and other businesses.

I'm working on something like this myself.

db

 

[Radioman100]

I mentioned what 3 mom & pop online radio stations gross. There are more than a few AM or even FM mom & pops that would love to do that. AccuRadio makes its money from ads. You haven't responded to that one yet. I haven't even gotten around to talking about the medium to large streamers out there.

Why "respond" to the AccuRadio assertions? I believe you with regard to their ad revenue. I'm just not impressed.

I've been citing all of the facts and figures while you express your opinions. Cite me some facts that traditional radio's revenues are healthy and growing. The RAB just admitted an average 7% September revenue drop from a year ago. Tell me how much HD radio broadcasters plan to earn this year and next and how they'll do it.

Not to sound like Captain Obvious, but HD Radio will make revenue from ad sales, just as terrestrial radio does. Perhaps more through sponsorship of programming blocks as the Alliance has indicated that's the way things will be done for a while. How much revenue this year? Who knows. It's still very early in the game.

I will place my posts where and when they're appropriate.

Excellent news! Just FYI though, the HD Radio board is NOT the appropriate place for posts about products that contain no HD Radio receivers.

I am not afraid of the light of day.

Again, excellent news. Good for you!

Looks like you may be regarding HD radio.

Afraid not. See, I'm not pushing a particular agenda like you are Mark. I merely see opportunity in HD Radio and very little opportunity in webcasting, particularly since it appears the RIAA effectively has internet radio by the short hairs.

You came to this board seeking answers to a question. I'm sorry I haven't been able to satisfy your demands. It appears my answers don't jive with your preconceived notions.

You don't have any "answers" Mark. You have opinons. Poorly founded ones in my opinion. No wonder you're surreptitiously trying to prop up your consultancy here.

Here's a hint. Radio as an industry has committed to HD Radio. Radio as an industry has also committed to internet radio. Your time would probably much better spent attempting to sell the powers that be on solutions that might help them moving forward in the arena that interests you without constantly telling them how dumb you think they are for supporting HD Radio. People have a tendency to shut down and ignore any insight they might otherwise glean from you when you virtually preface it with "you idiots had better listen to me."

 

[vsa]

I mentioned what 3 mom & pop online radio stations gross. There are more than a few AM or even FM mom & pops that would love to do that. AccuRadio makes its money from ads. You haven't responded to that one yet. I haven't even gotten around to talking about the medium to large streamers out there.

Why "respond" to the AccuRadio assertions? I believe you with regard to their ad revenue. I'm just not impressed.

I've been citing all of the facts and figures while you express your opinions. Cite me some facts that traditional radio's revenues are healthy and growing. The RAB just admitted an average 7% September revenue drop from a year ago. Tell me how much HD radio broadcasters plan to earn this year and next and how they'll do it.

Not to sound like Captain Obvious, but HD Radio will make revenue from ad sales, just as terrestrial radio does. Perhaps more through sponsorship of programming blocks as the Alliance has indicated that's the way things will be done for a while. How much revenue this year? Who knows. It's still very early in the game.

I will place my posts where and when they're appropriate.

Excellent news! Just FYI though, the HD Radio board is NOT the appropriate place for posts about products that contain no HD Radio receivers.

I am not afraid of the light of day.

Again, excellent news. Good for you!

Looks like you may be regarding HD radio.

Afraid not. See, I'm not pushing a particular agenda like you are Mark. I merely see opportunity in HD Radio and very little opportunity in webcasting, particularly since it appears the RIAA effectively has internet radio by the short hairs.

You came to this board seeking answers to a question. I'm sorry I haven't been able to satisfy your demands. It appears my answers don't jive with your preconceived notions.

You don't have any "answers" Mark. You have opinons. Poorly founded ones in my opinion. No wonder you're surreptitiously trying to prop up your consultancy here.

Here's a hint. Radio as an industry has committed to HD Radio. Radio as an industry has also committed to internet radio. Your time would probably much better spent attempting to sell the powers that be on solutions that might help them moving forward in the arena that interests you without constantly telling them how dumb you think they are for supporting HD Radio. People have a tendency to shut down and ignore any insight they might otherwise glean from you when you virtually preface it with "you idiots had better listen to me."

[EDIT]

And radio as an industry is in trouble - in trouble now for about 6 years with no end in sight.

Most Internet radio stations will prosper with spot sales, video gateways and other ads. Some already offer subscriptions. Ari Shohat's Digitally Imported is a successful example.



[EDIT-inflammatory]

 

[Radioman100]

[EDIT]

And radio as an industry is in trouble - in trouble now for about 6 years with no end in sight.

Most Internet radio stations will prosper with spot sales, video gateways and other ads. Some already offer subscriptions. Ari Shohat's Digitally Imported is a successful example.



[EDIT-inflammatory]

All traditional media is taking it on the chin. That has little to do with effectiveness (well, in the case of newspaper, it may have everything to do with effectiveness, but I digress.)

It has EVERYTHING to do with competition. Media buyers know "new media" generally isn't as effective as traditional media. Have you clicked on any banner ads lately? Effective? No, but it is an effective threat against an industry that's been whoring it out for a long time. Added value! God, I hate those words. Media buyers have managed to get themselves into a position of dictating very unreasonable terms and radio and TV have been foolish enough to accept them.

Regardless, web radio isn't successful, and I seriously doubt it will become more successful before the RIAA succeeds in snuffing it out. Even if they don't, thousands of rag tag, wannabees putting their favorite music on parade via the web will never attract enough of an audience to create success for itself. Success for a handful of companies that arrange for the parade (like YouTube does for home video) but not serious competition for radio.

Go ahead now. Tell me I'm in denial. With 270+ million listeners remaining, I can enjoy the rest of my career in denial and then some.

 

[Starbucks]

After reading this back and forth battle....I look at the success of Internet radio (especially for mom and pop or enthusiasts) will be given to the chosen few as successful. Terrestrial radio started in people's garages just for the thrill of sending signals to the other enthsiasts just wanting to pick up signals on their receivers. Who knew including three hobbiest that his signal would one day become a major network affilliate with a 50000 watt signal.
It's gonna be luck or some effort for a successful internet station, to make money, that's in profit. You definetly need a good website to coincide with your broadcast. How manty time site gets hits every hour or day determines the success of your station. The music attracts the listeners to your site, and hopefully they keep coming back. You get a million hits, you will get advertising in some form or another. It doesn't matter how your staion sounds, as long as it bringing the listeners over and over again.
At Shoutcast or I tunes, there has to be a few Internet stations that are making a profit. Club.977, Sky.FM, Republic of Korea..they have over 2000-3000 listeners a cume. They started out as a mom and pop or hobby station at one time. Live 365....maybe a few top TLH's are making something from donations.
But it will take some time..as it did terrestrial radio. Ansd there are some agencies looking to advertise. Audio or visual.

 

[vsa]

I mentioned what 3 mom & pop online radio stations gross. There are more than a few AM or even FM mom & pops that would love to do that. AccuRadio makes its money from ads. You haven't responded to that one yet. I haven't even gotten around to talking about the medium to large streamers out there.

Why "respond" to the AccuRadio assertions?  I believe you with regard to their ad revenue.  I'm just not impressed.   

I've been citing all of the facts and figures while you express your opinions. Cite me some facts that traditional radio's revenues are healthy and growing. The RAB just admitted an average 7% September revenue drop from a year ago. Tell me how much HD radio broadcasters plan to earn this year and next and how they'll do it.

Not to sound like Captain Obvious, but HD Radio will make revenue from ad sales, just as terrestrial radio does.  Perhaps more through sponsorship of programming blocks as the Alliance has indicated that's the way things will be done for a while.  How much revenue this year?  Who knows.  It's still very early in the game.

I will place my posts where and when they're appropriate.

Excellent news!  Just FYI though, the HD Radio board is NOT the appropriate place for posts about products that contain no HD Radio receivers.

I am not afraid of the light of day.

Again, excellent news.  Good for you!

Looks like you may be regarding HD radio.

Afraid not.  See, I'm not pushing a particular agenda like you are Mark.  I merely see opportunity in HD Radio and very little opportunity in webcasting, particularly since it appears the RIAA effectively has internet radio by the short hairs.

You came to this board seeking answers to a question. I'm sorry I haven't been able to satisfy your demands. It appears my answers don't jive with your preconceived notions.

You don't have any "answers" Mark.  You have opinons.  Poorly founded ones in my opinion.  No wonder you're surreptitiously trying to prop up your consultancy here.

Here's a hint.  Radio as an industry has committed to HD Radio.  Radio as an industry has also committed to internet radio.  Your time would probably much better spent attempting to sell the powers that be on solutions that might help them moving forward in the arena that interests you without constantly telling them how dumb you think they are for supporting HD Radio.  People have a tendency to shut down and ignore any insight they might otherwise glean from you when you virtually preface it with "you idiots had better listen to me."

Since my reply was edited, once again - why do you call me "Mark"? My name is not Mark. And I'm not a consultant.

In the event you wish to learn more about Internet radio, a good starting point besides Radio-Info can be found at Radio And Internet Newsletter. And no, my name is not Kurt either.

http://www.kurthanson.com/

 

[Radioman100]

Since my reply was edited, once again - why do you call me "Mark"? My name is not Mark. And I'm not a consultant.

I'd leave it alone dude. I'd be more than happy to point out links to undeniable similarities in your posts on this site and posts on your blog that would show everyone exactly who you are, but the moderators have pretty much weighed in with their opinion on this and don't want that to happen. The fact that you're so vehemently denying being who I think you are pretty much says it all.

If someone on an anonymous chat board were to call me "Ralph" for example, though it's not my name, I don't think I'd care in the least, and there are far worse things a guy could be called than "consultant."

 

[Radioman100]

After reading this back and forth battle....I look at the success of Internet radio (especially for mom and pop or enthusiasts) will be given to the chosen few as successful. Terrestrial radio started in people's garages just for the thrill of sending signals to the other enthsiasts just wanting to pick up signals on their receivers. Who knew including three hobbiest that his signal would one day become a major network affilliate with a 50000 watt signal.
It's gonna be luck or some effort for a successful internet station, to make money, that's in profit. You definetly need a good website to coincide with your broadcast. How manty time site gets hits every hour or day determines the success of your station. The music attracts the listeners to your site, and hopefully they keep coming back. You get a million hits, you will get advertising in some form or another. It doesn't matter how your staion sounds, as long as it bringing the listeners over and over again.
At Shoutcast or I tunes, there has to be a few Internet stations that are making a profit. Club.977, Sky.FM, Republic of Korea..they have over 2000-3000 listeners a cume. They started out as a mom and pop or hobby station at one time. Live 365....maybe a few top TLH's are making something from donations.
But it will take some time..as it did terrestrial radio. Ansd there are some agencies looking to advertise. Audio or visual.

Good points. Many of the first radio stations were effectively hobbies. They couldn't even air commercials at first as it wasn't considered kosher.

My dispute with our buddy here isn't really about whether net radio will gain traction or not, I think some internet radio stations will eventually gain some measure of success if the regulatory powers that be don't snuff them out. It's the speed with which it will happen, and to what extent. He contends it will bankrupt traditional broadcasters virtually overnight. That's just silly. I think it will take decades, if it ever happens at all. Right now there are just too many variables to really know what will happen. What we do know is despite its faults, most people still listen to terrestrial radio.

Mark likes to preach doom and gloom on the HD Radio board here, because he's in the business of selling anti-doom and gloom solutions to radio. You can read more of his opinions here: http://www.hear2.com

 

[vsa]

Since my reply was edited, once again - why do you call me "Mark"? My name is not Mark. And I'm not a consultant.

I'd leave it alone dude.  I'd be more than happy to point out links to undeniable similarities in your posts on this site and posts on your blog that would show everyone exactly who you are, but the moderators have pretty much weighed in with their opinion on this and don't want that to happen.  The fact that you're so vehemently denying being who I think you are pretty much says it all. 

If someone on an anonymous chat board were to call me "Ralph" for example, though it's not my name, I don't think I'd care in the least, and there are far worse things a guy could be called than "consultant."

I didn't know you did the speaking for the moderators here. You don't know who I am and I prefer it that way. Besides, this discussion should not be about who anybody is. It should be about the ideas being discussed.

You originally asked a question about how you could make money in Internet radio. I've tried to be helpful by talking about a few facts with which I am familiar. When people ask a serious question, they usually appreciate it when someone tries to help with a serious answer. Any more questions that I can answer? Otherwise I'll quit wasting my time and won't respond.






 

 

[Radioman100]

I didn't know you did the speaking for the moderators here. You don't know who I am and I prefer it that way. Besides, this discussion should not be about who anybody is. It should be about the ideas being discussed.

You originally asked a question about how you could make money in Internet radio. I've tried to be helpful by talking about a few facts with which I am familiar. When people ask a serious question, they usually appreciate it when someone tries to help with a serious answer. Any more questions that I can answer? Otherwise I won't respond.

I've just seen which posts the moderators have left and which ones they've deleted. It's not all that hard to read the tea leaves.

You've been anything but helpful. Personally, I don't consider most of the remarks you've made, including the inflammatory ones removed by the moderators above to be helpful.

The comments Starbucks, talkback13, FightingIrish and others made before you got involved? Yes, they were very helpful, and insightful.

As for knowing who you are, I'll leave that up to whoever cares. It's blatantly obvious to me and becomes more obvious the longer you dwell on denying it.

 

[dbdigital]

After reading this back and forth battle....I look at the success of Internet radio (especially for mom and pop or enthusiasts) will be given to the chosen few as successful. Terrestrial radio started in people's garages just for the thrill of sending signals to the other enthsiasts just wanting to pick up signals on their receivers. Who knew including three hobbiest that his signal would one day become a major network affilliate with a 50000 watt signal.
It's gonna be luck or some effort for a successful internet station, to make money, that's in profit. You definetly need a good website to coincide with your broadcast. How manty time site gets hits every hour or day determines the success of your station. The music attracts the listeners to your site, and hopefully they keep coming back. You get a million hits, you will get advertising in some form or another. It doesn't matter how your staion sounds, as long as it bringing the listeners over and over again.
At Shoutcast or I tunes, there has to be a few Internet stations that are making a profit. Club.977, Sky.FM, Republic of Korea..they have over 2000-3000 listeners a cume. They started out as a mom and pop or hobby station at one time. Live 365....maybe a few top TLH's are making something from donations.
But it will take some time..as it did terrestrial radio. Ansd there are some agencies looking to advertise. Audio or visual.

I think it will take decades, if it ever happens at all.

Mark likes to preach doom and gloom on the HD Radio board here, because he's in the business of selling anti-doom and gloom solutions to radio. You can read more of his opinions here: http://www.hear2.com

You mean you hope it's decades. But technology is moving much too rapidly for that. While I don't see terrestrial radio bottoming out overnight, I do see the radio landscape radically changing 5 to 10 years from now.

You just can't use the word "decades" and "technology" in the same sentence anymore.

As for Mark Ramsey, he is very pro terrestrial radio. What he's trying to do is get broadcasters like yourself, to get their head out of the sand and begin preparing for the changes that are sure to occur in radio broadcasting, such as establishing and growing a web presence...and not rely on a cheesy solution like HD Radio to solve the problem. Don't shoot the messenger. Besides he's not the only one who has been commenting on the precarious state terrestrial radio is in right now.

db

 

[talkback13]

Re: Making money with Internet radio... How?

We are early in the game to see any real money from streaming radio. Streaming CPMs are cheap right now due to an over abundance of supply.

Radio Stations do have a head start here to monitorize their stream. They will put more effort into creating a quality streaming product.

-- the future is very bright...

The mobile Internet will change just about everything in radio as we know it. With great change you know... great opportunity.

 

[Radioman100]

As for Mark Ramsey, he is very pro terrestrial radio. What he's trying to do is get broadcasters like yourself, to get their head out of the sand and begin preparing for the changes that are sure to occur in radio broadcasting, such as establishing and growing a web presence...and not rely on a cheesy solution like HD Radio to solve the problem. Don't shoot the messenger. Besides he's not the only one who has been commenting on the precarious state terrestrial radio is in right now.

I don't know anyone in radio that thinks HD Radio is radio's salvation. I know several that think it will be a new revenue stream, just as streaming and other web efforts are new revenue streams.

What Mark Ramsey needs to realize is his anti-HD rhetoric does him absolutely no good. The way he delivers his anti-HD rhetoric is actually hurting him. Whether he's right or not makes no difference. He is effectively telling the radio establishment that they're a bunch of fools. They don't want to hear that, so they tune him out. I know I do.

If he actually stayed focused on his true pro-internet message, he might attract a few believers.

 

[DHMRadio]

I know, i work for Depot Hill Media hence the name, and have held a job at their Headquarters in Poughquag for 3 years now. They must be making substantial money to be able to keep 25 employees full time at this location plus all the benefits, and netting 355,421 in 2006. They charge a fee for subscriptions $6.95 which give listeners the same service that rivals such as Sky.fm and Digitally Imported. As of now they have 631 subscriptions according to their website. Offers several channels that Sky.fm has, only with noticeably deeper playlists. I do have to admit that Sky 90s has more musical selection than DHM My90s. This proves that each Internet Radio provider can be profitable if the items are marketed directly. I have to admit that the Sky.fm premium service is not user friendly, as some other services are, but they make up for it with the diversity of the formats on the Premium service.

To answer the age old question. Yes its possible to make money as these 4 companies have. Is it likely to Joe Schmo? No

 

[oaktree]

...and you can't sit back staring at a monitor with your stream running, waiting for sales to fly in through the front door or checks being printed through your printer. It doesn't work that way.

You have to $ell. Something. Anything. And cheaply...with a good professional presentation. It's not about hanging a shingle out there and "build it and they will come."

Internet radio is done and successfully ... one client at a time.

It takes work and understanding. The more local the better. The more creative in getting your "name" out there, the better. Ever thought of teaming with an AM station not online with a different format than what they are running? You'd be surprised at the response. Revenue sharing ... but it can be done as a win-win.

But it takes work, knowledge and understanding of the market, the client(s) and the audience.

Good luck ... and be persistent. It won't happen overnight but it can happen. Remember: Local, Local, Local. Affordable, Affordable, Affordable. You're not competing at this point ... you're either swimming with the sharks or working with someone for a greater gain.

But sittin' there thinking that it's automagic will get you zilch.

 

[dbdigital]

...and while you're at it, research these topics for on-line advertising: impressions, click-throughs and customer action. They are the means for making money with on-line ads. You can find this info at Inc.com.

db

 

[Radioman100]

...and while you're at it, research these topics for on-line advertising: impressions, click-throughs and customer action. They are the means for making money with on-line ads. You can find this info at Inc.com.

db

It doesn't seem to me that any of those things will work for internet radio. Click-throughs? How do you "click-through" to something on a Roku Soundbridge?

How is someone supposed to "click-through" to something while listening on a laptop or smartphone connected to their car stereo? I suppose it might be technically possible, but the last thing I want is for someone to be browsing the web while driving on the same road as me.

It seems to me that to make money, internet radio has three options. Sell subscriptions, sell commercials like terrestrial radio or beg for money.

 

[oldrover]

Here's a model someone I know is starting.

He's in a major metropolitan area, and he's targeting people at work. The format is mostly talk, with some light jazz as filler, with an eye toward avoiding royalties by using only pre-1972 analog recordings or local more modern jazz bands who'll let him use their stuff. He's marketing to local restaurants, giving them airtime in exchange for gift cards, and then giving away the gift cards regularly, as an enticement to listeners.

The talk is all local stuff... mostly what's going on in the city... entertainment, celebrity stuff, very light, but still local. And (this, to me, is the key part) he's ADVERTISING his effort via a variety of means.

His goal is to get larger local sponsors once he's got his listenership up, with the ads being more 'sponsorship' oriented than the typical 60's and 30's. Again, he's shooting for the at-work upscale crowd.

Interesting stuff... but, of course, no guarantees.

 

[dbdigital]

...and while you're at it, research these topics for on-line advertising: impressions, click-throughs and customer action. They are the means for making money with on-line ads. You can find this info at Inc.com.

db

It doesn't seem to me that any of those things will work for internet radio. Click-throughs? How do you "click-through" to something on a Roku Soundbridge?

How is someone supposed to "click-through" to something while listening on a laptop or smartphone connected to their car stereo? I suppose it might be technically possible, but the last thing I want is for someone to be browsing the web while driving on the same road as me.

It seems to me that to make money, internet radio has three options. Sell subscriptions, sell commercials like terrestrial radio or beg for money.

Of course, we're talking online ads here and it's all very common stuff. You can put it down, but your brethern over at Clear Channel are doing just this with their radio station websites. Check some of their sites out, you'll see. And I don't see any of them refusing to sell web advertising because their broadcasting over the air. What they are doing is encouraging listeners to visit their websites and offering incentives to do so.

Jeez, where is your sense of salesmanship?

db

 

[talkback13]

Re: Making money with Internet radio... How?

Internet stations will have no sales department. There will be no old school selling. Selling will happen on a computer auction system -- allowing 1000s of buyers to bid for gimps (gross impressions). CPMs will rise and fall on buyer demand and station supply. There will be no spot rates only CPMs. Spots (audio ads) will be inserted by computer onto the stream.

Ultimately the Internet stations only job will be to program.