Typically in a good deal of markets a News/Talk or all news station is one of the most or the most listened to station. However I've noticed a couple markets where this is not true. Birmingham is one of these, where both news/talk stations pull in a 1.6 and 1.5 respectively. What are other markets, and can any one explain why?
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Markets where News/Talk stations underperform
- Thread starter dustintv
- Start date
Charleston, S.C. is another underperformer, and many of the underperforming markets are in the South. On the other hand, there's no place more Republican than Utah, and conservative talk's ratings remain strong in Salt Lake City. I offer a few alternative explanations for talk's low ratings in many southern markets:
1. Signal, signal, signal. Many Southern markets only began to grow after World War Two, when the best AM facilities had already been handed out. People moved to FM even sooner than they did in the rest of the country, thanks to those booming Class C 100 kWers. Some of the first markets to try political talk on FM were in the South (Charleston, Panama City, Supertalk Mississippi) but often on second-tier FMs. On the other hand, WSB scoops up huge shares in ATL with that 50 K Class A signal pouring out of the shopping mall parking lot.
2. Culture. Yes the South is largely conservative, but it doesn't share the culture of easy argumentation found in the Northeast. Two guys at the bar can argue about politics in Buffalo or Hartford and it usually won't come to violence. That same argument in Greenville, South Carolina is likely to come up against a more quick-tempered culture that is more likely to see loud, boisterous voices as an insult to honor and a reason to fight. Medium-sized Southern markets have historically been leaders in violent crime on a per-capita basis. Arguing about politics, even in the cocoonish environment of talk radio where "your" side usually wins, actually concedes that there is another side to an issue, a concession the South has historically not been willing to make about much of anything.
Southern "politeness" is a way to avoid those hair-trigger tempers and thus there's less of a natural constituency for confrontational radio, even if it agrees with one's viewpoints. Other than Dave Ramsey, whose show has a political undertone but isn't purely political, you can't name a major syndicated host who comes from the South and grew up in a Southern cultural milieu. Rush Limbaugh from Cape Girardeau is about as far down the map as you can go. Neal Boortz went to high school in Pensacola but was basically a military brat with no strong ties to any one region.
3. African-American populations that make up large portions of many deep South markets have no use for conservative talk radio.
1. Signal, signal, signal. Many Southern markets only began to grow after World War Two, when the best AM facilities had already been handed out. People moved to FM even sooner than they did in the rest of the country, thanks to those booming Class C 100 kWers. Some of the first markets to try political talk on FM were in the South (Charleston, Panama City, Supertalk Mississippi) but often on second-tier FMs. On the other hand, WSB scoops up huge shares in ATL with that 50 K Class A signal pouring out of the shopping mall parking lot.
2. Culture. Yes the South is largely conservative, but it doesn't share the culture of easy argumentation found in the Northeast. Two guys at the bar can argue about politics in Buffalo or Hartford and it usually won't come to violence. That same argument in Greenville, South Carolina is likely to come up against a more quick-tempered culture that is more likely to see loud, boisterous voices as an insult to honor and a reason to fight. Medium-sized Southern markets have historically been leaders in violent crime on a per-capita basis. Arguing about politics, even in the cocoonish environment of talk radio where "your" side usually wins, actually concedes that there is another side to an issue, a concession the South has historically not been willing to make about much of anything.
Southern "politeness" is a way to avoid those hair-trigger tempers and thus there's less of a natural constituency for confrontational radio, even if it agrees with one's viewpoints. Other than Dave Ramsey, whose show has a political undertone but isn't purely political, you can't name a major syndicated host who comes from the South and grew up in a Southern cultural milieu. Rush Limbaugh from Cape Girardeau is about as far down the map as you can go. Neal Boortz went to high school in Pensacola but was basically a military brat with no strong ties to any one region.
3. African-American populations that make up large portions of many deep South markets have no use for conservative talk radio.
In Miami the only talk station with a great deal of listenership is a Spanish station, WAQI. And its audience is way, way, way up there in age. The biggest English speaking talk station is WIOD which always comes in something like 14th or 15th place. The other talk stations are all under a 2 share.
T
TVC1500
Guest
Smedge: Are you a cultural anthropologist or a programmer? I am not saying your perspective
is totally flawed, but it has some major holes in it. This may be true in 100+ markets located
in the south, but from my experience in the large and medium markets N/T and pure Talk
formats work are very viable in the South. It's all about facility, targeting, and promotion,
and talent. Look into the Birmingham situation a little deeper, I walked away from that dog
when approached years ago.
is totally flawed, but it has some major holes in it. This may be true in 100+ markets located
in the south, but from my experience in the large and medium markets N/T and pure Talk
formats work are very viable in the South. It's all about facility, targeting, and promotion,
and talent. Look into the Birmingham situation a little deeper, I walked away from that dog
when approached years ago.
Interesting insights and I wondered if it was a southern phenomenon too, but then consider these stations:
WSB Atlanta
WBT Charlotte
WWL New Orleans
WOKV Jacksonville
WHAS Louisville
WFLA Tampa
WDBO Orlando
WRVA Richmond
WBAP Dallas
WOAI San Antonio
So I have to wonder if TVC1500 might be on to something in addition to a possible cultural thing. I mean people are obviously listening. In addition, although it appears the posts have now been deleted, I don't believe the argument that stations don't do well when conservatives predominate because of the numerous counter examples.
WSB Atlanta
WBT Charlotte
WWL New Orleans
WOKV Jacksonville
WHAS Louisville
WFLA Tampa
WDBO Orlando
WRVA Richmond
WBAP Dallas
WOAI San Antonio
So I have to wonder if TVC1500 might be on to something in addition to a possible cultural thing. I mean people are obviously listening. In addition, although it appears the posts have now been deleted, I don't believe the argument that stations don't do well when conservatives predominate because of the numerous counter examples.
WSB Atlanta -- signal and heritage plus stumbles by 'competition'
WBT Charlotte -- signal and heritage
WWL New Orleans -- signal and heritage plus Katrina creating a desire for local talk over syndication plus move to FM; plus New Orleans is different from the rest of the South not to mention the rest of the country
WOKV Jacksonville adding FM plus Jaguars plus no real competition in 15 years
WHAS Louisville signal and heritage
WFLA Tampa remnants of a once-great heritage -- this is after the station where Chuck Harder, Lassiter, Lionel, Jay Marvin, Harrison, and others made their mark -- plus ownership deals that prevented any real competition on the local AM band
WDBO Orlando heritage plus a continuing commitment to local news by Cox
WRVA Richmond signal and heritage plus lack of a competitor
WBAP Dallassignal and heritage
Most Southern markets do not have heritage 50 kW stations that go out for a hundred miles. The closest thing to a heritage AM in Greensboro is WSJS and they need another signal to cover the eastern part of their own market. Coastal North Carolina has been almost denuded of viable AM's east of Raleigh.
WOAI San Antoniosignal and heritage
Plus in the case of WSB, WDBO, WFLA and WBAP -- most of their metro area listeners are Northern transplants.
WBT Charlotte -- signal and heritage
WWL New Orleans -- signal and heritage plus Katrina creating a desire for local talk over syndication plus move to FM; plus New Orleans is different from the rest of the South not to mention the rest of the country
WOKV Jacksonville adding FM plus Jaguars plus no real competition in 15 years
WHAS Louisville signal and heritage
WFLA Tampa remnants of a once-great heritage -- this is after the station where Chuck Harder, Lassiter, Lionel, Jay Marvin, Harrison, and others made their mark -- plus ownership deals that prevented any real competition on the local AM band
WDBO Orlando heritage plus a continuing commitment to local news by Cox
WRVA Richmond signal and heritage plus lack of a competitor
WBAP Dallassignal and heritage
Most Southern markets do not have heritage 50 kW stations that go out for a hundred miles. The closest thing to a heritage AM in Greensboro is WSJS and they need another signal to cover the eastern part of their own market. Coastal North Carolina has been almost denuded of viable AM's east of Raleigh.
WOAI San Antoniosignal and heritage
Plus in the case of WSB, WDBO, WFLA and WBAP -- most of their metro area listeners are Northern transplants.
Philly hasn't had a strong talk station since the demise of WWDB. WPHT, for various reasons, has never really hit a groove.
jimwalsh2001 said:
It's interesting because I often hear people rave what a great market that city has, only for those same people to end up bashing on the talk stations. I hear mixed things about Philadelphia's probably most famous host Michael Smerconish, while others complain about the poor signal that station has.
Same goes for Boston and WRKO too. People are quick to praise WBZ(and rightfully so) and others yet WRKO, which carries Limbaugh and Howie Carr, seems to be quite faulty for a lot of people.
Smedge makes good points about all those stations I had listed earlier. The Atlanta situation is also interesting as WGST, which carries Limbaugh and Beck and is where Hannity got his start has horrific ratings due to a poor signal from what I understand.
The problem with 'PHT is that the operation is run totally by and for the sales department; the last couple of PDs have been figureheads (I'm not saying they were incompetent; I'm saying they had little if any input in the day-to-day operations).
Things will hopefully change in the future with Dan Mason at the company helm... ;D
Things will hopefully change in the future with Dan Mason at the company helm... ;D
T
The Beave
Guest
Rapid City, Doesn't have a single station doing Live Talk, But has alot of public/religious stations.
M
mred
Guest
In Vegas, KXNT and Kdwn are low compared to other markets, I think it';s because of bad management and cheap talent.
As for KDWN/KXNT, their poor performance is due to the fact that AM radio is barely a rumor in Las Vegas.
Also, I wouldn't call WBAP a huge entity. It get shares similar to KFI/LA, yet, unlike KFI, has no real national significance, no big names, and nothing special going for it. There are no waves coming from WBAP. And when you consider that LA is 3/4 ethnic and largely non-English speaking, and that WBAP has competition not that far behind it, I'd say WBAP is hardly a big deal. Is talk radio a big deal in DFW? Maybe, if you add all the talk stations up. In reality, I'd just say that major markets attract a lot of talk stations, and that because there are smaller ethnic audiences there than there are in NYC (Russian, Chinese, etc. stations), LA (Chinese, Farsi, Filipino, etc. stations), Chicago (Polish stations), Houston (Asian stations), Philadelphia (multi-language stations), etc., the AM band is more open for more crap-ola talk formats.
Also, I wouldn't call WBAP a huge entity. It get shares similar to KFI/LA, yet, unlike KFI, has no real national significance, no big names, and nothing special going for it. There are no waves coming from WBAP. And when you consider that LA is 3/4 ethnic and largely non-English speaking, and that WBAP has competition not that far behind it, I'd say WBAP is hardly a big deal. Is talk radio a big deal in DFW? Maybe, if you add all the talk stations up. In reality, I'd just say that major markets attract a lot of talk stations, and that because there are smaller ethnic audiences there than there are in NYC (Russian, Chinese, etc. stations), LA (Chinese, Farsi, Filipino, etc. stations), Chicago (Polish stations), Houston (Asian stations), Philadelphia (multi-language stations), etc., the AM band is more open for more crap-ola talk formats.
KJCB said:
WBAP is the flagship for the Midnight Trucking Radio Network (the successor to Bill Mack's country music show) - which has since become a standard issues/political talk show when they brought Gary McNamara aboard as co-host. It is syndicated by Jones, to a decent affiliate base.
And still, MTRN is a pea-shooter when compared to C2C...
-nate81 aka Myron-
dustintv said:
WSB's Boortz and Clark Howard consistantly beat Beck and Rush. By very wide margins. And Hannity is on a one-hour delay on WSB, but his ratings are so massive that the station is one of Sean's strongest affiliates.
WGST has now been reduced to an almost all-syndicated lineup after firing ALL of their local talk hosts last year. The day signal is good, but the night is so nasocent that it can't be picked up outside of the city... and Atlanta's a pretty damn big city, mind you.
-Myron aka nate81-
Charleston, with only two, perhaps three good AMs covering the whole market at night, has always been a bad AM market.
Think of it, in the late 1980s, before Hurricane Hugo hit, WTMA was a classic country station running off satellite, almost going into bankruptcy, the heritage 1390 WCSC, a leader for over 55 years, was stuck with an automated oldies format, WOKE was still running the same features and the same stuff that they had been doing since the 1960s, and WQSN 1450 was simulcasting 94.3's top 40 and oldies formats. Just before Hugo, TMA went talk, and Charleston was a greater market because of it.
WSCC is the worst now, as their local shows are the local country station's morning show, usually with taped bits, and a one-hour local news show at 6am.
When they started, they were a good talk station, with Richard Todd (now on 1250), Ray Steele (sp) (now at Cumulus Savannah), local high school football games, simulcasted WCSC (5)'s weather coverage during Hurricane Floyd, and both WSC and WTMA had large news staffs.
They also had Greg Alan, and Casey Bartholomew, but when Schnitt came around, the whole station went down into what it is now.
WTMA was far down after Rush and Dr. Laura left, stuck with Andy Thomas (has been around SC for many years, just fired from WQSC in Charleston), Ken Hamblin, and Moon in the Morning keeping the station afloat.
It is an exciting market, as hundreds of people have gotten their starts there, but with so many FMs coming into town in the last 30 years (when it was originally just 93.5 (now 93.3), 95.1, 96.9, 102.5, 103.5, and 107.5), it is a fragmented market.
Think of it, in the late 1980s, before Hurricane Hugo hit, WTMA was a classic country station running off satellite, almost going into bankruptcy, the heritage 1390 WCSC, a leader for over 55 years, was stuck with an automated oldies format, WOKE was still running the same features and the same stuff that they had been doing since the 1960s, and WQSN 1450 was simulcasting 94.3's top 40 and oldies formats. Just before Hugo, TMA went talk, and Charleston was a greater market because of it.
WSCC is the worst now, as their local shows are the local country station's morning show, usually with taped bits, and a one-hour local news show at 6am.
When they started, they were a good talk station, with Richard Todd (now on 1250), Ray Steele (sp) (now at Cumulus Savannah), local high school football games, simulcasted WCSC (5)'s weather coverage during Hurricane Floyd, and both WSC and WTMA had large news staffs.
They also had Greg Alan, and Casey Bartholomew, but when Schnitt came around, the whole station went down into what it is now.
WTMA was far down after Rush and Dr. Laura left, stuck with Andy Thomas (has been around SC for many years, just fired from WQSC in Charleston), Ken Hamblin, and Moon in the Morning keeping the station afloat.
It is an exciting market, as hundreds of people have gotten their starts there, but with so many FMs coming into town in the last 30 years (when it was originally just 93.5 (now 93.3), 95.1, 96.9, 102.5, 103.5, and 107.5), it is a fragmented market.
The Beave said:
I'm not really sure where you're coming from because Rapid City has two talk stations: KOTA and KTOQ. KOTA is the #1 station in the market.
charlestondxman said:
Every market in Florida has lousy AM signals, for the same reason Charleston does -- growth started too late. Yet the Florida markets -- even as small as Sarasota and West Palm Beach -- had strong news-talkers beginning in the 1970's. I think there's another explanation -- cultural. Seems like every time I drove through Charleston, the local talkers were raising hell about the Confederate flag. Not a good idea in a market with a lot of transplants.
charlestondxman said:
WSCC is on FM now, so what's their excuse?
WSCC has a 3-hour morning show. The afternoon show is not local; it is hosted by Schnitt, who is actually does a CHR, not country, morning show in Tampa.
Slant said:
It's a major market with a decent ethnic population. By that standard, you could put WABC in the same category, since WOR isn't really competition.
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