Markets With A 50s/60s Oldies Station

[K.M. Richards]

I do have to wonder how much revenue a syndicated talk program on WABC in Brucie's timeslot would actually bring in... My guess is not a ton. A lot of stations seem to run "best of" from weekday syndicated programs then. Sure, Brucie's show isn't cheap to produce... but I doubt it's all that different profit-wise from the generic syndicated talk program that would be on most 50kw blowtorches that time of the night.

I boldfaced the part where you hit the nail on the head. A syndicated talk program, or even a "best of", has a production cost of zero to WABC.

Consider the fact that they have to maintain their ASCAP/BMI/SESAC/GMR licenses just for those weekend programs, and those are always based on a percentage of station revenue. Unless -- and I have my doubts -- those are only based on the revenue from music-based time periods, it's still going to be a big expense for John C.

 

[AMRadioGuy]

I boldfaced the part where you hit the nail on the head. A syndicated talk program, or even a "best of", has a production cost of zero to WABC.

Consider the fact that they have to maintain their ASCAP/BMI/SESAC/GMR licenses just for those weekend programs, and those are always based on a percentage of station revenue. Unless -- and I have my doubts -- those are only based on the revenue from music-based time periods, it's still going to be a big expense for John C.

This is definitely true!

The broader point I was trying to make is that even if a syndicated program doesn't have any production cost, are they selling any airtime with it? Because if that airtime is a wash... and Brucie gets sponsored by Goya and even though his program is more expensive to produce, it's also a wash... why not do something interesting?

 

[Fighting Irish]

Probably true, if you only look at 12+ numbers (or as you correctly state, "overall"), which have proven to be meaningless in terms of determining the actual viability of a station. (The only reason Nielsen gives those away for free is because they know the numbers are worthless to the industry so they use them to keep their name visible to potential diarykeepers.)

If, however, the demographic breakouts show the audience is entirely 55+ (or overwhelming so), there's no ad sales potential. In that case, it does not matter how "popular" the music is or how involved in the community a station and its air talent are. They are still only attracting listeners that are of no use in terms of improving revenue.

Locally-owned isn't the saving grace it used to be, either. I have been seeing more and more "mom and pop" stations either sell out or go silent in recent years. Which makes sense, because they are going to have the shallowest pockets and be more dependent on ad revenue.

We all know the 12+ numbers don't mean much. No need to talk down. I used it merely as a frame of reference, not to attract snotty know-it-all retorts. Obviously, most of us aren't privy to the demo breakdowns, so it is what it is.

WVCO does not run any agency or network ads. It's all local buys from local businesses. They also do remotes, live club shows and promotional events with sponsors. I doubt the airstaff makes a lot of money, as they have side hustles (one is in a local band and others have worked DJing in the clubs and mobile gigs). I'm sure the station owners have found other ways to bring in revenue too.

As for the whole demographic thing, the Grand Strand area skews older. Radio as a whole also skews older. So yeah, it's a somewhat harder hustle to get sponsors, but that's the pond they fish from. It takes a little more effort. And they've been doing it for over two decades, so they figured out how to make it work. More power to 'em.

 

[davideduardo]

If, however, the demographic breakouts show the audience is entirely 55+ (or overwhelming so), there's no ad sales potential. In that case, it does not matter how "popular" the music is or how involved in the community a station and its air talent are. They are still only attracting listeners that are of no use in terms of improving revenue.

There is a caveat here: the owner has lots of NYC connections, particularly among vendors to his supermarkets. And quite a few would consider it to be "good PR" to advertise on WABC.

Locally-owned isn't the saving grace it used to be, either. I have been seeing more and more "mom and pop" stations either sell out or go silent in recent years. Which makes sense, because they are going to have the shallowest pockets and be more dependent on ad revenue.

I'd say that this is a different case. The owner is very involved with NYC and has more local contacts than I have old magazines.

 

[davideduardo]

I boldfaced the part where you hit the nail on the head. A syndicated talk program, or even a "best of", has a production cost of zero to WABC.

Consider the fact that they have to maintain their ASCAP/BMI/SESAC/GMR licenses just for those weekend programs, and those are always based on a percentage of station revenue. Unless -- and I have my doubts -- those are only based on the revenue from music-based time periods, it's still going to be a big expense for John C.

They still have to have music licenses to cover music used as bumpers and in commercials. I believe those license allow for limited music programming... but it is so long ago that I worked on those that I will defer to someone / anyone who actually knows how talk stations deal with licensing today.

 

[K.M. Richards]

There is a caveat here: the owner has lots of NYC connections, particularly among vendors to his supermarkets. And quite a few would consider it to be "good PR" to advertise on WABC.

I'd say that this is a different case. The owner is very involved with NYC and has more local contacts than I have old magazines.

David, with all due respect, you answered my replies about the North Myrtle Beach station as if I were still talking about WABC.

 

[K.M. Richards]

As for the whole demographic thing, the Grand Strand area skews older. Radio as a whole also skews older. So yeah, it's a somewhat harder hustle to get sponsors, but that's the pond they fish from. It takes a little more effort. And they've been doing it for over two decades, so they figured out how to make it work. More power to 'em.

If they can still pay the bills, more power to them. I'm simply saying that it's a dying format, regardless of what one station in Florida is doing.

You are correct in your statement about radio as a whole skewing older. That's the root of my point; with the exception of a very few markets where the population is overwhelmingly 55+ and there are locally-owned businesses still willing to ante up for advertising, the Oldies format is rapidly becoming akin to the old "pushing a rope uphill" adage.

 

[AMRadioGuy]

If they can still pay the bills, more power to them. I'm simply saying that it's a dying format, regardless of what one station in Florida is doing.

You are correct in your statement about radio as a whole skewing older. That's the root of my point; with the exception of a very few markets where the population is overwhelmingly 55+ and there are locally-owned businesses still willing to ante up for advertising, the Oldies format is rapidly becoming akin to the old "pushing a rope uphill" adage.

Well yeah, but radio as a whole is becoming akin to the old "pushing a rope uphill" adage. Sure, oldies folks are aging. But the radio audience in general is. Especially on AM, but on FM too...

 

[AMRadioGuy]

They still have to have music licenses to cover music used as bumpers and in commercials. I believe those license allow for limited music programming... but it is so long ago that I worked on those that I will defer to someone / anyone who actually knows how talk stations deal with licensing today.

I'm also quite curious about how exactly this works. I've read several different things here on this forum in this regard.

And what about when Jim Bohannon had Tony Orlando on his talk show and played some of Tony's records in full? I'm sure that's not the only time that happened. I've heard entire songs played on predominately talk stations from time to time.

Or what about when talk stations do specialty programming for the 4th? In Pittsburgh, for example, 1020 KDKA has done a music thing synched with fireworks several years. And they have special music programming Christmas Day, too... What's the deal here? I don't mean to threadcrap, but I think it's actually relevant as there are quite a few stations (especially AM) that are primarily talk but still do 50s/60s oldies specialty shows on Saturdays. Do they pay royalties as if they were a primarily music station?

And what about full service stations? If you carry baseball, for example, I think over 1/10th of your annual airtime is going to be baseball... Add in hockey and football and probably nearly a quarter of your airtime is sports... It'd be strange for a station airing all of that other stuff to be paying full monte for music...

My recollection is that you submit a sample log of a week or two to the licensing agencies and they do a calculation based on how much airtime is music and that goes into a calculation to determine how much to charge based on a percentage of revenue. Yes, that's kind of murky, but it's what I recollect the owner of a station I've worked for explaining to me. This was a few years ago, though, so my memory (and he) might be wrong...

 

[K.M. Richards]

My recollection is that you submit a sample log of a week or two to the licensing agencies and they do a calculation based on how much airtime is music and that goes into a calculation to determine how much to charge based on a percentage of revenue. Yes, that's kind of murky, but it's what I recollect the owner of a station I've worked for explaining to me. This was a few years ago, though, so my memory (and he) might be wrong...

I haven't seen a music log in years. While I don't have any responsibility for that (as a consultant, I am not considered to be a station employee, even if I am programming it remotely) my suspicion is that ASCAP/BMI/SESAC/GMR are monitoring streams instead and using music-recognition software to identify the song/artist. They can easily identify the publisher from that.

 

[AMRadioGuy]

I haven't seen a music log in years. While I don't have any responsibility for that (as a consultant, I am not considered to be a station employee, even if I am programming it remotely) my suspicion is that ASCAP/BMI/SESAC/GMR are monitoring streams instead and using music-recognition software to identify the song/artist. They can easily identify the publisher from that.

There is that, too. That's how the licensing fees are paid for streaming - music recognition software, I do believe...

This was just a couple of years ago, and the station owner was submitting logs (digital logs). Perhaps things have changed since then.

The companies may be monitoring streams, though there are quite a few stations near me that still have no stream and have websites with pretty much only a link to their FCC file...

 

[davideduardo]

And what about when Jim Bohannon had Tony Orlando on his talk show and played some of Tony's records in full? I'm sure that's not the only time that happened. I've heard entire songs played on predominately talk stations from time to time.

Talk stations have to pay a blanket license that included licensed songs used in commercials, bumpers, intros and occasional music segments that don't exceed a certain amount of time.

Or what about when talk stations do specialty programming for the 4th? In Pittsburgh, for example, 1020 KDKA has done a music thing synched with fireworks several years. And they have special music programming Christmas Day, too... What's the deal here? I don't mean to threadcrap, but I think it's actually relevant as there are quite a few stations (especially AM) that are primarily talk but still do 50s/60s oldies specialty shows on Saturdays. Do they pay royalties as if they were a primarily music station?

No, they have the "predominantly talk station" license. The bigger issue is in the area of music used in commercials, jingles using covered music (like the TV ads that modify an "oldie" to make a jingle).

And what about full service stations? If you carry baseball, for example, I think over 1/10th of your annual airtime is going to be baseball... Add in hockey and football and probably nearly a quarter of your airtime is sports... It'd be strange for a station airing all of that other stuff to be paying full monte for music...

It you are mostly music, you pay the license to play a lot of music. And, again, those ads and bumpers are licensed music, too.

My recollection is that you submit a sample log of a week or two to the licensing agencies and they do a calculation based on how much airtime is music and that goes into a calculation to determine how much to charge based on a percentage of revenue. Yes, that's kind of murky, but it's what I recollect the owner of a station I've worked for explaining to me. This was a few years ago, though, so my memory (and he) might be wrong...

The log, now done electronically by a monitoring service, is used to determine how much money each composer gets, not to calculate the charge each station plays.

 

[davideduardo]

I haven't seen a music log in years. While I don't have any responsibility for that (as a consultant, I am not considered to be a station employee, even if I am programming it remotely) my suspicion is that ASCAP/BMI/SESAC/GMR are monitoring streams instead and using music-recognition software to identify the song/artist. They can easily identify the publisher from that.

Yeah, the composer/author firms either buy a service or do some other music monitoring.

 

[PTBoardOp93]

I'm also quite curious about how exactly this works. I've read several different things here on this forum in this regard.

The rules aren't necessarily the same for each of the four PROs, and they are renegotiated every 5 years.

The basic story is that radio stations which air a talk format, but wish the ability to use "incidental music", can buy that license with a discount of approximately 75% from what a music station pays.

No, they have the "predominantly talk station" license. The bigger issue is in the area of music used in commercials, jingles using covered music (like the TV ads that modify an "oldie" to make a jingle).

Popular music used in commercial material is not covered under any of the standard blanket licenses. If Toyota wishes to use a popular song in their ad, their agency must buy that right separately.

 

[davideduardo]

Popular music used in commercial material is not covered under any of the standard blanket licenses. If Toyota wishes to use a popular song in their ad, their agency must buy that right separately.

I am talking also about music used as bumpers and in local commercial production.

 

[AMRadioGuy]

Talk stations have to pay a blanket license that included licensed songs used in commercials, bumpers, intros and occasional music segments that don't exceed a certain amount of time.

No, they have the "predominantly talk station" license. The bigger issue is in the area of music used in commercials, jingles using covered music (like the TV ads that modify an "oldie" to make a jingle).

It you are mostly music, you pay the license to play a lot of music. And, again, those ads and bumpers are licensed music, too.

The log, now done electronically by a monitoring service, is used to determine how much money each composer gets, not to calculate the charge each station plays.

Ahh - thanks for all of the clarification, David!

 

[radiofan2023]

I am talking also about music used as bumpers and in local commercial production.

Are there many royalty-free production libraries or not much?

 

[davideduardo]

Are there many royalty-free production libraries or not much?

There are libraries. But many stations use pieces of label-released songs, often editing the instrumental bridge, the chorus, a line or verse or otherwise using just a piece.

 

[CTListener]

There are libraries. But many stations use pieces of label-released songs, often editing the instrumental bridge, the chorus, a line or verse or otherwise using just a piece.

You hear those on sports teams' radio networks, coming back from a break. Frequently the music doesn't get potted down in time and the first few words the announcer says are lost.

 

[vchimpanzee]

WVCO does not run any agency or network ads. It's all local buys from local businesses. They also do remotes, live club shows and promotional events with sponsors. I doubt the airstaff makes a lot of money, as they have side hustles (one is in a local band and others have worked DJing in the clubs and mobile gigs).

When morning host Jim Morgan was let go from WEZV, at the time it switched to soft AC from what was essentially adult standards with very few actual standards, he said on Facebook that he would get paid out of whatever ad time he could sell. Now that was a condition of getting the job, but things may have changed since then.