Dang never thought about that one specifically about parts of Maui leading up to the fires and also a hurricane near Maui when the fires started. Never thought a hurricane in Hawaii can produce winds to escalate a wildfire similar to the Santa Ana Winds that get blamed for escalating wildfires in California.
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Maui fires & cell phone service failed
- Thread starter alok
- Start date
Yep, it is complicated and most of the causal events have nothing to do with global warming. A key element seems to be the non-native and flammable vegetation.
This is a very unusual situation. Hurricanes and monsoon storms are quite common for the islands. What isn't common, is the high winds from a hurricane many miles away that doesn't include rainfall during a particularly hot and dry year.
Having a place in Hawaii myself, I guarantee that the last thing residents and local officials find themselves concerned about, are the potential for grass fires sweeping in and burning down an entire community in a matter of hours. As I mentioned, these aren't large cities with paid emergency services. Many of the fire stations use volunteers.
I get it; radio nerds on a discussion board are looking for justification or some narrative where radio is saving the day when power and cell sites for the entire town go down, would have somehow helped in this situation. People don't carry portable radios, and hustling your family into a vehicle trying to escape with flames, smoke, and darkness all around you in a matter of minutes, the last thing anyone is thinking about is searching the radio for information. It's self preservation at that point. It seems like many residents when faced with normal ways out blocked by fire and burning buildings, drove down to the pier and were forced to abandon their car and jump into the ocean. Who gives a sh*t about what's on the radio at that point?
That said, none of us were there, and as David said; unless one has lived on an island and have faced natural disasters like this, the speculation, finger pointing, and commentary like they know something the occupants didn't know, isn't helpful.
The added fuel in the form of the vegetation is one factor. But to dismiss climate change and the impact on storm tracks and intensity and drought conditions is to miss part of the total picture. All of the components need to be studied in the analysis moving forward.
The sirens are an issue. Would it have helped? Maybe. But the speed and ferocity would have made the sirens perhaps only of limited use. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have been deployed. Perhaps a bigger question is why, with warning of the conditions ahead of time, the power utility did not cut the electricity. It’s a drastic step, but warranted. They knew from last case studies it could be deployed, but did not make it part of their risk mitigation.
Nothing, not radio, not cell phones, was going to help people trapped in those cars unable to get anywhere. There were no routes radio was going to relay.
The sirens are an issue. Would it have helped? Maybe. But the speed and ferocity would have made the sirens perhaps only of limited use. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have been deployed. Perhaps a bigger question is why, with warning of the conditions ahead of time, the power utility did not cut the electricity. It’s a drastic step, but warranted. They knew from last case studies it could be deployed, but did not make it part of their risk mitigation.
Nothing, not radio, not cell phones, was going to help people trapped in those cars unable to get anywhere. There were no routes radio was going to relay.
Just saw an interview on Face The Nation with a congresswoman who's district included the affected areas. The siren topic came up. The Congresswoman said the sirens are intended for tsunami alerts, not for brush fires. Most of the tsunami evacuation routes were completely overrun by fires. Sounding sirens to have people go to evacuation zones would have sent a bunch of residents to their death with no way of turning around.
You make a valid point, but why have sirens then? Some people will panic no matter what, but an alert system is only useful if it's used. The geography of where the town is located makes escape problematic in this situation.
The Earth is literally on fire at this point. Homeless people are roasting to death on sidewalks. These extreme weather events are becoming the norm and unfortunately no warning system will prevent them...
Because as I mentioned; there is a much higher probability of a tsunami than a brush fire. They're on an island after all, not Southern California with Santa Anna winds. Residents and businesses are trained to head for the higher ground areas via a predetermined evacuation route when the sirens sound. In this case, those routes were all overrun with fire. Being two lane roads, cars would have quickly become trapped with other cars all following the same routes,
That's a good point actually. With the chances of forest and wildfires increasing due to climate change, I suspect we're all in store for more of these unusual situations.
Yes, some people would have headed right into the fire. There's no good outcome in this case, but a siren still might have helped a few. When that Miami condo collapsed a few years ago, nobody inside got a warning that they were about to die. I guess it's a matter of preference if some warning is better than none...
For many, the only way "out" was what they did: into the ocean. Would everyone have the presence of mind to do that in a split second even if the path was viable? Doubtful. And it's not like Lahaina has a beach to begin with--it's a harbor town, so you're not wading into the ocean, you're jumping in from whatever edge you can find--dock, wall, what have you.
The final analysis is likely to show many contributing factors, some of which could and perhaps should have been addressed long ago and some that were "in the moment" misses that may serve as learnings for the future, and some things well beyond the control of any individual agency or entity.
The final analysis is likely to show many contributing factors, some of which could and perhaps should have been addressed long ago and some that were "in the moment" misses that may serve as learnings for the future, and some things well beyond the control of any individual agency or entity.
You're right, it starts with white folks introducing grasses and other invasive plant life to the islands. That includes grasses that grow wild and burn fast when dry. Then it gets uglier when some careless motorist tosses a cigarette but out their car window into the grass on a dry windy day.
This is also unique because it is an island community. That inherently means limited road access. California has built housing in areas that probably should have never been developed. They are now very vulnerable to fires, flooding, landslides, etc. Some Floridians cannot get insurance anymore because they are in the hurricane hot zone. New Orleans needs levees and the list goes on.
The risk of building in "Paradise" is getting more problematic with Climate Change. Unfortunately, there are no easy answers because these extreme weather events are happening everywhere...
Studied, but objectively. From the data I have looked at... and as Kelly has mentioned, hurricanes or monsoons are common. There are dry years and wet ones, part of the normal cycle from Niño to Niña periods. What you don't have often is a monsoon in a dry year combined with non-native grasses and plants that did not live in Hawai'i previously.
There are a lot of "what if" questions, but the sirens could have alerted people with enough time to get out of their homes or hotels. Was the utility prepared and its staff trained to cut power in such a case, or is this such a rare combination of circumstances that it "could never happen"?
Do we know that? I see comments that an extra half hour to hour of notice would have allowed cars to take the southeastern shoreline road or roads away from the fire. But I have never been there and just don't know enough to venture an opinion.
I've been to Lahaina a few times, and even stayed at the historic Pioneer Inn and sat under the banyan tree which was planed in 1873 and was supposedly the largest in the US. The Pioneer Inn is lost; the tree was damaged but work is underway to try and save it. That said, I was last there more than 10 years ago, it was during "normal" times and we were taxied about so I don't remember much about the routes in and out or an evacuation system.
What I do hope and trust will happen, is that once the recovery, cleanup and even rebuilding efforts begin, they'll do an objective deep dive in to what went wrong, yes, but more importantly, what could be improved upon and what could be done better in the future to potentially save property, but most importantly, prevent the deaths of the 93 people that have been counted to date. While disasters of all kinds are horrible and tragic, every effort should be taken to ensure the "lessons learned" are used to prevent or greatly mitigate loss of property and life should something similar happen in the future. Past hurricanes and earthquakes have caused building design and codes to be greatly improved. Airline tragedies have resulted in much safer flight in many respects. Fire codes have been created, strengthened and enforced - including building materials and construction, alarm and suppression systems - to reduce loss after past incidents were studied. This should be no different - And of course, the information should be shared so other regions might benefit from it as well.
What I do hope and trust will happen, is that once the recovery, cleanup and even rebuilding efforts begin, they'll do an objective deep dive in to what went wrong, yes, but more importantly, what could be improved upon and what could be done better in the future to potentially save property, but most importantly, prevent the deaths of the 93 people that have been counted to date. While disasters of all kinds are horrible and tragic, every effort should be taken to ensure the "lessons learned" are used to prevent or greatly mitigate loss of property and life should something similar happen in the future. Past hurricanes and earthquakes have caused building design and codes to be greatly improved. Airline tragedies have resulted in much safer flight in many respects. Fire codes have been created, strengthened and enforced - including building materials and construction, alarm and suppression systems - to reduce loss after past incidents were studied. This should be no different - And of course, the information should be shared so other regions might benefit from it as well.
Some of the people who do live there have said the sirens may have helped a few. The problem is that the event happened so fast that even with sirens, the outcome was going to be bad. Some will want to play the blame game no matter what. These extreme weather events will overpower any warning system. In other areas, we have recently seen pop up tornados and torrential downpours that came with no warning...
Tornados generally do not give advance notice such as Hurricanes do. They are closer to earthquakes than floods. Very brief specific data even if general wide area conditions exist for a tornado. It's been that way since prior to mankind's existence.
The point is cell service was knocked out, phone circuits are vulnerable, they will always be. People that think they can always depend on a cell phone are wrong.
A cell phone is a good device - when it works, but so is broadcast radio that can cover wider areas easily to help people.
If it was late at night, I guess the stations were automated . . . and if somebody tried to get to the station near the fires area maybe they could not . . . what about (as been said EAS) . . . guess local authorities did not activate it?
If the local station was destroyed what about other stations on Maui or what about the other islands and the Honolulu stations for example, as I said the AM's come in good from other islands especially if you're near the water, like Lahaina is.
They could have jumped in to help with info, yes even as you try to flee area, some people were in a position to listen to a radio in their car for example.
Like it was said who would listen to a radio late at night, well people wait for their phones to warn them (since it wakes them up), but heck if you're awakened by fire . . . and are trying to get out of area in your car . . . well that old car radio might help you.
But radio has made itself "unknown" in the minds of young people - radio broadcaster's fault, since some broadcasters are thinking streaming and not broadcasting anymore.
And if the young people think I can only stream KXXX-FM but my phone isn't working, well try that old radio in the car as you drive away and listen to KXXX-FM the old fashion way.
This is why there should be a radio receiver in every cell phone, if the cell service goes out you got a good old fashion radio to help entertain you or help you in an emergency.
They could figure out ways to make this work, they claim it eats up battery power. I think the companies that make cell phones could make it work if they really wanted to.
I saw people being interviewed on TV and they pointed out . . . no cell service, since again everybody goes for the phone when the crap hits the fan - good idea but don't count on it to be there everytime as this situation showed . . . radio stations not giving any info the guy being interviewed said, however the person being interviewed then said after 15 mins in their car a radio station started to give info on what was going on - THAT'S GOOD !
It didn't come from his cell phone, which again he said was not working, it came from a radio broadcast station, not a stream but a broadcast signal.
Him and his wife were trying to escape the area in their car and had the car radio on.
this too - let's be honest - if you had a REAL LIVE JOCK or OPERATOR at the station still at night, I know it will never happen again but let's say you did . . . he or she would have had the common sense to do the right thing and stop programming and warn people about what is going on . . . yes you're trying to get out of the area but that voice "on the radio" could help you with vital info.
Al
A cell phone is a good device - when it works, but so is broadcast radio that can cover wider areas easily to help people.
If it was late at night, I guess the stations were automated . . . and if somebody tried to get to the station near the fires area maybe they could not . . . what about (as been said EAS) . . . guess local authorities did not activate it?
If the local station was destroyed what about other stations on Maui or what about the other islands and the Honolulu stations for example, as I said the AM's come in good from other islands especially if you're near the water, like Lahaina is.
They could have jumped in to help with info, yes even as you try to flee area, some people were in a position to listen to a radio in their car for example.
Like it was said who would listen to a radio late at night, well people wait for their phones to warn them (since it wakes them up), but heck if you're awakened by fire . . . and are trying to get out of area in your car . . . well that old car radio might help you.
But radio has made itself "unknown" in the minds of young people - radio broadcaster's fault, since some broadcasters are thinking streaming and not broadcasting anymore.
And if the young people think I can only stream KXXX-FM but my phone isn't working, well try that old radio in the car as you drive away and listen to KXXX-FM the old fashion way.
This is why there should be a radio receiver in every cell phone, if the cell service goes out you got a good old fashion radio to help entertain you or help you in an emergency.
They could figure out ways to make this work, they claim it eats up battery power. I think the companies that make cell phones could make it work if they really wanted to.
I saw people being interviewed on TV and they pointed out . . . no cell service, since again everybody goes for the phone when the crap hits the fan - good idea but don't count on it to be there everytime as this situation showed . . . radio stations not giving any info the guy being interviewed said, however the person being interviewed then said after 15 mins in their car a radio station started to give info on what was going on - THAT'S GOOD !
It didn't come from his cell phone, which again he said was not working, it came from a radio broadcast station, not a stream but a broadcast signal.
Him and his wife were trying to escape the area in their car and had the car radio on.
this too - let's be honest - if you had a REAL LIVE JOCK or OPERATOR at the station still at night, I know it will never happen again but let's say you did . . . he or she would have had the common sense to do the right thing and stop programming and warn people about what is going on . . . yes you're trying to get out of the area but that voice "on the radio" could help you with vital info.
Al
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Only one station is licensed to the town, and its studios are located in its owner's cluster HQ in another town.
Few stations anywhere will have news staff outside of mornings. That is why we have EAS which is activated "automatically" at each station when its monitor receives an alert. At that point, the local authorities can broadcast on every station in the region.
Seems they did not. That is the proper method to notify of an emergency, not expecting stations to have staff on duty at off hours of the day.
There is no station located in the town. It's a high power FM and its studios are elsewhere and the transmitter is on a hill or mountainside.
The Honolulu FMs are blocked by terrain and the AMs are at the very fringe of potential coverage... around 0.5 to 1.0 millivolts.
Essentiall nobody would hear a distant Honolulu AM with a very weak signal. And those stations would not have reporters on duty at a moment's notice, either. EAS is intended to solve this issue and there are over 30 stations and translators on the island with no need to DX Honolulu stations. None of them appears to be anywhere near the area of the fire.
And they could listen for local stations on Maui, but who is going to do that with fire chasing them?
Because we are consumer driven, and young people don't want to use a portable radio.. they have a phone and Alexa.
Not top of mind in a life-threatening emergency.
You can't. Most phones have no earphone jack any more, and it is the wire on the earbuds that is the antenna for a radio. There is no way to put a useful FM antenna inside a phone.
It's an analog to digital conversion. Those are fairly high power consumption devices. And without an antenna, it won't work. This is not creating technology; it is "Laws of Physics" about antennas for the FM band.
Listening to one of the dozens of local stations that had no news staff on duty and which had not been activated by the EAS system.
What source of information would a night jock have? Maybe they could look it up on the Internet?
No? Ok, then it's EAS that had to jump in and be activated. The government did not do this and did not sound the sirens, either.
Human nature tends to be to look for the "magic bullet" that would have prevented the scale of the tragedy, and indeed we need to contemplate all pieces of information. But sometimes there is no singular scapegoat. Sometimes something moves with such speed and intensity that it was just going to be a tragic outcome. The road out of town was congested and only so many people were going to make it in time. People had minutes--as in single digit minutes in many cases--between seeing the flames and the fire being on top of them. There route out of Lahaina was choked--there was effectively only one place to go, and not everyone could get there in time, siren or no, EAS or no. There may well be findings that procedures weren't followed, or weren't in place that should have been, but once that fire started, there was little human beings were going to do to prevent the loss of life to follow.
The idea someone at a radio station was somehow going to have information in those circumstances that somehow saved lives is pure fiction.
The idea someone at a radio station was somehow going to have information in those circumstances that somehow saved lives is pure fiction.
Especially at 3AM
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