More HD AM comments

[Tom Wells]

Jerry is a 30+ year broadcasting veteran, educator and founder of Inside Radio. He knows anyone who's anyone in the business including successful station owners.

Lest we forget the focus of this discussion, namely, that programming is more important than delivery method (AM vs. FM, HD vs. analog), Don Barrett made an interesting observation on his LA Radio column.

He said this:

"It wasn’t that long ago when Comedy Central couldn’t do better than a 0.8 – 0.9 rating. Then they put on South Park. Wow!The half-hour leading into South Park was a 0.8. South Park spiked to a 5. The half-hour after South Park was back to a 0.8. The lesson learned? The public will come if you provide compelling and entertaining content."

Indeed. South Park is one of the few things I will turn on a television for.......

And that includes kids listening to Radio Disney on good old analog AM.

C5

 

[R.F. Burns]

Jerry is a 30+ year broadcasting veteran, educator and founder of Inside Radio. He knows anyone who's anyone in the business including successful station owners.

Lest we forget the focus of this discussion, namely, that programming is more important than delivery method (AM vs. FM, HD vs. analog), Don Barrett made an interesting observation on his LA Radio column.

He said this:

"It wasn’t that long ago when Comedy Central couldn’t do better than a 0.8 – 0.9 rating. Then they put on South Park. Wow!The half-hour leading into South Park was a 0.8. South Park spiked to a 5. The half-hour after South Park was back to a 0.8. The lesson learned? The public will come if you provide compelling and entertaining content."

Indeed. South Park is one of the few things I will turn on a television for.......

And that includes kids listening to Radio Disney on good old analog AM.

C5

Great, he's a genious and we should all bow down. Look, Radio Disney has few listeners and what listeners they do have are very very young and not exactly what the agencies are looking for. Radio Disney is used by many parents to keep the kids in the back seat quiet. You guys talk about stations which earn a million or two a year as though that was some gudeline for success. In a major market that kind of income is considered a failure. The problem many of us have is that for all intense and purposes we might as well be talking about different industries. Meanwhile with all the time we are all wasting on this board, HD radio continues on and there's no indication that the BC industry is anywhere near considering the shut down of any FM HD station. On AM if it works fine, if not, no big deal. AM radio statons are going the way of the model T. Look at where AM radio has gone. Today the once proud WABC only has two or three locally originated programs. That speaks volumes about what kind of shape AM radio is in.

 

[Play Freebird]

It is interesting to me that a lot of cell phones cause horrendous interference, and nobody says a thing. They periodically make strange noises that bleed into nearby telephones and audio equipment. It seems they do this when they “phone home” to the tower to let it know where it is.

Sounds to me like you've described a pulsed GSM signal, which has a fundamental frequency of 217 Hz and is transmitted with a distinctive rhythm for 2 or 3 seconds when the phone registers with a cell site. This frequently finds its way into wired electronic phones and poorly shielded audio gear, but I'm not sure FCC Part 15 covers RF demodulation by non-RF devices. My Treo has been causing such problems for years, and now we have GSM BlackBerries and the iPhone to contend with.

You might enjoy this entertaining video:

http://www.feelingcingular.com/watch

Google "GSM Noise" or "GSM Buzz" for much more discussion.

 

[Tom Wells]

Hmmmm. Why would such GSM pulse noise work is way into every instance I've seen where a transistor-based circuit is used, even at distances of 2-3 meters, when I hear neither the AT&T wireless card or cellphone put any noise into my pt 15 AM 1620 at about .5 meters?

The xmttr is tube-type, and wouldn'tcha think the higher impedance circuits would be more likely to pick this up?
I built no real special shielding into it, ... tubes above a metal panel.

I've heard this noise before on live traffic-chopper reports and other cases where you have to wonder where the offending phone
was along the airchain.

 

[Chuck]

Sounds to me like you've described a pulsed GSM signal, which has a fundamental frequency of 217 Hz and is transmitted with a distinctive rhythm for 2 or 3 seconds when the phone registers with a cell site. This frequently finds its way into wired electronic phones and poorly shielded audio gear, but I'm not sure FCC Part 15 covers RF demodulation by non-RF devices.

We have big problems with this noise during remotes using a Conex remote mixer. Our sports announcer carries a GSM phone, which we need for private communication during breaks. Maybe the noise is getting into the phone line which is not shielded. If that is the case, it is still one heck of a signal, since we feed a nominal +4 signal down the line. It is clearly audible on the air if the phone is kept closer than a few feet from the mixer.

The GSM signal also gets into our Wheatstone on air console as well as a vintage PR&E console. You'd hope that all those devices are not poorly shielded. The funny thing is we have fewer problems with the noise it in a production studio that has a Behringer mixer wired up with all unbalanced inputs (except for microphones). Go figure.

In any case, these things do make a lot of interference, which may skirt the Part 15 Regulations. If your next door neighbor’s kid had a mister microphone or Ramsey transmitter that did the same thing you might not be happy. There are lots of devices around most homes that make all kinds of disgusting noises. None of them help AM radio. Although a digital signal should theoretically survive a higher noise floor, I am fairly sure there becomes a point where it too low to be useful and won't decode. With the already low level of the HD signal, I suspect the point of no return is fairly easy to reach.

Admittedly, I don't have any AM HD signals to listen to in my area, but the FM versions seem to go away well before their analog counterparts.

 

[Tom Wells]

I built my equipment to be unbalanced, as I never expected it to be used in a high-RF environment, and to be more easily compatible
with consumer gear.
I wonder if balanced 600 ohm somehow makes a good antenna for this signal.
Isn't most 600 ohm audio line cover sheilded, too? This may be one of those instances where you need to open a shield, or ground the
"wrong" end of it.

I don't see how any of this stuff gets around part 15 unintentional radiation rules.
Nevermind it's in the Ghz, the mod byproducts are all over the BC AM band as far as a radio's concerned.
Once you're into the detector, it's audio.

 

[Chuck]

I wonder if balanced 600 ohm somehow makes a good antenna for this signal.
Isn't most 600 ohm audio line cover sheilded, too? This may be one of those instances where you need to open a shield, or ground the
"wrong" end of it.

I don't think it makes a good antenna. Most 600-ohm stuff is balanced. The whole point is the common-mode rejection, which cancels out interference, not enhances it. The idea of running 600 ohms at 1.775 volts is it is a low enough impedance and a hot enough signal that it takes quite a strong field to make enough difference in signal to noise to be annoying. The concept has worked for the phone company for well over 100 years with unshielded twisted pair. Most balanced audio cable is shielded. Usually, the only thing accomplished by lifting the shield at one end is getting rid of a ground loop which manifests itself as a nasty 60 or 120 Hz hum. I must admit I’ve never tried it to see if it helps with GSM cell phone interference.

It is becoming more and more common to run balanced audio through CAT-5 cable. Even though it is not shielded, it is remarkably good for audio, even in high RF environments. I'm old fashioned and prefer Belden foil shielded balanced pairs in the control room, but our transmitter is fed directly off of several hundred feet of CAT-5 and it works fine. Although it is not a big transmitter, it does not have any self-interference problems.

We've had trouble at sporting events, not only with our own announcer's GSM phone, but also with ones nearby in the crowd. I’ve also heard them come blasting through PA systems, so the problem is not just in broadcasting.

 

[hipporadio]

AHHHHHHH.... I’m just back from two weeks in Norway – and NOTHNG has changed here... Even though the “HD sales figures” have been revised downward... I’ll stick to my earlier pronouncement of about 130,000—NOT 330,000. :'( You “guys” are still tossing bombs and personal insults at each other while “HD” sales for 2007 STILL cannot [or will-not] be verified - when EVERY-OTHER consumer sector CAN; when broadcast stocks continue to flirt with “penny stock” territory; when revenues were dismal and their recovery has been placed in slow rotation; and when your industry is now officially AT-WAR with THE ONLY RESPECTED entity the Marketing sector will accept as reliable for your audience measurement... Now this has prompted the yet TOUGHEST LOVE from your former journal editor, Jerry D-C.

He’s getting bolder and better every week! On 3/6, he said: “Even Joan Rivers is cooler than HD Radio” ... That’s Jerry’s BEST YET... I’m simply not going to try to equal that humorous wisdom... I’m not worthy! HD aside, Jerry DC had FAR-MORE “tough love” for the industry in general [but the two are genetically-related]; but please note that he suggested that ALL HD-capable stations “SHUT IT OFF”... What a pronouncement from the former publisher of radio’s business authority!

 

[LinoNYC]

AHHHHHHH.... I’m just back from two weeks in Norway – and NOTHNG has changed here... Even though the “HD sales figures” have been revised downward... I’ll stick to my earlier pronouncement of about 130,000—NOT 330,000. :'( You “guys” are still tossing bombs and personal insults at each other while “HD” sales for 2007 STILL cannot [or will-not] be verified - when EVERY-OTHER consumer sector CAN; when broadcast stocks continue to flirt with “penny stock” territory; when revenues were dismal and their recovery has been placed in slow rotation; and when your industry is now officially AT-WAR with THE ONLY RESPECTED entity the Marketing sector will accept as reliable for your audience measurement... Now this has prompted the yet TOUGHEST LOVE from your former journal editor, Jerry D-C.

He’s getting bolder and better every week! On 3/6, he said: “Even Joan Rivers is cooler than HD Radio” ... That’s Jerry’s BEST YET... I’m simply not going to try to equal that humorous wisdom... I’m not worthy! HD aside, Jerry DC had FAR-MORE “tough love” for the industry in general [but the two are genetically-related]; but please note that he suggested that ALL HD-capable stations “SHUT IT OFF”... What a pronouncement from the former publisher of radio’s business authority!

I see the hippo is back and the balloon is filling with hot air again....

I personally think it delightful that the vultures of Wallstreet are learning dual lessons from the mortgage scams they inflicted on unsophisticated borrowers and now, the bloated media prices they helped to propegate.

Then we have Jerry "one-note" delColliano. For the year that I have read his blog it's been the same 'ol: record industry...dead, radio industry dying. Allways with the admonition "it's all their fault".

Even his readers have started plead get some new material!

"Even though the “HD sales figures” have been revised downward... I’ll stick to my earlier pronouncement of about 130,000—NOT 330,000."

Once again, any proof on that big guy? Ofcouse not, it's just an opinion, we understand.

" please note that he suggested that ALL HD-capable stations “SHUT IT OFF”... What a pronouncement from the former publisher of radio’s business authority!"

Right... and do what?... return to the "rich and warm" sound of analog AM and that homey sound of torn-up multipath riddled FM.

Good thing he cashed-in and headed for the cloistered halls of academia . Atleast there he can't be sued for malpractice.

BTW: Hows DAB doing in Europe? Don't look now but fresh off their twelve year experiment with the sacred Eureka sytsem they are now thinking along the lines of some form of iboc.

Will this agony never end!!

Delighted you are back, Lino

 

[hipporadio]

Actually, Lino... That was a good post... Congratulations!

I WILL disagree with your unfair characterization of Jerry D-C... And, of course—ME! Smiles, anyway.

 

[KB1OKL]

BTW: Hows DAB doing in Europe? Don't look now but fresh off their twelve year experiment with the sacred Eureka sytsem they are now thinking along the lines of some form of iboc.

Will this agony never end!!

It's great to see that you are finally starting to see the light, Lino.

 

[Play Freebird]

BTW: Hows DAB doing in Europe? Don't look now but fresh off their twelve year experiment with the sacred Eureka sytsem they are now thinking along the lines of some form of iboc.

At least the HD Radio team picked a beautiful place to do their European tests -- I mean, how can you do much better than Luzern, Switzerland? So regardless of whether the system succeeds or flops, a few people got some nice business travel out of the deal.

Maybe the "swiss cheese" coverage of IBOC was also a factor in the choice of location -- the promoters figured it would be a nice tie-in!

 

[calstymes]

LinoNYC did query:

Right... and do what?... return to the "rich and warm" sound of analog AM...

Yes!

KB1OKL then observed:

It's great to see that you are finally starting to see the light, Lino.

Agreed!