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New 93.3 morning show

Mr. Ed makes some good points about the era of freeform radio, but there were a few other factors in play...
One was the inability of many sales staffs to understand how to market the format. (They put pressure on programmers, then management, to make it more "commercial")
Another was the way, once an eclectic format became successful, imitators would pop up, splitting the time spent listening.
Still another was the way the Superstar format narrowed the focus to pop/rock by familiar artists, burning the core music the freeform programmers had made popular.
Then there was the way 'eclectic' turned to 'Album Oriented Rock', freezing out many of the artists that had made the format popular... Shawn Phillips,
David Bromberg, Weather Report, John Mayall and hundreds others all the sudden didn't fit the 'Rock' format.
And then the record companies stepped in, corrupting programmers to play certain records, and pressuring artists to deliver 'Hits'. (Ironically, the payola scandals moved music selection out of the jocks hands, into the hands of music directors, and then consultants. I wish the consultant could explain to me why he had a Texas Freeform heritage station add "Pousette Dart Band" back in '76... That was the day the music died for me....)
Last but not least you can blame the self-indulgence of the air staff, who decided their feces had no aroma, and failed to keep in touch with listeners.
Obscure and unknown artists and their tunes could still keep listeners, if the air talent knows how to 'sell' a song...But unfortunately, those who care have such widely divergant tastes, and those that don't respond only to the 'hits', and so there you are...
But still there's Redbeard, Jody Denberg and others who 'get it', and program some compelling shows.
g
 
grantchester said:
Mr. Ed makes some good points about the era of freeform radio, but there were a few other factors in play...
One was the inability of many sales staffs to understand how to market the format. (They put pressure on programmers, then management, to make it more "commercial")

Good point. In fact, selling FM at the time was a challenge, as FM had been around for about 20 years, and had an image of where the classical and background music was.

Another was the way, once an eclectic format became successful, imitators would pop up, splitting the time spent listening.
Still another was the way the Superstar format narrowed the focus to pop/rock by familiar artists, burning the core music the freeform programmers had made popular.

Obviously, Abrams could not have done WQDR and Superstars were it not for the expansion of the genre as a whole that free form stations had achieved.

Then there was the way 'eclectic' turned to 'Album Oriented Rock', freezing out many of the artists that had made the format popular... Shawn Phillips, David Bromberg, Weather Report, John Mayall and hundreds others all the sudden didn't fit the 'Rock' format.

Why do you think this occured?

And then the record companies stepped in, corrupting programmers to play certain records, and pressuring artists to deliver 'Hits'. (Ironically, the payola scandals moved music selection out of the jocks hands, into the hands of music directors, and then consultants. I wish the consultant could explain to me why he had a Texas Freeform heritage station add "Pousette Dart Band" back in '76... That was the day the music died for me....)

Just as payola influenced Top 40 in the late 50's, in fact. It's a recurring issue. Record companies seem never to have understood the consumer, as we see today in the failure to fully embrace downloads and other technologies and to present the technologies in a way friendly and inviting to consumers.

Last but not least you can blame the self-indulgence of the air staff, who decided their feces had no aroma, and failed to keep in touch with listeners. Obscure and unknown artists and their tunes could still keep listeners, if the air talent knows how to 'sell' a song...But unfortunately, those who care have such widely divergant tastes, and those that don't respond only to the 'hits', and so there you are...

The "I know what listeners want" attitude is a two edged sword. On one side, it did allow some interesting music to be played, but on the other hand it ignored listener input.

But still there's Redbeard, Jody Denberg and others who 'get it', and program some compelling shows.

One of my associates, Tom Owens (not the Clear Channel one) who was a Dallas AOR PD (KTXQ), speaks highly of Redbeard and wants to get together with him on our next Dallas visit. I agree, but there are too few of these genuinely great showmen today.
 
David wrote: Why do you think this occured?

It's the whole active listener/passive listener thing.

The active listener tunes in, hears 'Night Moves', says to himself:
I wonder what's on the college radio station.

The passive listener tunes in, hears 'Night Moves', says to self:
Cool! classic rock! I like classic rock. I think I'll set a button on this station.

The active listener tunes in and hears 'Groovers Paradise', says to self:
Man, I miss Doug Sahm... I remember seeing him at Armadillo. I think I'll stay tuned to see what they play next...

The passive listener hears 'Groovers Paradise', says to self:
What is this crap? I wonder what's on the oldies station.

I don't know which is more valuable... I'd think the passive listener would drive cume, and the active would drive TSL... I think the consultants prefer passive to active, cause there's more of them, but I think stations with active listeners have higher 'power ratios' because the listeners are more loyal... What do you think?
 
It's about finding that elusive balance between the active and passive.

It's programming (and economic) suicide for a low cuming station to play Doug Sahm, to use your example.

And it's programming suicide for a station with long TSL to play night moves 6 times a day.

But there's probably a middle ground there where the passive listeners don't hear a lot of stuff they're COMPLETELY unfamiliar with, and at the same time, the active/long listeners don't hear the same stuff over and over and over and over...(and over and over and over)
{and over and over and over and over}
[and over and over and over and over]

Whenever I hear a complaint about a station who's playlist isn't big enough, I ask how much the person listens to taht station- and whether they think that's above average, average, or below average compared to the average listener.

I always giggle when I hear some guy who listens non stop from 7am till 6pm tell me that he thinks he's "average". Really? 11 hours a day, 5 days a week, (plus weekends) on one station and you're average? ROFLMAO....

Of course you're sick of hearing teh same thing. And you're also an anomaly...
 
little1 said:
And it's programming suicide for a station with long TSL to play night moves 6 times a day.

OUCH! :eek:

Man I'd consider it suicide if any station plays any song in the library, 6 times a day. Well except for the CHR type formats emphasizing new music, that is.

R
 
grantchester said:
David wrote: Why do you think this occured?

It's the whole active listener/passive listener thing.

I took the whole day to think about your description of the active and passive listener. All of us have used these terms for decades, but you attached some meaning to them.

It's offten assumed that the active listener gets into new music faster, and more enthusiastically. You are broadening that to say that the get into deeper music, too. That is uncommon insigut, and the sort that is needed.

Too often the assumptions we have as part of radio are based on "that is how we alwasy do it" rather than any great underlying truth. I have in my department several people who had no radio background, but a solid reputation in another field. They frequently ask why things are done a certain way, and they expose things that we do but have no proof, no insight, no understanding of... just a habit.

It's fun to look at how inbred radio is. Your comment shows that again. It sure made me think!
 
Robert Bass said:
Man I'd consider it suicide if any station plays any song in the library, 6 times a day. Well except for the CHR type formats emphasizing new music, that is.
6 is a little high, but think about it this way- if you play something at 5am, 10am, 3pm, 8pm and 1am, what are the odds of somebody hearing it more than once or twice?

I don't know what the TSL at KEOM is like, but most stations are lucky to get a couple of hours a day...
 
little1 said:
I don't know what the TSL at KEOM is like, but most stations are lucky to get a couple of hours a day...

It's usually somewhere between 3 to 5 hours. In one book it shot up to 8 hours, but that's probably a fluke. Sadly though that 8 hour TSL was taken rather seriously by management, and I was instructed not to play the same song more than once a day.

R
 
Robert Bass said:
little1 said:
I don't know what the TSL at KEOM is like, but most stations are lucky to get a couple of hours a day...

It's usually somewhere between 3 to 5 hours. In one book it shot up to 8 hours, but that's probably a fluke. Sadly though that 8 hour TSL was taken rather seriously by management, and I was instructed not to play the same song more than once a day.

R

KEOM's TSL is about 3 hours a week, not per day.

The range for stations "In The Book" in the market is 3:30 to 9:30 per week; the highest TSL is just over 1:15 a day, and the lowest is about a half hour a day.
 
little1 said:
I don't know what the TSL at KEOM is like, but most stations are lucky to get a couple of hours a day...

No "in the book" rated station in the market gets "a couple of hours a day."
 
DavidEduardo said:
Robert Bass said:
little1 said:
I don't know what the TSL at KEOM is like, but most stations are lucky to get a couple of hours a day...

It's usually somewhere between 3 to 5 hours. In one book it shot up to 8 hours, but that's probably a fluke. Sadly though that 8 hour TSL was taken rather seriously by management, and I was instructed not to play the same song more than once a day.

R

KEOM's TSL is about 3 hours a week, not per day.

The range for stations "In The Book" in the market is 3:30 to 9:30 per week; the highest TSL is just over 1:15 a day, and the lowest is about a half hour a day.

Yeah, my error. I meant per week, I just forgot to include that.

R
 
David wrote: It sure made me think!

Thanks for the kind words. This Active/passive struggle has been something I've wondered about myself. You have to have an identifiable 'Brand' to let the passive listeners know who you are and what you're about, and I think that's why playlists get so tight. I've always favored active listeners, because I've been of the opinion they are more motivated to fill out a diary, and not only know your call letters, slogans and personalities, but are loyal enough to make a point of helping you out by writing you down in a diary.
Peoplemeter might favor the Passive listeners, since all they will have to do is be in the same space as a radio to count.
I remember several markets in the late '70s where easy listening stations were top-rated, but the word got out they were a bad ad vehicle, because the listeners were passive and weren't paying attention to the commericals. That's why those formats went away.
And Little1, I don't think Doug Sahm would work for the Bone, but Groover's Paradise would be a natural for what KZPS is trying to do.
g
 
TheRover said:
FACT:

The Bone, played "Immigrant Song" twice in one day, almost within the same 12 Hours on Monday (the 9th), once at 8:25AM and again at 9:08PM.

Big deal. It's called "recycling". They play it once in AM drive, and again in the late evening. What are the odds the average listener will hear both plays? Pretty low, considering the audience in AM drive isn't usually the same audience in the late evening.

R
 
Well spotted Robert.

And as I've said here before, when you're criticizing a station for short playlists, consider what the that stations TSL is...

If you believe DE's stat that the highest TSL in the market is 1:15 a day (and I don't doubt it, I just can't be bothered to try and look it up right now), what are the odds that, as Robert said, the same listener will be there at 8am AND 8pm..
(and I highly doubt that the Bone has TSL near that high...)
 
little1 said:
Well spotted Robert.

And as I've said here before, when you're criticizing a station for short playlists, consider what the that stations TSL is...

If you believe DE's stat that the highest TSL in the market is 1:15 a day (and I don't doubt it, I just can't be bothered to try and look it up right now), what are the odds that, as Robert said, the same listener will be there at 8am AND 8pm..
(and I highly doubt that the Bone has TSL near that high...)

So your're saying the standard is now lowered to "go with what you can get away with".
Nice.
Professionalism.

You always can rationalize away just about any @$#@$@ decision that radio makes.

The integrity of CR radio is non-existent. The customer station is always right.
 
little1 said:
And as I've said here before, when you're criticizing a station for short playlists, consider what the that stations TSL is...

While I would not disagree that TSL is a key element, it IS pretty annoying
as a listener to hear the same song in just a very short span. Not
too long ago I took my daughter to the doctor for an appointment. While
driving there I had it tuned into KISS FM, and we heard Gwen Stefani's
"Sweet Escape". Bad thing was, when we were headed home guess what
we heard AGAIN? Yep, Mrs. Gwen. Now the programmers and
consultants will say that you wouldn't have the same listeners over that
time span of maybe a couple hours, but there you go, I just gave you
an example.....And it's not the first time it's happened. Actually, it occurs
quite often. Go to the shopping mall, hear a song. Spend three hours in
the shopping mall and head home. Hear the same freakin' song again on
the ride home, OR commute to work in the morning, hear a song,
and hear the same damn tune driving home. Happens all the time. :-[
 
theshadow said:
little1 said:
And as I've said here before, when you're criticizing a station for short playlists, consider what the that stations TSL is...

While I would not disagree that TSL is a key element, it IS pretty annoying
as a listener to hear the same song in just a very short span. Not
too long ago I took my daughter to the doctor for an appointment. While
driving there I had it tuned into KISS FM, and we heard Gwen Stefani's
"Sweet Escape". Bad thing was, when we were headed home guess what
we heard AGAIN? Yep, Mrs. Gwen. Now the programmers and
consultants will say that you wouldn't have the same listeners over that
time span of maybe a couple hours, but there you go, I just gave you
an example.....And it's not the first time it's happened. Actually, it occurs
quite often. Go to the shopping mall, hear a song. Spend three hours in
the shopping mall and head home. Hear the same freakin' song again on
the ride home, OR commute to work in the morning, hear a song,
and hear the same damn tune driving home. Happens all the time. :-[

The same thing has happened for decades, on almost every "new music" station. Heck I have a tape here somewhere from the mid 80's KISS where Danger Zone from Kenny Loggins appears twice in a 90 minute time span.

Now if you have a similar situation with a library based format station, that is not good.

R
 
TheRover said:
little1 said:
Well spotted Robert.

And as I've said here before, when you're criticizing a station for short playlists, consider what the that stations TSL is...

If you believe DE's stat that the highest TSL in the market is 1:15 a day (and I don't doubt it, I just can't be bothered to try and look it up right now), what are the odds that, as Robert said, the same listener will be there at 8am AND 8pm..
(and I highly doubt that the Bone has TSL near that high...)

So your're saying the standard is now lowered to "go with what you can get away with".
Nice.
Professionalism.

This is not a new standard. It has been common practice on library based formatted stations for decades.

R
 
theshadow said:
little1 said:
And as I've said here before, when you're criticizing a station for short playlists, consider what the that stations TSL is...

While I would not disagree that TSL is a key element, it IS pretty annoying
as a listener to hear the same song in just a very short span. Not
too long ago I took my daughter to the doctor for an appointment. While
driving there I had it tuned into KISS FM, and we heard Gwen Stefani's
"Sweet Escape". Bad thing was, when we were headed home guess what
we heard AGAIN? Yep, Mrs. Gwen. Now the programmers and
consultants will say that you wouldn't have the same listeners over that
time span of maybe a couple hours, but there you go, I just gave you
an example.....And it's not the first time it's happened. Actually, it occurs
quite often. Go to the shopping mall, hear a song. Spend three hours in
the shopping mall and head home. Hear the same freakin' song again on
the ride home, OR commute to work in the morning, hear a song,
and hear the same damn tune driving home. Happens all the time. :-[


Top 40's been doin that for YEARS....no real surprise. They spin their "hots" about 80-90 times a week.
 
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