WTH? Where is the 60 DBU contour for the northern-most of the South Mountain stations? http://radioinsight.com/blog/headlines/70475/looking-at-fcc-auction-94-possibilities/
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new allocation in Sedro-Woolley
- Thread starter bobdavcav
- Start date
We've already got a ton of frequencies filled up. KAFE is unlistenable 30 miles N of Bellingham due to CHHR 104.3. The new 102.7 CKPK is destroying KZOK in Vancouver. CJZN 91.3 destroys KBCS anywhere N of Lynnwood or South Everett. KISM even gets bled over by CKYE in Whatcom County.
It's got to STOP. The FCC doesn't know there's a ton of stations in BC as well. And how KROH got on 91.1 with CJZN 30 miles away, 200 khz up on 91.3, is a MYSTERY. I wouldn't have allowed it.
-crainbebo
It's got to STOP. The FCC doesn't know there's a ton of stations in BC as well. And how KROH got on 91.1 with CJZN 30 miles away, 200 khz up on 91.3, is a MYSTERY. I wouldn't have allowed it.
-crainbebo
Where is W9Y when we need him? He explained this a couple years ago in a thread I saw, it may be worth restating here. I believe that what he said was legally stations are not protected outside the borders of the country, is that correct W9Y? Something does need to be done, I do agree. Yes, CHHR is much too close, but I don't think the FCC or CRTC cares about KZOK's reception in Vancouver.
Well, that's going to mean a LOT of things.
- First KPLU's Mount Vernon translator will AGAIN have to move. (The THIRD such move in 12 years.) Like I've said before, their planned 88.9 repeater will get WHIPPED by CBUX-FM-1 in Victoria.
- The new 105.7 station's signal will have to be INCREDIBLY directional if it's going to serve Snohomish County. (Did I even read this right? SNOHOMISH COUNTY?)
- I guess ALL Canadian channels south of the border and as close as Skagit and maybe even Whatcom County are now officially up for grabs. GREAT news for upstart broadcasters not concerned at all with having crappy signals. HORRIBLE news for listeners who want a halfway listenable FM dial.
- But since we're throwing all laws of physics, signal propagation and sanity out the window anyway, let's open up all those first adjacent channels (whatever even REMAIN) and REALLY destroy the FM band. I mean WHY stop here? Let's find EVERY FM frequency with less than a 60 dBu signal EVERYWHERE and shoehorn something ELSE on it. And don't EVEN stop there! Hell no! Let's get rid of 200 kHz spacing! Allow even numbers. 92.4, 106.6, just like in the UK and Europe and - TO HELL WITH THAT! 50 kHz spacing!. That's right! We simply haven't done ENOUGH to make FM radio UNLISTENABLE! Why not just say "f--k it" and GO ALL THE WAY?
- I don't know about you, but with an unlistenable mess like THIS on the horizon inevitably. I'm actually starting to think AM doesn't sound so bad by comparison......
- First KPLU's Mount Vernon translator will AGAIN have to move. (The THIRD such move in 12 years.) Like I've said before, their planned 88.9 repeater will get WHIPPED by CBUX-FM-1 in Victoria.
- The new 105.7 station's signal will have to be INCREDIBLY directional if it's going to serve Snohomish County. (Did I even read this right? SNOHOMISH COUNTY?)
- I guess ALL Canadian channels south of the border and as close as Skagit and maybe even Whatcom County are now officially up for grabs. GREAT news for upstart broadcasters not concerned at all with having crappy signals. HORRIBLE news for listeners who want a halfway listenable FM dial.
- But since we're throwing all laws of physics, signal propagation and sanity out the window anyway, let's open up all those first adjacent channels (whatever even REMAIN) and REALLY destroy the FM band. I mean WHY stop here? Let's find EVERY FM frequency with less than a 60 dBu signal EVERYWHERE and shoehorn something ELSE on it. And don't EVEN stop there! Hell no! Let's get rid of 200 kHz spacing! Allow even numbers. 92.4, 106.6, just like in the UK and Europe and - TO HELL WITH THAT! 50 kHz spacing!. That's right! We simply haven't done ENOUGH to make FM radio UNLISTENABLE! Why not just say "f--k it" and GO ALL THE WAY?
- I don't know about you, but with an unlistenable mess like THIS on the horizon inevitably. I'm actually starting to think AM doesn't sound so bad by comparison......
Wasn't this first requested 8-10 years ago by Jodesha? Obviously, the FCC doesn't care about the signal and Canadian frequencies, they're simply in it for the money. It won't serve Snohomish County, much less get a decent signal into Mount Vernon or Burlington. The FCC is probably hoping for a bidding war between Jodesha and the new owner of KAPS/KBRC. Someone buying this is going to have to have signals close by in order to make it worth buying.
No, what we really need to do is put other signals right on top of Vancouver flamethrowers. Oh wait, that's mostly already been done, but CHBE, CIOC, CHTT and CKKQ aren't covered up yet. The FCC has some sense though, from what I understand talking with the production guy I worked with for my senior project, CC has tried to upgrade 104.9 but can't because of CFUN. Why does KPLU have a commercial-band translator if they are trying to get a non-com? If they get 88.9, they will probably just shut down 105.5.Bongwater said:
And AM doesn't sound as bad. Know what I can hear on 1440 days? NOTHING. When did you hear that word on a NW WA/Lower Mainland FM dial last? 1990?
105.7 CBU is too strong to get a station ANYWHERE N of the 405/5 interchange. K289AK (Jesuscaster) is down in Orting, anyway.
I can't even get CHBE or KFFM anymore in S King County due to the damn jesuscaster on 107.3 in Greenwater blocking it. Plus Calvary Chapel wants MORE! MORE STATIONS! MORE INTERFERENCE!
I wouldn't be surprised if someone wants 93.5 in Skagit County sometime. Good luck, CJJR and KUBE will block your signal FIVE miles away! And cause interference all the way to Seattle...
-crainbebo
105.7 CBU is too strong to get a station ANYWHERE N of the 405/5 interchange. K289AK (Jesuscaster) is down in Orting, anyway.
I can't even get CHBE or KFFM anymore in S King County due to the damn jesuscaster on 107.3 in Greenwater blocking it. Plus Calvary Chapel wants MORE! MORE STATIONS! MORE INTERFERENCE!
I wouldn't be surprised if someone wants 93.5 in Skagit County sometime. Good luck, CJJR and KUBE will block your signal FIVE miles away! And cause interference all the way to Seattle...
-crainbebo
bobdavcav said:
Sounds like you're talking about me
You're right: U.S. stations are not protected from interference in Canada, and vice-versa. A new Sedro-Woolley station can clobber CBU-FM all the way up to Lynden, as long as none of that interference makes it across the border to Abbotsford.
Don't think that would get approved. Something on 93.7 to cover CJJR might, though. DXers are a very small group of people, one which the FCC doesn't care about. The average listener is not going to be trying for KFFM or CHBE in S King County. Usually, I can get KKBW somewhat around here, but over the past couple days all I've been getting on 104.9 is Sonic Vancouver. I was trying to record a new legal to put up on tophour.com yesterday and thought maybe I could try CHQM. My radio must not have a good filter on it though, as I hear 103.7 on there and sometimes I can hear 105.3 on 104.9, so the adjacents still need protection. The only station I can see being allocated without causing interference to a Seattle station and not covering a Canadian station, is 103.3.crainbebo said:
I'm glad to see w9wi had time to duck in here with a quick response - and now let me take a whack at this, too, with the understanding that I'm only the messenger, so don't go shooting ME, ok? ;D
There was a time when the FM band was open enough, especially on the Canadian side, that Canada and the US were each willing to protect each other's signals even on foreign soil. But 20 years or so ago, those agreements began to change. Why? It wasn't because the FCC or Industry Canada "didn't care" about DXers. It wasn't because the FCC or Industry Canada were blind to the reality that RF crosses borders. It was because the job of Industry Canada (working in tandem with the CRTC) is to provide Canadian broadcast service to the people of Canada, and because the job of the FCC is to provide US broadcast service to the people of the US.
Here's how the rules now work: as far as the FCC is concerned, there is no CBU-FM signal on 105.7 on US soil. If I want to apply for a new signal on 105.7 in, say, Sedro-Woolley, I can do it, and I don't have to be in any way concerned about interfering with CBU-FM, as long as that interference takes place on US soil. What I cannot do, however, is to cause any "predicted interference" to CBU-FM on Canadian soil. How is that interference predicted? It's all a question of ratios: if CBU-FM puts, say, a 75 dBu signal at the Peace Arch, my signal at that spot on the border must be a certain ratio lower. (I *think* that number is 40 dB, so my interfering signal couldn't be more than 35 dBu; I might be wrong about the exact number.)
The idea here is that a strong domestic signal can drown out a weaker foreign signal - if CBU-FM is a floodlight at the border, my flashlight bulb somewhere over on the US side just isn't going to be strong enough to be seen, right? For the most part, the "capture effect" of FM works pretty well here: unlike with AM, a stronger FM signal can completely block out a weaker incoming signal, assuming some fairly ideal conditions (i.e., flattish terrain and a stationary receiver.)
Now the real-world problem with this, from a DXer's point of view, is obvious: that floodlight doesn't stop at the border, even if the rules pretend it does, and so my flashlight bulb is still getting drowned out by the Canadian floodlight on US soil. That, however, is my risk to take as a licensee: while I don't have to protect the Canadian signal on US soil, I'm also not protected from that signal if it was there first, and presumably I know that going in. If I'm a would-be broadcaster and I have a choice between getting on the air on a frequency where I'll suffer some incoming interference on the edge of my signal, or not getting a frequency to use at all, what am I going to choose to do?
Add into the mix the terrain around Puget Sound and you have a recipe for lots of real-world interference that may not exist "officially" on paper. In practice, it means that the regulators on both sides of the border have exchanged a smaller number of wider-coverage signals for a much larger number of signals that, for the most part, don't travel very far. But the key point is: the regulators didn't do this in a vacuum. They did it because the demand from broadcasters for more signals has been intense, especially on the Canadian side where stations have been fleeing AM like it's a sinking ship. The broadcasters are the regulators' biggest constituency. There was never any point in the process where anyone with standing to do so stood up in front of the FCC or Industry Canada and made a case in favor of protecting cross-border FM signals from interference.
There was a time when the FM band was open enough, especially on the Canadian side, that Canada and the US were each willing to protect each other's signals even on foreign soil. But 20 years or so ago, those agreements began to change. Why? It wasn't because the FCC or Industry Canada "didn't care" about DXers. It wasn't because the FCC or Industry Canada were blind to the reality that RF crosses borders. It was because the job of Industry Canada (working in tandem with the CRTC) is to provide Canadian broadcast service to the people of Canada, and because the job of the FCC is to provide US broadcast service to the people of the US.
Here's how the rules now work: as far as the FCC is concerned, there is no CBU-FM signal on 105.7 on US soil. If I want to apply for a new signal on 105.7 in, say, Sedro-Woolley, I can do it, and I don't have to be in any way concerned about interfering with CBU-FM, as long as that interference takes place on US soil. What I cannot do, however, is to cause any "predicted interference" to CBU-FM on Canadian soil. How is that interference predicted? It's all a question of ratios: if CBU-FM puts, say, a 75 dBu signal at the Peace Arch, my signal at that spot on the border must be a certain ratio lower. (I *think* that number is 40 dB, so my interfering signal couldn't be more than 35 dBu; I might be wrong about the exact number.)
The idea here is that a strong domestic signal can drown out a weaker foreign signal - if CBU-FM is a floodlight at the border, my flashlight bulb somewhere over on the US side just isn't going to be strong enough to be seen, right? For the most part, the "capture effect" of FM works pretty well here: unlike with AM, a stronger FM signal can completely block out a weaker incoming signal, assuming some fairly ideal conditions (i.e., flattish terrain and a stationary receiver.)
Now the real-world problem with this, from a DXer's point of view, is obvious: that floodlight doesn't stop at the border, even if the rules pretend it does, and so my flashlight bulb is still getting drowned out by the Canadian floodlight on US soil. That, however, is my risk to take as a licensee: while I don't have to protect the Canadian signal on US soil, I'm also not protected from that signal if it was there first, and presumably I know that going in. If I'm a would-be broadcaster and I have a choice between getting on the air on a frequency where I'll suffer some incoming interference on the edge of my signal, or not getting a frequency to use at all, what am I going to choose to do?
Add into the mix the terrain around Puget Sound and you have a recipe for lots of real-world interference that may not exist "officially" on paper. In practice, it means that the regulators on both sides of the border have exchanged a smaller number of wider-coverage signals for a much larger number of signals that, for the most part, don't travel very far. But the key point is: the regulators didn't do this in a vacuum. They did it because the demand from broadcasters for more signals has been intense, especially on the Canadian side where stations have been fleeing AM like it's a sinking ship. The broadcasters are the regulators' biggest constituency. There was never any point in the process where anyone with standing to do so stood up in front of the FCC or Industry Canada and made a case in favor of protecting cross-border FM signals from interference.
Scott Fybush said:
It's 20dB, but the way in which the interfering signal is calculated is different from the way in which the protected signal is calculated.
I found a copy of the treaty on the Industry Canada website on http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf01393.html. It was amended in 1991 but not in any way that affects these calculations.
Protected coverage area:
- All stations except Class C are protected from interference at any distance where they're predicted to provide at least 54dBu of signal at at least half of locations at least half the time. ("F(50,50)") Class C stations are protected where they're predicted to deliver at least 58dBu F(50,50)
Interfering area:
- All stations except Class C are presumed to cause interference if they're predicted to provide more than 34dBu of signal at at least half of locations at least 10% of the time within the protected station's protected coverage area. ("F(50,10)") Class C stations are predicted to cause interference if predicted to deliver more than 38dBu of signal.
Cross-border interference:
- Quoted directly from clause 5.2.2.4 of the treaty:
In other words, not only does interference to CBU-FM not count if that interference happens in the U.S., it also doesn't count if it only happens over water, even if that water is in Canada's territorial waters.
Of course, "buyers remorse" is not unheardof
Scott would know far better than I, but wasn't there a station somewhere in southern Ontario that thought it could make a go of it on 99.5, just a few kilometers from a 110,000-watt station in Buffalo, NY? ISTR this station learned that while there was no interference in the eyes of the Treaty, there was plenty of interference in the eyes of the audience!
My question would be, how good is CBU's signal in the Sedro-Woolley/Burlington/Mount Vernon area? Checking the terrain on Google Earth, there's alot of taller hills (Chuckanut, Lookout, Anderson Mountains) to the north the area. As long as they weren't planning on placing the transmitter on top of one of those hills, I could see it work out as the signal could be naturally directional at a lower elevation. Obviously the farther away from Mount Vernon you get, the more likely CBU is going to crush the poor class-A signal.
w9wi said:
It was a little more than "a few kilometers" - the station in question was CIKZ in the Kitchener-Waterloo area, 70 miles or so west of Buffalo, maybe even closer to 80 when you consider that the WDCX transmitter is a good distance southeast of Buffalo. It managed to find an alternate frequency eventually, but the 99.5 frequency didn't stay empty for long: CKKW 1090 then moved there, and has apparently done OK for itself somehow. (There was also a 92.9 that tried to make a go of it against WBUF 92.9 Buffalo, eventually moved to 107.5, and then another new 92.9 facility was authorized.)
I am reminded of the time I was a teenager, and the FCC published a list and a map of FM frequencies and allocations for the United States. As I recall, we have C's, B's, and A's. Nobody overlapped, the whole country was covered with something.
Then deregulation. Now we have C, C0, C1, C2, C3, etc. Everytime somebody moves something in, they backfill with replacement channels, next person comes along and figures out a way to cram one of the replacement channels somewhere, we have rim shots, and we have some real "junk" channels. Many of the border allotments are jokes.
Ah, the good old days.
Gotta go now... working on the next big move-in...
Then deregulation. Now we have C, C0, C1, C2, C3, etc. Everytime somebody moves something in, they backfill with replacement channels, next person comes along and figures out a way to cram one of the replacement channels somewhere, we have rim shots, and we have some real "junk" channels. Many of the border allotments are jokes.
Ah, the good old days.
Gotta go now... working on the next big move-in...
B
BurntOutRadio
Guest
Gotta go now... working on the next big move-in...
Hahahahahahaha!!!
Hahahahahahaha!!!
I was surprised even several years ago while traveling to California from here, that a 95.1 existed in Centralia (KITI), despite 94.9 (KUOW) being on the air in Seattle, and that 94.5 was allocated to Shelton/Olympia (KRXY), even though there was already a station on 94.5 in the Kelso/Longview area (now KLYK).
If the FCC started authorizing class B stations in WA state like in New York and Southern California, then the dial would really start getting crowded.
If the FCC started authorizing class B stations in WA state like in New York and Southern California, then the dial would really start getting crowded.
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