• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

New Chicago oldies station WZZN-FM

Re: Cleveland Rocks!

>
> Whoa...
>
> David, that's going a bit far. You can argue with Mike
> about oldies playlists, and radio business, &c.
>
> But when you start dissing Cleveland, you gotta deal with
> not only Mike, but Me, Old Akronite, Nate81, and a number of
> other posters at the Cleveland board.

That's OK. All are good folks, but you are defending a losing cause.
>
> That was way over the line. Let's not make this a pissing
> match about whose city and environs are better, or about
> who's a "fool" (which is what this thread was turning into).

Cleveland, with negative population growth and stagnant CSI is not exactly where the other 99.4% of America wants to move.
>
> So, in a nutshell--Step off Jack. Cleveland Rocks.

It has not roced since Alan Freed left town for NY.
>
> Just because YOU left 40 years ago...

Yeah, cities where the rivers catch fire have limited appeal.
 
You should have apologized David!

> >
> > Whoa...
> >
> > David, that's going a bit far. You can argue with Mike
> > about oldies playlists, and radio business, &c.
> >
> > But when you start dissing Cleveland, you gotta deal with
> > not only Mike, but Me, Old Akronite, Nate81, and a number
> of
> > other posters at the Cleveland board.
>
> That's OK. All are good folks, but you are defending a
> losing cause.
> >
> > That was way over the line. Let's not make this a pissing
>
> > match about whose city and environs are better, or about
> > who's a "fool" (which is what this thread was turning
> into).
>
> Cleveland, with negative population growth and stagnant CSI
> is not exactly where the other 99.4% of America wants to
> move.
> >
> > So, in a nutshell--Step off Jack. Cleveland Rocks.
>
> It has not roced since Alan Freed left town for NY.
> >
> > Just because YOU left 40 years ago...
>
> Yeah, cities where the rivers catch fire have limited
> appeal.
>
WHAT does any of that have to do with radio??
David, in your previous post about why would anyone want to live in Cleveland,
that could be considered a personal attack on Mike Dane
PS Get it through your head, PLEASE, I'm not defending Mike, just pointing out my opinion that fair play should be exercised. YOU of all people should know better!!!

Please, you don't have to point out the obvious that I am not a moderator, so I just saved you the trouble...

You may have violated Rule #1 and #4
The following types of messages are not permitted (posts which violate these rules will be removed without notice to you):

1. Messages containing personal attacks, slanderous material, and similar nonsense.
4. Off-topic posts. All posts should directly relate to the broadcasting industry.

As always thank you for your time
 
Thank You

Thank you for your response. I can appreciate your position and want for privacy. I guess some here would like to know if you are currently employed/involved in a radio station or are you "on the beach", a victim perhaps of consolidation. But I respect your privacy and I'll leave it at that.
Thanks again

Peace

Out!
 
Re: Cleveland Rocks!

> >
> > Whoa...
> >
> > David, that's going a bit far. You can argue with Mike
> > about oldies playlists, and radio business, &c.
> >
> > But when you start dissing Cleveland, you gotta deal with
> > not only Mike, but Me, Old Akronite, Nate81, and a number
> of
> > other posters at the Cleveland board.
>
> That's OK. All are good folks, but you are defending a
> losing cause.

Thanks, but we don't consider it a losing cause.

> > That was way over the line. Let's not make this a pissing
>
> > match about whose city and environs are better, or about
> > who's a "fool" (which is what this thread was turning
> into).
>
> Cleveland, with negative population growth and stagnant CSI
> is not exactly where the other 99.4% of America wants to
> move.

It's not a negative population growth. You're the big fact guy, I would expect you to get out of the blinders and check these things. We have been stable--no growth, but no loss in Greater Cleveland. (Yes, the city proper has lost population, but are we really going to call "Cleveland" just the legal boundaries of that single municipality?)

Furthermore, SOMETHING must be working--the Economist (London)Intelligence Unit declared Cleveland (and Pittsburgh, tied) as the most livable cities in the US; and C-Town is #26 most livable in the world.

> > So, in a nutshell--Step off Jack. Cleveland Rocks.
>
> It has not roced since Alan Freed left town for NY.

WMMS means nothing? WIXY means nothing? WMJI means nothing? "The End" means nothing? Add to that Norm N. Nite, Kid Leo, Pere Ubu, Springsteen's nationwide exposure, Devo, Southside Johnny, the Outsiders, Gary Lewis, the Agora, the Friggin' Rock Hall.

Need I go on?

> > Just because YOU left 40 years ago...
>
> Yeah, cities where the rivers catch fire have limited
> appeal.

Hasn't happened since 1969. And the really big on was in 1952--you know, when Alan Freed was here.

That's also a pretty thin reason to slam your hometown, David. Again, no pissing matches here, but I can surely check off some undesirables about LA, Puerto Rico, Buenos Aires, and Ecuador if we want to go down that path.
 
Cleveland still rocks!

> .
> > >
> > Nope, still open for discussion.
> >
>
> What I _really_ want to know is why anyone, having freedom
> of choice, would live in the Cleveland area...
>

Whoa! Careful Dave. Cleveland is still a union town..which means wiseguys are still around. Don't want to send someone from the "pipe fitters local" to see you.

KIDDING MR. MODERATOR!!!


I grew up in Cleveland (Lakewood) and can remember not wanting to say I was from Cleveland. Then, in the mid 80's then Mayor George Voinoich started to get the city back on track.

Clevland has been voted "All-American City" at least 5 times since 1986. It's no longer the "Mistake on the Lake". Crime stats are lower than most cities it's size. Cost of living isn't bad. If it didn't snow there I'd want to move back.

As far as "not having rocked since Alan Freed went to NYC...". Wrong Dave. WMMS put Cleveland on the musical map once again from 1968-1985. Cleveland was place to have music/acts broken. Cleveland was on par with NYC and L.A. You can say I'm wrong, but I'm not. I'll quickly list a few prominent acts Cleveland helped to "break"; Rush, Springsteen, Bowie, Meatloaf, Sonny Geraci/Outsiders, Edwin Starr. Before you say that was a long time ago, here's another: Trent Reznor. If I wanted I could find more. Rush was discovered by a WMMS jock.

Since this is a radio board I'll steer the post to Cleveland radio. Bland by most counts, but still impressive when put up against the rest of the stagnant radio out there; WMJI (oldies) has been the #1 oldies station in the U.S. since 1997, AND has 4 Marconi's in that time AND the morning show has 2 Marconi's as well as R&R Large Mkt Personality honors. WMMS is still a major player. WNWV (jazz)is a multi-Marconi winner. WZAK has won a Marconi. WGAR won 3 consecutive CMAs in the mid 90s (before CC took over).

A great read about Cleveland radio is Mike Olszewski's "Radio Daze". Deals with the history of Cleveland radio from 1968 on, focusing most on FM radio and WMMS.

Dave, you are indeed wise in the ways of radio as a business, though I'm not sure how many stations you've programmed. Regarding commmenting on Cleveland, you are way off base. Especially for someone who grew up there. Apparently you haven't been back recently for an extended stay.

Now, a truly pitiful city...Toledo. LOL!

<P ID="signature">______________
Everyone is entitled to my opinion.</P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by bigwoody on 10/06/05 07:19 PM.</FONT></P>
 
Re: Cleveland Rocks!

Can't really comment, but I don't think I'd like the winters. They're a little milder in my corner of Ohio, and I don't like them. Do want to see the R&RHall of fame though. And you're right, my understanding is that the Cuyahoga is relatively clean. Side note: I almost burned my grandmother's house down practicing for a science project where I was going to demonstrate how the Cuyahoga caught fire.
 
Re: Cleveland still rocks!

>
> Dave, you are indeed wise in the ways of radio as a
> business, though I'm not sure how many stations you've
> programmed. Regarding commmenting on Cleveland, you are way
> off base. Especially for someone who grew up there.
> Apparently you haven't been back recently for an extended
> stay.

Unfortunately, I go back often, as my sister and nephews live there... it certainly has improved since the 60's, but it is still part of the Syracuse to Detroit part of the "old economy" rustbelt. It has a nasty climate, and is certainly not where musch action in arts, science or technology is happening (despite the Cleveland Clinic and CWR being exceptions(.
>
> Now, a truly pitiful city...Toledo. LOL!

Now we agree. Cleveland is a garden spot next to that one. Or Erie. Or Buffalo.
>
 
Re: Cleveland Rocks!

>
> It's not a negative population growth. You're the big fact
> guy, I would expect you to get out of the blinders and check
> these things. We have been stable--no growth, but no loss
> in Greater Cleveland. (Yes, the city proper has lost
> population, but are we really going to call "Cleveland" just
> the legal boundaries of that single municipality?)

Cleveland MSA is down in the Claritas projections to 2007... minimally, but it is negative growth.
>
> Furthermore, SOMETHING must be working--the Economist
> (London)Intelligence Unit declared Cleveland (and
> Pittsburgh, tied) as the most livable cities in the US; and
> C-Town is #26 most livable in the world.

To each their own. The 100 consecutive days of grim, gray overcast weather in the winter is depressing... there is a limit on how many times you can visit the R^R Hall of Fame. Of course, some things are better. I remember a friends birthday party on a Cuyahoga River "tour boat" where the most fun was to have a game to see whether more turds floated by on the port or starboard side of the boat. Did I mention the river fire? Or Dennis?
>
> > > So, in a nutshell--Step off Jack. Cleveland Rocks.
> >
> > It has not roced since Alan Freed left town for NY.
>
> WMMS means nothing?

If we mean "rocks" in the sense of "home to rock n roll" that is different. The dismal rust belt cities are famous for the escapism of heavy metal... But the city itself does not rock. It barely simmers.

> WIXY means nothing?

Not really, it was a pretty average Top 40 under NormBob.

> WMJI means nothing?

Good morning show, granted.

> "The End" means nothing? Add to that Norm N. Nite, Kid
> Leo, Pere Ubu, Springsteen's nationwide exposure, Devo,
> Southside Johnny, the Outsiders, Gary Lewis, the Agora, the
> Friggin' Rock Hall.
>
> Need I go on?
>
> > > Just because YOU left 40 years ago...
> >
> > Yeah, cities where the rivers catch fire have limited
> > appeal.
>
> Hasn't happened since 1969. And the really big on was in
> 1952--you know, when Alan Freed was here.
>
> That's also a pretty thin reason to slam your hometown,
> David.

I used to get into this with my mother... and she was such a Cleveland booster that they named a County hospital after her. I just find it a dull city, enhanced by a dull, unpleasant climate.

> Again, no pissing matches here, but I can surely
> check off some undesirables about LA, Puerto Rico, Buenos
> Aires, and Ecuador if we want to go down that path.

LA is a horrible place, as most cities over 4 or 5 million get to be. Give me San Diego, Tucson, Austin, and even Charleston, SC, as very livable cities that are vibrant.
>
 
Re: Cleveland still rocks!

> >
> > Dave, you are indeed wise in the ways of radio as a
> > business, though I'm not sure how many stations you've
> > programmed. Regarding commmenting on Cleveland, you are
> way
> > off base. Especially for someone who grew up there.
> > Apparently you haven't been back recently for an extended
> > stay.
>
> Unfortunately, I go back often, as my sister and nephews
> live there... it certainly has improved since the 60's, but
> it is still part of the Syracuse to Detroit part of the "old
> economy" rustbelt. It has a nasty climate, and is certainly
> not where musch action in arts, science or technology is
> happening (despite the Cleveland Clinic and CWR being
> exceptions(.
> >
> > Now, a truly pitiful city...Toledo. LOL!
>
> Now we agree. Cleveland is a garden spot next to that one.
> Or Erie. Or Buffalo.
> >
>

After having lived in Raleigh - a very high tech savvy area (Research Triangle Park), yes, the "North" is hurting in that area. Even Chicago and NY arguably are not as high tech. Toledo/Cleveland rank near the bottom of the high tech regions.<P ID="signature">______________
Everyone is entitled to my opinion.</P>
 
Re: the radio

> > Yeah, Mike- you never do that, never come on and trash
> radio
> > professionals.
>
> Well the only two people I have disagreements with are you
> and David. And you're not a radio professional so you must
> mean David.
> I may disagree with David but he's up front with who he is
> and what he's done. I have a few questions I'd like to get
> answers to but thats ok. I don't think David has a good
> grasp of the music side, but that is only my opinion. If I
> wanted someone for the day to day office operations or a
> recommendation to someone for that job, David would be on
> my short list. Disagree with him or not. Like him or not,
> he has gotten my respect.
>
> >
> > Grow up.
>
> I will if you will. quit hiding and show me some proof.
>
> Mike Dane
> WSTB-FM 88.9
> SundayOldiesJukebox.com
>
> King of the Ohio Non-Comms.
>

Let me get this straight. Mike Dane works three hours a week at a non-com alternative station that flips formats one day a week to oldies...and he's calling people's credentials into question?

Like em or hate em....Either David Eduardo OR Oldies Cat has more credibility in this industry (and on these boards) than Mike Dane. The King of the Ohio Non-Comms has no clothes, just like the proverbial emperor. Being a Sunday night volunteer dj on a non-profit station is certainly better than not being in the industry at all....but not by much.

Grow up, Mike....sit down, shut up, watch, learn and grow....and in 10 years, if you're lucky, you'll still be in radio...maybe even getting paid for it...and you'll have enough experience and insight to be a) more humble....b) more tolerant...and c) more gracious. Right now, you ARE a wanna-be professional....cause professionals (usually) act like it....and professionals get paid.

Good luck on your future....I know *I'd* plug in voicetracks--or a satellite dish-- before I'd hire an employee with an attitude like yours.
 
welcome

I am DEFINITELY employed, and have been-- quite gainfully.

Mike can try his "calling me out" tricks (and I know that probably makes him feel like a big man for a minute or two), but one thing he must not understand is that I am not accountable to Mike Dane for anything.


> Thank you for your response. I can appreciate your position
> and want for privacy. I guess some here would like to know
> if you are currently employed/involved in a radio station or
> are you "on the beach", a victim perhaps of consolidation.
> But I respect your privacy and I'll leave it at that.
> Thanks again
>
> Peace
>
> Out!
>
 
Re: Cleveland Rocks!

> >
> > It's not a negative population growth. You're the big
> fact
> > guy, I would expect you to get out of the blinders and
> check
> > these things. We have been stable--no growth, but no loss
>
> > in Greater Cleveland. (Yes, the city proper has lost
> > population, but are we really going to call "Cleveland"
> just
> > the legal boundaries of that single municipality?)
>
> Cleveland MSA is down in the Claritas projections to 2007...
> minimally, but it is negative growth.

Not to get into the "battle of the experts," but a Plain Dealer story from last week supports zero-growth/zero-loss:

"A recent study of the nation's largest metropolitan areas found in Northeast Ohio an uncommon streak of status quo: Greater Cleveland is about the same size today as it was 45 years ago, with about 3 million people.

Demographic experts project our population will still be about 3 million in 2030, virtually unchanged across 70 years, a consistency seen as uncanny and worrying."

<a target="_blank" href=http://www.cleveland.com/search/index.ssf?/base/iseco/112790703047250.xml?iseco&coll=2&thispage=1>http://www.cleveland.com/search/index.ssf?/base/iseco/112790703047250.xml?iseco&coll=2&thispage=1</a>


> > > It has not roced since Alan Freed left town for NY.
> >
> > WMMS means nothing?
>
> If we mean "rocks" in the sense of "home to rock n roll"
> that is different. The dismal rust belt cities are famous
> for the escapism of heavy metal... But the city itself does
> not rock. It barely simmers.

WMMS's glory days were in the 70s and early 80s--well before heavy metal. Cleveland's "heavy metal" station (Z-Rock 107.3) lasted about two years.

And don't try now to change the tone--if you meant something other than musically, why'd you bring up Alan Freed?

> > WIXY means nothing?
>
> Not really, it was a pretty average Top 40 under NormBob.

Nationally known and respected, if not for its amazing promotional gimmicks, then for its flawless presentation.

But this is getting into personal proclivities.

I could have chosen WHK or WGAR or any number of other stations.

> > WMJI means nothing?
>
> Good morning show, granted.

Yeah, that whole Top 3 in 25-54 since 1991 has nothing to do with it, huh?

Not to mention the consistent #1 in demo since 1997; and the #1 billing since the early/mid 90s; and the numerous Marconis and R&R large market station awards.

And J.R. Nelson!

> > "The End" means nothing? Add to that Norm N. Nite, Kid
> > Leo, Pere Ubu, Springsteen's nationwide exposure, Devo,
> > Southside Johnny, the Outsiders, Gary Lewis, the Agora,
> the
> > Friggin' Rock Hall.
> >
> > Need I go on?
> >
> > > > Just because YOU left 40 years ago...
> > >
> > > Yeah, cities where the rivers catch fire have limited
> > > appeal.
> >
> > Hasn't happened since 1969. And the really big on was in
> > 1952--you know, when Alan Freed was here.
> >
> > That's also a pretty thin reason to slam your hometown,
> > David.
>
> I used to get into this with my mother... and she was such a
> Cleveland booster that they named a County hospital after
> her. I just find it a dull city, enhanced by a dull,
> unpleasant climate.
> >
> > Again, no pissing matches here, but I can surely
> > check off some undesirables about LA, Puerto Rico, Buenos
> > Aires, and Ecuador if we want to go down that path.
>
> LA is a horrible place, as most cities over 4 or 5 million
> get to be. Give me San Diego, Tucson, Austin, and even
> Charleston, SC, as very livable cities that are vibrant.

Charleston, SC? Beautiful city, granted. Mucho historic. But let's see how you feel about it come July and August when the electric bill is so high you have to turn off the AC or else go bankrupt, and you're sitting in your t-shirt and shorts bathing in a pool of your own humid sweat.
 
Re: LOL, so we can expect NO apology, huh David??

Ummm....let's see why someone would live in Cleveland. Lake Erie, the metroparks, 3 major sports teams, two more minor league baseball teams within a 30 minute drive of downtown, for the most part not a lot of traffic, the cleveland orchestra, cedar point, the islands, a lot of cool college radio stations, health care community (ie. the cleveland clinic and metro hospital), a top 25 market, within 8 hours driving time of other major cities (chicago, toronto, new york, washington d.c., charlotte, and all points inbetween), university circle, and on and on and on.

(thank you HHH for a lot of good points that I included here)

Also, hasn't it been over 30 years now since the river caught on fire? Oh, it has been. That's what I thought.<P ID="signature">______________
"I reject your reality and substitute in my own."
Adam Savage - Mythbusters (Discovery Channel)</P>
 
Re: Mistaken, period.

> .
> > >
> > Nope, still open for discussion.
> >
>
> What I _really_ want to know is why anyone, having freedom
> of choice, would live in the Cleveland area...
>

To be honest David, I don't know why I stay here. When I
got out of the service this was home. I bummed around europe
and the mid-east a bit and decided to come back. Now my
family is gone and I hate winter more and more each year.
My friends are slowly leaving the area as well so I imagine
its just a matter of time before I pack up and go somewhere
else. Preferably warm.
The Cleveland/Akron area is really a nice place because of
the people and some of the things here, but it is slowly
dying. Akron is not the town I grew up in by a long shot
and that saddens me.
Next time you hear "My Town is Gone" by Chrissy Hynde think
Akron.

Mike Dane<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by MikeDane on 10/07/05 05:53 PM.</FONT></P>
 
(but you didn't reply to my post below!)

> Nope. It's not my idea of a nice place.


YOU have DODGED the question again!! David, you should be in politics, not radio!! You are Spinmaster Supremo!
Again you let your personal feelings trump your logic in responding with a personal attack that was meant for one person only but it really turned out to be a personal insult to anyone who calls the Cleveland area home even though its obvious you know what you did and you knew you could get away with it!
I would guess that there are FEW here who can look at this dialogue OBJECTIVELY and agree with your technique. Getting a Mea Culpa from you is like winning the lottery I guess. I enjoy reading your posts but why don't you be a Big Man and apologize for what you did? Yes, I am calling you out on this for all visitors here to see.......
A reprise of what I posted below:

WHAT does any of that have to do with radio??
David, in your previous post about why would anyone want to live in Cleveland,
that could be considered a personal attack on Mike Dane
PS Get it through your head, PLEASE, I'm not defending Mike, just pointing out my opinion that fair play should be exercised. YOU of all people should know better!!!

Please, you don't have to point out the obvious that I am not a moderator, so I just saved you the trouble...

You may have violated Rule #1 and #4
The following types of messages are not permitted (posts which violate these rules will be removed without notice to you):

1. Messages containing personal attacks, slanderous material, and similar nonsense.
4. Off-topic posts. All posts should directly relate to the broadcasting industry.

As always thank you for your time
 
Heart Attack Time Folks

Ok Folks, time for me to come to Davids defence.
I don't think he asked the question as a Dis of
the Cleveland area. Although the whole discussion
seems to have leaned in that direction.
I certainly did not take it as such. As we all
know all cities/areas have their god and bad,
their pluses and minuses. we each have to look
at that and decide wether we want to stay or go.
If we want to go there or somewhere else.
To me Clevelands big plus (as in most places) is
it's people. Granted there are lots to do there,
but there are lats to do everywhere.
A good example is California. I have always
thought of Calif. as the granola state. What aint
fruit and nuts is flakes. But on my last trip out
I went to San Fran on business and met lots of
rally wonderful people, and I fell in love with
the town. People really make anyplace specail.
Of course Calif. is still nuts. Where else but
San Francisco can you ride on a moving vehicle with
your butt hangning out where it might get hit by a car
door and not only not get a ticket but they charge you
four bucks to do it.
Oh and you all know you've thought about moving south
when we are up to our wazoo's in snow.

Mike Dane
 
Re: (but you didn't reply to my post below!)

> > Nope. It's not my idea of a nice place.
>
>
> YOU have DODGED the question again!! David, you should be
> in politics, not radio!! You are Spinmaster Supremo!

Cleveland, Denver, Sacramento and Cincy are about the same size. The annual billings in each are $129 million, $205 million, $149 million and $139 million.

This alone raises the question of "what is wrong with Cleveland as a radio market of comparable size?" Add the fact that historic and projected revenue gowth is no better than the rate of inflation. Stagnant.

> Again you let your personal feelings trump your logic in
> responding with a personal attack that was meant for one
> person only but it really turned out to be a personal insult
> to anyone who calls the Cleveland area home even though its
> obvious you know what you did and you knew you could get
> away with it!

It is my opinion that Cleveland is a lagging radio market, precisely because of the factors mentioned. Cause and effect.

> I would guess that there are FEW here who can look at this
> dialogue OBJECTIVELY and agree with your technique. Getting
> a Mea Culpa from you is like winning the lottery I guess. I
> enjoy reading your posts but why don't you be a Big Man and
> apologize for what you did? Yes, I am calling you out on
> this for all visitors here to see.......
> A reprise of what I posted below:
>
> WHAT does any of that have to do with radio??

Last time: Cleveland is a zero growth market, in population, in CSI per household, in radio billings, and this is caused by the general economic stagnation of the area and the city.
 
Re: Mistaken, period.

> The Cleveland/Akron area is really a nice place because of
> the people and some of the things here, but it is slowly
> dying. Akron is not the town I grew up in by a long shot
> and that saddens me.

It's kind of funny in this context that Clevelanders always used Akron as an example of how much better Cleveland was...

> Next time you hear "My Town is Gone" by Chrissy Hynde think
> Akron.

Is it really that bad? SOme of the things that are good about those areas have to do with the affordability of housing if one has a reasonable job and the stability of the poulation. Contrast that with aplace like Phoenix, where nobody seems to have been born there... which makes for a kind of impersonal, unattached environment.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom