New LA Country station rumor

[briancraig]

Most of your rebuttal to my previous post was well thought out and I have no facts to dispute what you said. However, there are a few points where I respectfully disagree:

"Music tastes are formed in early adolescence."

That is somewhat true. However, country has a long history of converting listeners. When country radio first started becoming a legitimate format, it attracted large numbers of people who previously listened to MOR. During the country boom of the early 1990s, countless articles in the trades discussed how former top 40 listeners were switching to country as they became adults.

I know lots of people who previously listened to CHR, but don't like hip hop or rhythmic music or the more extreme forms of modern rock and now prefer country.

"Jew" is not a nationality."

I did not say they were a nationality. I said they were an ethnic group that in years past usually were not considered country fans.

The World Book Encyclopedia when discussing the 5 ethnic groups that settled New York City (Irish, Italian, Jewish, black and Puerto Rican) states: "Jews come from many countries. But they are considered an ethnic group because most of them live in Jewish neighborhoods and have similar religious and social beliefs."

"I can't believe that you posted that having a "white" audience was superior... that is a wrong fact, and a racist, bigoted way of thinking. Shame on you."

Nowhere did I say the "white" audience was superior. Why would you jump to this conclusion and start shaming me and implying that I am making racist comments.

Am I a sexist, if I try and sale a light AC based on having female listeners. Am I a racist if I'm promoting a rhythm and blues concert and I buy time on an Urban AC because I know they have an adult black audience. Studies show that "white" people like baseball more than "black" people. Am I a racist if I market my minor league baseball team to a white audience?

I know of several stations in Southern markets that brag about how they are the #1 non-ethnic station. We all know that is code for "non black."

Would you not agree that a #1 mainstream AC station will normally outbill a #1 urban AC or #1 Spanish language station.


"In any case, KZLA indexed no better on home ownership and income than KRCD in Fall of last year, so your point is simply wrong."

What does this have to do with my point? By stating that country listeners have a high rate of home ownership does not in anyway imply that people with other musical preferences don't own homes

"Hispanics and Blacks don't have children? There are no "middle class" Hispanics, Asians, Blacks, armenians, etc?"

See above, by stating that KZLA listeners were middle class was not implying that other demographic groups were not.

I'm real sorry that you thought my post was bigoted in anyway. I incorrectly assumed that most of the readers and posters on this board were adults who could discuss marketing, demographics, musical tastes etc. without jumping to conclusions about the intent of the poster.

 

[OldGringo]

Most of your rebuttal to my previous post was well thought out and I have no facts to dispute what you said. However, there are a few points where I respectfully disagree:

"Music tastes are formed in early adolescence."

That is somewhat true. However, country has a long history of converting listeners. When country radio first started becoming a legitimate format, it attracted large numbers of people who previously listened to MOR. During the country boom of the early 1990s, countless articles in the trades discussed how former top 40 listeners were switching to country as they became adults.

Country and rock n' roll are related. A percentage of pop listeners will grow into country, especially in a state or market where there is a lifestyle. Not in LA.

I know lots of people who previously listened to CHR, but don't like hip hop or rhythmic music or the more extreme forms of modern rock and now prefer country.

Country listeners have, in the past, had the greatest audience sharing with CHR oldies. This is because a lot of more modern country is very similar to old Top 40 songs.

But most immigrants come without a taste for US CHR, either. So there is no transition point.

"Jew" is not a nationality."

I did not say they were a nationality. I said they were an ethnic group that in years past usually were not considered country fans.

They are, as far as radio, just Germans or Argentines or Mexicans or Spaniards or Ethiopians. There is nothing on the "ethnic" side of being Jewish that makes that group more or less interested in Country when they come to the USA.

The World Book Encyclopedia when discussing the 5 ethnic groups that settled New York City (Irish, Italian, Jewish, black and Puerto Rican) states: "Jews come from many countries. But they are considered an ethnic group because most of them live in Jewish neighborhoods and have similar religious and social beliefs."

But not musical tastes, which were formed wherever they grew up. This is about music, not cuisine or customs.

"I can't believe that you posted that having a "white" audience was superior... that is a wrong fact, and a racist, bigoted way of thinking. Shame on you."

Nowhere did I say the "white" audience was superior. Why would you jump to this conclusion and start shaming me and implying that I am making racist comments.

It was a clear message... you used the term white, and in doing so you indicated that whiteness was a characteristic advertisers looked for. They don't. They know better. So should you.

Am I a sexist, if I try and sale a light AC based on having female listeners. Am I a racist if I'm promoting a rhythm and blues concert and I buy time on an Urban AC because I know they have an adult black audience. Studies show that "white" people like baseball more than "black" people. Am I a racist if I market my minor league baseball team to a white audience?

You put together a prototype you said was a desirable quality to advertisers... white homeowners with children. Leave off the"white" and the statement is OK:

I know of several stations in Southern markets that brag about how they are the #1 non-ethnic station. We all know that is code for "non black."

I think that is absurd, and most advertisers see right through it... a way to skip the fact that the staiton is #6 instead of #1.

Would you not agree that a #1 mainstream AC station will normally outbill a #1 urban AC or #1 Spanish language station.

In LA, yes, for the moment. But that is changing. In Houston, the top biller is Spanish, and the highest power ratio cluster is Hispanic targeted. Urbans are, when well managed, just as salable as "white" targeted stations and have comparable power ratios, like in Chicago.

The biggest limitation on Spanish langauge billing is that many cl9ients do not do Spanish creative yet, becasue their agencies do n ot understand it.

Spanish staitons will bill at different levels based on format... there areliterally more formats possible in Spanish than in Englsh... and plenty of different ones in LA, with different advertiser appeal.

"In any case, KZLA indexed no better on home ownership and income than KRCD in Fall of last year, so your point is simply wrong."

What does this have to do with my point? By stating that country listeners have a high rate of home ownership does not in anyway imply that people with other musical preferences don't own homes

Then why stress the uniqueness of white homeowners if all staitons have lots of home owners in the audience?

"Hispanics and Blacks don't have children? There are no "middle class" Hispanics, Asians, Blacks, armenians, etc?"

See above, by stating that KZLA listeners were middle class was not implying that other demographic groups were not.

Then your point of uniquness fails on all tests.

 

[briancraig]

--It was a clear message... you used the term white, and in doing so you indicated that whiteness was a characteristic advertisers looked for. They don't. They know better. So should you.--

Again, if I'm advertising baseball why wouldn't I want to reach mainly white people. If I'm promoting an Alejandro Sanz concert, wouldn't I want to reach Hispanics. If I own a hockey team, I'm not advertising on the urban stations. This does not make one racist, it is just a marketing fact.

Pointing out that some products or services might be mainly consumed by white people is not racist.

Why does Arbitron show ethnic cume in the printed book if this is unimportant?

 

[OldGringo]

--It was a clear message... you used the term white, and in doing so you indicated that whiteness was a characteristic advertisers looked for. They don't. They know better. So should you.--

Again, if I'm advertising baseball why wouldn't I want to reach mainly white people.

No, you would not. You would want people of every culture and ethnicity. Baseball is an American sport, not a white sport. It's about who likes the sport in this case.

If I'm promoting an Alejandro Sanz concert, wouldn't I want to reach Hispanics.

You are probaby would need to do more than that... it is hard to get 100 people to one of his concerts.

Seriously, you would advertise Sanz' concert on a station that plays Sanz, and that means just two stations in LA... KLVE and KSSE, both of which also happen to be in Spanish. It's about who likes the music, in this case.

If I own a hockey team, I'm not advertising on the urban stations. This does not make one racist, it is just a marketing fact.

The area hockey teams have tried to market to Hispanics and Blacks. Generally, they will market on stations that get lots of men in the ages that go to hockey games.

Pointing out that some products or services might be mainly consumed by white people is not racist.

That is not what you did. You mentiuoned the desirability of a white audience in the context of saying they were exclusive. As if only "that kind of white" was middle class, had a family, had a home. And that is not true.

Why does Arbitron show ethnic cume in the printed book if this is unimportant?

There is no printed book.

In Maximiser, you can rank anything by any of the stratification variables, including culture (hHspanic) or race (Black) or age or sex.

It is true that there are Black hair care products and you would not advertise them on a station with no Blacks. Or Hispanic food items you would not advertise on stations with few Hispanics. But that was not my point. You included "white" in a list of "unique" qualities that the KZLA or Country listener presented, and all listener groups contain middle class, home owning families with kids. The introduction of "white" is doubly wrong, becaue most Hispanics are "white" also.

 

[briancraig]

"There is no printed book."

There was a printed Arbitron book for each market from 1965 to at least the Spring of 2005.

The main point of my post was that country music needs to grow its audience especially toward the children and grandchildren of Hispanic, Russian, Armenian immigrants etc.

My secondary point was that a country station programmed correctly should deliver a salable audience even in Southern California.

Implying that someone's posts are racist or bigoted is very rude, especially when your user name is OldGringo.

 

[pbf1]

"There is no printed book."

There was a printed Arbitron book for each market from 1965 to at least the Spring of 2005.

It's all eBooks now.

 

[OldGringo]

A distinction without difference.

The ratings have been called "the book" for decades, and Old Racist uses the fact that the book is now electronic, rather than paper, just to put people down and show off his hipness.

A rather lame act.

The eBook has changed significantly the way the "book" is presented, including very different tables and such.

In the industry (which you are not part of), we did not exclusively call the paper book "the book" and have not for well over a decade since Maximiser was introduced. We call the full data "the book" and, mostly, get it from Max. Arbitron quit issuing a paper book because nobody used it. In fact, we seldom opened the box of printed books as they were of no value.

The eBook is called the "eBook" by all. Nobody would call it "the book" as it is new, and "the book" has come to mean the collection of data issued each quarter, not a specific format.

If you are unfamiliar with Maximiser (correctly written "Maximi$er") there is a section on Arbitron.com where you can see what it encompasses. It is a downloadable data file that produces thousands and thousands of different reports as specified by the user... even doing 2, 3, 4 and 5 book averages, and hourly rankers, coustom dayparts, etc.

Even better is the PPM data and application set, where you can not get weekly fully reliable data every monday for the PPM test market.

 

[OldGringo]

"There is no printed book."

There was a printed Arbitron book for each market from 1965 to at least the Spring of 2005.

Fall of 2005 was the end of the printed book. The eBook, for whatever it is worth, replaced it in Winter, 2006 in all markets. Nobody really uses that, either, since it is very limited compared to Maximi$er

The main point of my post was that country music needs to grow its audience especially toward the children and grandchildren of Hispanic, Russian, Armenian immigrants etc.

This will happen, if it can happen, with the second, or, most probably, third generation. First generationn immigrants seldom change music tastes unless they come to the US at a very early age, under 12. Second generation is influenced by peer groups and the family, so in LA, that means the "old country" music of the parents and the music listened to by kids from the school they go to. It is very unlikely that co8untry has any presence at LA schools, as it is definitely not cool in LA.

So, In LA, the chances of country growing with the existing population is very low. More likely, it will decrease as the country lifestyle group is leaving LA for either other states or peripheral areas like the IE and Ventura County or Bakersfield where country is very viable, still.

My secondary point was that a country station programmed correctly should deliver a salable audience even in Southern California.

KZLA went out with a [EDIT] for some time. There is a very small cume group for the format, so it can not do much better, no matter how much is spent.

Implying that someone's posts are racist or bigoted is very rude, especially when your user name is OldGringo.

I am calling <myself> a gringo. It it were offensive, would I apply the name (which comes from a movie you obviously missed) to myself? I am not calling you a gringo, but, rather, myself.

[EDIT-posting of Arbitron ratings represents unauthorized use of copyrighted content. For future reference, please read radio-info's TOS.]

 

[OldGringo]

"The book" = "the ratings."

You finally got that one right... "The book is out" means that the numbers are available in some form or fashion.

XEPRS is in San Diego.

Why does Arbitron list it in <brackets> which is what they do for staitons that are not located in the MSA of a particular book?

A board op is a board op, and Recuerdo employs them.

There are none at Recuerdo. We have talent assitants, but the job classifications that must be complied with do not have that term, so we use the best available term for someone who is in the studio who is not the talent. What would you do? We do not, in fact, have "real" board ops in the Recuerdo network, but nearly all shows have studio assistants. "studio assistant" is not in the category classifications. Similarly, in another example, the FCC in its reports has no classification for a computer technician or MIS person, as these are new jobs. So we all call them engineers... as the term is close enough.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

my eyes are glazing over ............

 

[briancraig]

---Second generation is influenced by peer groups and the family, so in LA, that means the "old country" music of the parents and the music listened to by kids from the school they go to. It is very unlikely that co8untry has any presence at LA schools, as it is definitely not cool in LA.---


Don't you think most people become country fans as adults? That may have changed some, but it was certainly the case when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s.

Growing up in Memphis, I could count on one hand people in my peer group while I was in school who were country music listeners. However, the country station is currently number one among people my age.

I just don't believe your assertion that music taste freezes in high school.

 

[Surfer]

OK, I've had enough! If you want to argue the veracity of racism, there is a board called "Take it Outside" where you can do as you please. May I suggest that if this thread is to continue in it's original intent you TAKE IT OUTSIDE! If, however, you want to discuss whether we will have a new country station or not, then this would be the appropriate place. Bottom line should always be...CAN THE STATION MAKE MONEY WITH THE FORMAT? If they can, then a station should flip. Frankly I think any station can make money if they want to cut corners. If they want to do it right, they'll need to spend some cash. I believe a country station could do very well in LA if it's marketed well. That is a must! If that's not done right, no station will ever make the kind of money it can. Radio, really, is no longer about ratings, it's about money. It's bottom line time, baby! Now, that's my humble opinion...ought to be yours! ;D

 

[OldGringo]

---Second generation is influenced by peer groups and the family, so in LA, that means the "old country" music of the parents and the music listened to by kids from the school they go to. It is very unlikely that co8untry has any presence at LA schools, as it is definitely not cool in LA.---


Don't you think most people become country fans as adults? That may have changed some, but it was certainly the case when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s.

No, I think they had the roots for liking it as kids. Top 40 and pop music, but in a market that had a country lifestyle and where country was widely present. It's been proven through many, many studies that base music taste forms in early adolesence so everything later is a progression of that.

Growing up in Memphis, I could count on one hand people in my peer group while I was in school who were country music listeners. However, the country station is currently number one among people my age.

But it only accounts for less than 10% of listening. 90% do not listen. The real issue though is that you probably grew up on CHR / Top 40. Oldies, in the 90's, was the highest sharing format with country. So there is an affinity between Top 40 and country, and an easy transition in markets with a country lifestyle.

I just don't believe your assertion that music taste freezes in high school.

Cultural anthropologists and sociologists have studied this to death. Everything you like after about age 14 to 15 is based on what you liked and were exposed to in the years of early adolescence. You can google the topic. It is pretty interesting.

This does not mean that you will like the same music. The average Top 40 fan went either to oldies, or to hotter AC and then to soft AC as they matured... or to country if there was a country presence, such as in the home where parents listened.

I'll give you anecdotally my own case. I was mostly in Latin America or listening to Latin American radio stations at the formative age. I do not enjoy any kind of English music except mainstream pop so rock, country, r&b, etc., are just aggravating noise to me. However, I listened to Spanish language pop staitons that also played American top 40 songs so I would actually like the Backstreets and Britney and Madonna more than Lynard Skynard or Merle or some Alternative group. And I love reggaetón, as it is based in Latin Tropical (salsa, Panameñan montunita, etc) so I have an affinity for it.

LA has very little country lifestyle, very few homes where country is played, so the genre has no chance of growing.

 

[OldGringo]

OK, I've had enough! If you want to argue the veracity of racism, there is a board called "Take it Outside" where you can do as you please. May I suggest that if this thread is to continue in it's original intent you TAKE IT OUTSIDE! If, however, you want to discuss whether we will have a new country station or not, then this would be the appropriate place. Bottom line should always be...CAN THE STATION MAKE MONEY WITH THE FORMAT? If they can, then a station should flip. Frankly I think any station can make money if they want to cut corners. If they want to do it right, they'll need to spend some cash. I believe a country station could do very well in LA if it's marketed well. That is a must! If that's not done right, no station will ever make the kind of money it can. Radio, really, is no longer about ratings, it's about money. It's bottom line time, baby! Now, that's my humble opinion...ought to be yours! ;D

From the 1950's through the last study in 1996, 50% of American radio stations did NOT make money. That was one of the main resons for consolidation. Stations that make no money serve no listeners well.

And radio, since the 1920's, has been about making money. That is why most of the first stations that survived were owned by manufacturers of radios (like Crosley, Westinghouse, GE) or insurance companies or department stores or makers of batteries for radios or somesuch or even car dealers (Like Earle C. Anthony)... and they followed the ocmmercial model of their parent, which was to make money.

The fact is that the country core is shrinking in LA as the market becomes more and more ethnic / immigrant... it will be 75% ethnic / immigrant by 2010 and that leaves very little for country to feed on.

 

[OldGringo]

David Gleason = consider the source.

XEPRS, San Diego's fourth-highest billing station, home of the Padres, is not in the San Diego market.

One of Mobile's highest billing stations is actually in the Pensacola market. There are examples of this all over America, although the existence of a border makes the san Diego one more clear.

XEPRS competes for revenue and audience in the SD market. That does not put it in that market. It's a rimshot.

KFI is often top 10 in the market. It does not sell in SD, but it competes for audience. So that means, I guess, that KFI is now in San Diego. But wait. It is #2 in Riverside / San Berdoo. So it most be in the IE market. Oh, no. It is often top 10 in Ventura. So I guess it moved there.

KFI is an LA station with ratings in several other markets. It is still in LA: XEPRS is a Tijuana market staiton with ratings in San Diego. It is still a Tijuana market station.

"White" is racist.

Funny, but that is not true. That is how the US Census classifies all "whites" and a majority of Hispanics.

 

[zumahans]

Yup, same old David Eduardo, as full of excrement as ever.

KFI is not analogous. Sorry. Studios are not in Riverside.

Mobile and Pensacola?

Do they have country stations there, or have they been overrun by immigrants too? I mean, nothing against the immigrants, bienvenidos, willkomen, etc. But has country music been edged off the format there? Yet?

 

[OldGringo]

KFI is not analogous. Sorry. Studios are not in Riverside.

KLYY is a Riverside station with studios in Santa Monica. It is still a Riverside station.

 

[zumahans]

With no audience in Santa Monica. Totally irrelevant.

Sad, sad, clutching at straws.

 

[OldGringo]

With no audience in Santa Monica. Totally irrelevant.

Sad, sad, clutching at straws.

Not much audience, but tied for 33rd in the zone.

In any case, it shows that the location of studios does not determine the market a station is in. KLYY remains a Riverside station, serving LA also, just as all the "X" stations are still Tijuana (market) stations, although many are trying to serve the adjoining and separate metro of San Diego.

I fully accept that there are about a dozen "X"es that principally program to and sell in San Diego. But they are not "in" SD nor are they licensed to SD. They are out of market stations, like KLYY, that have enough signal in another market to make the effort potentially rewarding.

 

[zumahans]

----->" I fully accept that there are about a dozen "X"es that principally program to and sell in San Diego. But they are not "in" SD nor are they licensed to SD.

Well, that's one baby step towards reality.

"Fox 6 San Diego" is not in San Diego. Amazing.