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[Tom_Ray]

My guess would be that AM can never sound QUITE as good as the FM system, because AM stations will still be 10khz apart, vs. the 200khz for FM stations! FM will ALWAYS have more available bandwidth, whether there's an analog component or not. And there WILL be analog for the rest of most of our lives. These transitions take a long, long time.

>>>>> It took something like 20-25 years for FM Stereo and color television to become truly mainstream. I fully expect to be in a box on the shelf when analog AM goes away.

Tom Ray

 

[SML]

Hi Tom,
Out here on the left coast, KGO in San Francisco has an interesting problem with HD. They run the HD from 9:00 AM to 4:00 PM only, due to the problem with IFB to both the traffic reporters and live actualities in the field. They can't monitor in real time. KCBS gave up HD for the present until they figure out a solution to this same problem.
That said, KGO's HD audio quality is just not that great. The high frequency pre-emphasis at 7 to 8 khz is irritating to my ears after a short while. And this is the same on all the HD AM audio on other bay area stations. I was in the LA area last week and heard the same thing. The background noise is missing, and that is good, but in some ways, the lack of full frequency response is easier to take when listening in narrow-band mono. I really notice the lack of punch in the audio, either from the low bit rate, or the difference in audio processing between analog and digital.
Oddly enough, it was easier to listen with the volume reduced or at least the treble control reduced on my JVC HD car radio. Go figure!
I'm not sure this is a problem that can be solved, but a 36 kbps HD stream would probably sound much better than what is out there now.
So I'll be driving around out here when the HD gets running at night, and I'll be listening for the difference. I'll be happy to report what I hear out this way, where the channels are bit less crowded than the NE USA.

 

[wgliradio]

In other words, to answer your question, DXers deserve zero attention. And their attitude towards radio has changed so much that it makes me ashamed to have been a DXer for 45 years (the number of years I was a member of the National Radio Club, as well as several others).

Just like people over 55. They also deserve zero attention... not worthy of radio. Also, anyone who owns a radio with a frequency response that is not down 20dB at 5k needs to be ignored as well. Those who have cassette stereos in their cars will no longer be able to receive AM and FM broadcasts. They are not good enough. Anyone using a tube radio must turn it in to the local landfill and purchase a new radio

Eduardoism. Embrace it. If you don't agree with him, you make sense. If you agree with him, continue ruining (running) radio.

 

[wgliradio]

And there WILL be analog for the rest of most of our lives.

Amen to that

 

[davideduardo]

In other words, to answer your question, DXers deserve zero attention.

Just like people over 55. They also deserve zero attention... not worthy of radio.

Unlike the few thousand DXeres nationally, there are millions of these folks. But until advertisers put money towards selling to them, radio can not program specifically to them; radio is a service industry and we serve both listeners and advertisers. If one or the other is not there, we can not exist.

Also, anyone who owns a radio with a frequency response that is not down 20dB at 5k needs to be ignored as well. Those who have cassette stereos in their cars will no longer be able to receive AM and FM broadcasts. They are not good enough. Anyone using a tube radio must turn it in to the local landfill and purchase a new radio

This is the "greatest good for greatest number of persons" concept. The fact that some people still had buggys did not slow down the development of highways. Stations always do what the majority of listeners want, not what a tiny mainority desire.

 

[wgliradio]

Unlike the few thousand DXeres nationally, there are millions of these folks. But until advertisers put money towards selling to them, radio can not program specifically to them; radio is a service industry and we serve both listeners and advertisers. If one or the other is not there, we can not exist.

David Eduardo: Can't, won't, couldn't. It's all about excluding people, which is OK. But if you figure we start at 12+, 34 years of people's lives are being ignored by Mr. 25-54 if you figure people to age 75.

 

[davideduardo]

Unlike the few thousand DXeres nationally, there are millions of these folks. But until advertisers put money towards selling to them, radio can not program specifically to them; radio is a service industry and we serve both listeners and advertisers. If one or the other is not there, we can not exist.

David Eduardo: Can't, won't, couldn't. It's all about excluding people, which is OK. But if you figure we start at 12+, 34 years of people's lives are being ignored by Mr. 25-54 if you figure people to age 75.

The "can't" comes from ad agency clients, and is an issue radio as an industry can't control and, specifically, individual stations in specific formats can't control.

Radio, as I said, has to please advertisers in order to be able to please listener groups. If advertisers exclude teens and 55+ from radio buys (the actual buy demos are 18-54 or some subset) radio can't provide a service to those listeners as there is no revenue to sustain such an effort.

I'm not ignoring the "outside of 18-54" demos; I am just stating what advertisers in transactional markets will and will not buy.

 

[wgliradio]

You claim to have all this wonderful experience and influence over the last 45+ - 50 years, but are so handicapped by this? Are you too lazy to try, or is it just easier to divide up the small piece of pie and go home knowing you'll be cashing in your chips and leaving the next generation trying to make a living in this business with a shell.

 

[davideduardo]

You claim to have all this wonderful experience and influence over the last 45+ - 50 years, but are so handicapped by this? Are you too lazy to try, or is it just easier to divide up the small piece of pie and go home knowing you'll be cashing in your chips and leaving the next generation trying to make a living in this business with a shell.

What do you want me (and that "me" actually encompasses all stations dependent on agency business) to do?

The revenue pie at the agency level is made up of pieces, broad to very narrow (just "25-54 adults" to "Hispanic Second generation females 24-44"), in the 18 to 54 year age spread. Agencies seldom buy radio anything under 17 or over 55 per the specifications of the client. Save rare circumstances, like designing a promotion, station personnel don't have any contact with the client. Contacting an agency client is generally a sure way to never get any buy out of an agency again, as it messes with the agency-client relationship and the client hired an agency specifically to not have to be involved in media selection and media sales calls as well as to get the best creative and strategic advice.

I'd like you to go, representing an oldies station in one market, to the marketing department of P&G to tell them that all their market research is wrong, their agency is wrong and that they should buy spots on your station.

 

[wgliradio]

Give me the chance and I will.

 

[davideduardo]

Give me the chance and I will.

That would make you the first radio seller ever to do that. P&G will not give media appointments, for a reason. They do nt buy media. Their agencies do.

 

[wgliradio]

Either way, those who continue to push the notion that you can only sell to younger demos can come to only one conclusion. Radio will continue to cater to a demo that doesn't care about using radio for music anymore. It is becoming the 2nd or 3rd option. And when you have multiple stations as 2nd and 3rd options.....

The demo that actually uses radio and respond to advertising , because they have had years of radio habits built into their daily routine and are more likely to use radio as a device for music over an MP3 player, that is what radio is ignoring.

Basically, radio is trying to sell sweaters to women in Miami and bikinis to men in Nome.

 

[SML]

I think Mr. Eduardo describes quite well the reason that radio is mostly irrelevant to those under 25, and maybe should be a warning to those same agencies who think they know the radio audience best. The agencies think they know best, despite any real evidence to the contrary.
Saul Levine said about as much, when he described his revenue on K-Mozart drying up because the agencies decided that the classical music demo was now too old and did not offer anything to make them stay with the format.
Commercial radio is not about the listeners, it's about agencies and operators trying to bring in the most revenue. Listeners are a tool in the book to that end. This has nothing to do with public service, or serving listeners.
I wonder what those same agencies will say now that Arbitron will include non-commercial radio in their published books. The agencies and commercial operators will finally get to see where the audience has gone.
And of course, to stay on topic, will HD radio help bring the listeners back or keep them? The tech has little to do with ratings, it's all about the programming. If the programming is still stuck in the same, "safe" for revenue, agency-driven (and tired) formula as before, even if it is free, HD won't save anyone.

 

[wgliradio]

I think Mr. Eduardo describes quite well the reason that radio is mostly irrelevant to those under 25, and maybe should be a warning to those same agencies who think they know the radio audience best. The agencies think they know best, despite any real evidence to the contrary.
Saul Levine said about as much, when he described his revenue on K-Mozart drying up because the agencies decided that the classical music demo was now too old and did not offer anything to make them stay with the format.
Commercial radio is not about the listeners, it's about agencies and operators trying to bring in the most revenue. Listeners are a tool in the book to that end. This has nothing to do with public service, or serving listeners.
I wonder what those same agencies will say now that Arbitron will include non-commercial radio in their published books. The agencies and commercial operators will finally get to see where the audience has gone.
And of course, to stay on topic, will HD radio help bring the listeners back or keep them? The tech has little to do with ratings, it's all about the programming. If the programming is still stuck in the same, "safe" for revenue, agency-driven (and tired) formula as before, even if it is free, HD won't save anyone.

Thank you. Very well written and accurate.

I understand what Eduardo is saying. I don't agree with it and I think it's lunacy that he agrees with it. He should know better than this.

As for HD, the people programming it are the same ones stuck in the rut. Where do we go? In major markets. there is lack of innovation. While it is not there *yet*, eventually when the ads come, so too will the safe, agency driven formulas. Then where will it be?

 

[clouseau]

Re: We need to move.

Hi. I'd like to propose that this discussion about demographics and programming continue here...

http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,73614.0.html

Fr the first time in a long time there is good discussion here and both topics got scrunched together.

Maybe the Mods could help with this. I'm sure there are many following both halves.

Thanks... Just an idea...

Clouseau

 

[davideduardo]

I think Mr. Eduardo describes quite well the reason that radio is mostly irrelevant to those under 25, and maybe should be a warning to those same agencies who think they know the radio audience best. The agencies think they know best, despite any real evidence to the contrary.

Irrespective of what you think agencies know or do not know, in the larger markets radio stations depend on agency buys and must meat theri terms and demos to be bought.

Of course, there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. It's called "ratings" and shows that around 92% of 18-24 use radio weekly. It does not matter how long they listen, in the ad buyer's mind, but, rather, how many are listening to each station when their campaign runs. Pricing is based on how many listeners there are, not how many are not there.

Saul Levine said about as much, when he described his revenue on K-Mozart drying up because the agencies decided that the classical music demo was now too old and did not offer anything to make them stay with the format.

Actually, the agencies said that they had no clients that wanted the 55+ demo specifically, and since that was where most of the audience on KMZT was, there were nearly no buys.

Commercial radio is not about the listeners, it's about agencies and operators trying to bring in the most revenue. Listeners are a tool in the book to that end. This has nothing to do with public service, or serving listeners.

Unless you serve listeners, you will not have any. Unless you have listeners in the ages advertisers want, a format can not remain on the air as revenue is what we pay the salaries, offices, transmitter sites, electric bills, ASCAP and so much else with. No listeners, no auudience. No audience in the right ages, no sales. Been that way in radio for about 80 years.

I wonder what those same agencies will say now that Arbitron will include non-commercial radio in their published books. The agencies and commercial operators will finally get to see where the audience has gone.

Agencies and stations have seen this for a decade and more. The Software we use to do rankers and such, and the agency version too, have shown non-coms for ages. It is just the Arbitrends that get published that do not show non-coms. In any case, there are no "books" any more, anyway.

And of course, to stay on topic, will HD radio help bring the listeners back or keep them? The tech has little to do with ratings, it's all about the programming. If the programming is still stuck in the same, "safe" for revenue, agency-driven (and tired) formula as before, even if it is free, HD won't save anyone.

Nearly all of America's radio stations have been commercial right back to the early 20's. And from the early 30's, there were ratings. And stations with more listeners make more than ones with few of them.

 

[davideduardo]

I understand what Eduardo is saying. I don't agree with it and I think it's lunacy that he agrees with it. He should know better than this.

You have probably heard that thing about having the wisdom to know what you can change and what you can not. Changing a major brand's marketing goals is not a thing that a few old-demo radio staiton's can do. There is no gain in trying, and a lot of productive time is lost in any attempt... not to mention that you really p--s off the agency in the middle by interferring with the agency client relationship.

Since those clients, through theri agencies, specify the target, the media can not change it. In many cases, the product, or the store decor, or the focus of a service, was designed for a specific demo. The pacaging, the portion size, the colors, the label, or whatever was designed based on consumer research that showed where the most active consumers are.

What you are suggesting is the same as trying to return to the US without a passport. "Well, I used to be able to do that" is not an excuse. The regulations now require one for any reentry, and whether you think it is fair is irrelevant... it is the way it is.

Every one of us who has sold for a major market radio staiton or group has, at some point in their career, thought it clever and so bright to call on an agency client direct. Once we did it, we were lucky if the agency just said, "don't ever try that again." But in most cases, we got cancellations for every piece of business we had from the agency for doing what in the buisness is considered totally unethical.

 

[wgliradio]

You have probably heard that thing about having the wisdom to know what you can change and what you can not.

The obvious answer is for agencies to use other forms of media other than radio to get their message across. If I were P&G, I know I wouldn't be wasting my time in a medium where the only audience I am reaching is one demo, fragmented between 15 stations and has the attention span of a gnat on speed... that is, those who still use radio and have not regulated it to the 2nd and 3rd choice for entertainment (after their MP3 player, the internet, a video game system, DVD player, TV etc...)

Picture this... a 27 year old.... just spent $200 on an IPOD, $400 on that nice new Alpine IDA-X001 Media Center (!!) stereo that interfaces with the IPOD... nice Rockford Fosgate subs... $200... all this time to upload music to the device and I'm going to listen to KLVE after all this.

Uhhh.. No. P&G... message... NOT HEARD.

But I guarantee that a radio station marketing to the 55 year old who's driving around with the stock radio, would have his/her radio tuned in and would hear that message LOUD AND CLEAR... since that station would be the ONLY station vying for THAT set of ears in the market. As the only station catering to THAT demo, I have probably a good rating (12+, 35-64) and a high TSL.

But since agencies won't buy that demo, what do we have?

Radio as a dying business model. Because I can tell you the next generation doesn't care. Anyone under 35 is proficient in an MP3 device and the younger you get, the further away you get from radio useage. Nobody is buying car stereos for AM.FM radios anymore. Nobody hooks up the antenna on the home stereo system.. do you think anyone USES the tuner on a Yamaha 5.1 stereo system?

If radio was so great, 100,000,000 IPODS would not have been sold, we would not NEED to be thinking about HD or worrying about alternative media. PEOPLE WOULD NOT BE LOOKING FOR IT! It's sad, but it's reality.

 

[davideduardo]

You have probably heard that thing about having the wisdom to know what you can change and what you can not.

The obvious answer is for agencies to use other forms of media other than radio to get their message across. If I were P&G, I know I wouldn't be wasting my time in a medium where the only audience I am reaching is one demo, fragmented between 15 stations and has the attention span of a gnat on speed... that is, those who still use radio and have not regulated it to the 2nd and 3rd choice for entertainment (after their MP3 player, the internet, a video game system, DVD player, TV etc...)

You are missing the point that practically all agency clients specify the demos for their campaigns based on consumer data obtained from their own marketing department's research... research which may have gone back to the design of the product or service, and which also determines where advertising is effective. They seldom, except for products that sepcifically appeal to older consumers, ask for 55+ in any medium, not just radio.

Radio delivers 55+ about as well as under-55, with many formats that are still on the air, like country, news / talk, oldies, and AC having significant 55+ audiences; usage of radio by 55+ is comparable to the under 55 demo sets, too.

Only part of the consideration in a buy is the age; the other is what audience segment buys the most with the least advertising. This is why beers do not specify any female demos, and look mostly at 21-44 or even 21-34 male delivery alone. The amount of sales generated in the beer category against women or older men is significantly lower than in the core target, because the core buys and consumes more and the ROI on advertising against any other demo is poor or non-existent.

Picture this... a 27 year old.... just spent $200 on an IPOD, $400 on that nice new Alpine IDA-X001 Media Center (!!) stereo that interfaces with the IPOD... nice Rockford Fosgate subs... $200... all this time to upload music to the device and I'm going to listen to KLVE after all this.

Hmm. In Spring of 1997, 1.7 million was the average number of persons using radio in LA. Today, it is 1.68 million. In 1997, 95.1% of Angelinos listened to radio in a given week, today it is 94.7%. Each person listened an average of 22:45 hours a week, and in Winter, 2007 it was 20:45. 1997 was prior to iPods, most of the advanced video gaming, HDTV, satellite, the wide acceptance of the Internet etc.

The usage today of radio is nearly flat in reach (people who use radio, 12 to death) and only off about 8% in the amount of use, despite all those things you describe. Given the competiton for listening, viewing and entertainment sources in general, that is amazingly good for a medium that is nearly 90 years old.

And, specifically thinking of KLVE, which on a 4-book average is the #1 station in LA, the reason people listen, irrespective of their personal music collections, is that KLVE is more than just a juke box with an antenna. There is entertainment, a morning show with news and traffic and weather and interesting feature, there are artist specials, specialty shows, and a blend of music that is hard for a consumer to match on an iPod.

Uhhh.. No. P&G... message... NOT HEARD.

The issue is that for most P&G products the advertiser has no interest in reaching 55+ because they do not make a profit on that demo. These advertisers specifically limit the ages to exclude 55+. Were they to suddenly have an epiphany and decide that 55+ is highly desirable as a target, a number of stations would go after that target. So far, that is not happening. Could it? Sure, as boomers age, and if they are "convincable" consumers over 55, advertisers will follow the money. But for the moment, there is no revenue for a station to only go after 55+.

But I guarantee that a radio station marketing to the 55 year old who's driving around with the stock radio, would have his/her radio tuned in and would hear that message LOUD AND CLEAR... since that station would be the ONLY station vying for THAT set of ears in the market. As the only station catering to THAT demo, I have probably a good rating (12+, 35-64) and a high TSL.

WDUV in Tampa is almost 100% 55+ with a traditional EZ / standards format. It is #1 12+, but 14th in billings. It's source of revenue is almost entirely the group of direct accounts catering to seniors in the Tampa Bay area; no full market FM bills less. The problem, again, is that there are not enough advertisers interested in this market segment, even in one of the largest retirement areas in the nation.

And again, there are plenty of stations that straddle the 55 barrier... news talk is typically half under, half older. If anyone wanted to reach 55+, they have many options.

But since agencies won't buy that demo, what do we have?

Agencies only buy what the client asks for. Don't blame the agency.

Radio as a dying business model.

It's a really slow death... as I showed with the today vs. 1997 figures. In other words, we will have radio for longer than you think.

Because I can tell you the next generation doesn't care. Anyone under 35 is proficient in an MP3 device and the younger you get, the further away you get from radio useage. Nobody is buying car stereos for AM.FM radios anymore. Nobody hooks up the antenna on the home stereo system.. do you think anyone USES the tuner on a Yamaha 5.1 stereo system?

Most people do not have big home stereos anyway... they have bedside clock radios, kitchen radios, boom boxes, etc. And it is pretty conclusively seen that as people move out of the 12-21 demo, they have less time to spend programming and downloading and use radio more and more. In '97, 96% of 18-34's used radio, and today it is 95%. Even teens... 96% in '97 and 92.4% now (a loss? Sure... but not an abandonment)

If radio was so great, 100,000,000 IPODS would not have been sold, we would not NEED to be thinking about HD or worrying about alternative media. PEOPLE WOULD NOT BE LOOKING FOR IT! It's sad, but it's reality.

If radio were so great, every home would not have had a record player. If radio were so great, every home would not have a TV. If radio were so great, every home would not have multiple cassette players. If radio were so great, every home would not have CD players, even in the clock radio!

Memo to Chicken Little: The sky is not falling.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I use my father in law as an example. He has nerve damage from an on the job accident that resulted in his requiring rather extensive digitally controlled hearing aids. He has a hell of a time listening to AM radio in particular - he can't fully understand what is being said. And his favorite station is an AM talker (interestingly, he can understand FM stations quite well). The station went HD, so I got him an HD radio. This is the first time in ages he can understand the programming - I think it has something to do with the increased audio bandwidth and the sybillance sounds. And with the music bumpers and the amount of Broadway show spots WOR has, it really sounds much better than regular AM. RE the streaming quality - that is partially dependent on how the HD processing is set up (you need to be careful processing for codecs) and is a result of the data errors in the HD signal. One group I know has developed their own method of adjusting the HD equipment, and I think they are incorrect. they claim they can better determine data errors in the far field rather than measured at the transmitter monitor port. These stations tend to sound "streamy" to me.

Yet, I haven't experienced what you have described. I've put numerous radios on the bench, and if they don't cut off at 3.5-4K, the distortion figures are so high I find them unlistenable. Most of the radios I've tested have been car radios.

Thank you for your prompt and insightful responses.

I do have additional comments -I have heard HD-AM three times, now, on three different radios. ALL of the local stations I have heard sound like medium to high bandwidth streaming. I get listener fatigue quickly - I really dislike the group delay / phase change type of artifacts. Are ALL of the local stations implementing HD poorly, or is this sound indicative of the best AM HD can do?

The other comment I have is that most car radios, seem to be equalized for talk, and that would be a source of bandwidth limitation. I am very concerned that the sample of radios tested by Ibiquity Engineers represented a cross section of obsolete reference designs. While it may have possible for them, 5 years ago, to get a majority of radios using the old "3 IF can" reference design - that design is on its way out FAST. Having a daughter growing up listening to AM (Radio Disney) gave me quite a few radios to analyzed - ALL using the new reference design. One horrendous ceramic filter on AM, wide as a barn door. Poor tuning mechanism. She's given up on Radio Disney because it sounds so bad, and made the transition to top-40 FM. Given the sound of our local Disney affiliate, I can't say I blame her. Yet when we pull it up on cable (stereo wideband), she likes it as much as ever. That's a bit of a tangent - my point is the transition of ALL new radio designs to the minimal component approach is inevitable. It is cheap. It is small. It is much more reliable. It eliminates adjustment at the factory. It is even capable of decent performance - as my analysis of my daughter's "Olsen Twin" boom box showed. All it took was a ferrite bar and decent AM ceramic, and it turned into a DX machine. It was decent on nearby cities before that - all it took was a 3 inch AM ferrite and a little better AM ceramic filter. The IC can give good performance, it can give lousy performance. But the assumption that all AM radios are narrowband is false. They are extremely wide band, and it has nothing to do with a desire for "high fidelity sound". It is cheapness on the part of manufacturers. As time goes on - more and more radios will be made like this. And ALL of them will be susceptible to HD AM self jamming.

In fact, the reference designs I saw that still used a few recognizable components seem to be out. Linear technology has a single IC, wire in for FM, a PC board loop for AM, power, and microcontroller - DONE. NO tuning cap, NO AM ferrite, NO ceramic filters, etc. That is likely to even have wider bandwidth than the present reference designs. It allows radios to be put anywhere there is 16 square millimeters for the single chip.

So my question remains - slightly altered - is there anything that can be done to eliminate the 10 to 15 kHz noise that comes booming through the tiny speakers / headphones? And what about the problem with requiring exact tuning to center frequency. It doesn't take much mistuning to hear a lot of noise from the 5 to 10 kHz sidebands, which become amplitude modulated in a hurry when you are off center?