Nice to see the debate in here.

[Renegade_X]

Just a few thoughts on the heated debate/catfight below. No doubt it's pissed the moderator off, but it's at least proof that there is some passion amongst the few fans that still exist in this genre.

For the few of you that mailed me and accuse me of being a hater to the scene. I am not a hater. I am the opposite. I had a tremendous passion for this scene, I'm sure I always will...but I will never have a passion for the self congradulatory attitude that seems so prominent in this subculture.

Our music is on life support. No one gives a damn about it. It's nearly impossible to sell it and the number of commercial terrestial FM stations playing dance is close to number ZERO. Whatever your opinions on what are "good" songs, they're really immaterial. From the business perspective this music is a non-issue (and my apologies to Robbins, again, not slag at what you do).

When I posted that Energy in AZ had no ratings, it wasn't a slag on the station. Not a slag at Perry, Oaks or anyone for that matter. I made it clear that I believe the station has no ratings because....the product (music) it has to play is piss poor. It's hard to gather numbers when you're marketing mediocre product to a tiny market with 1000000 other choices.

I hope some of you can set aside some of that passion and think very clearly about the state of this industry. While you might believe that Say Hello is a good song (and I agree), I'll say this. No one is buying it. No one cares about it. You don't hear it in clubs. You don't hear it out of car windows. What you hear is The Killers, Kelly Clarkson and Ludacris.

So I hope you can take of that passion that you directed at me and direct it to the industry, in whatever way. We're all responsible for this genre, but it's not going to improve if we all stand around and pat each other on the back.

 

[clubfm]

> Just a few thoughts on the heated debate/catfight below. No
> doubt it's pissed the moderator off, but it's at least proof
> that there is some passion amongst the few fans that still
> exist in this genre.
>
> For the few of you that mailed me and accuse me of being a
> hater to the scene. I am not a hater. I am the opposite.
> I had a tremendous passion for this scene, I'm sure I always
> will...but I will never have a passion for the self
> congradulatory attitude that seems so prominent in this
> subculture.
>
> Our music is on life support. No one gives a damn about it.
> It's nearly impossible to sell it and the number of
> commercial terrestial FM stations playing dance is close to
> number ZERO. Whatever your opinions on what are "good"
> songs, they're really immaterial. From the business
> perspective this music is a non-issue (and my apologies to
> Robbins, again, not slag at what you do).
>
> When I posted that Energy in AZ had no ratings, it wasn't a
> slag on the station. Not a slag at Perry, Oaks or anyone
> for that matter. I made it clear that I believe the station
> has no ratings because....the product (music) it has to play
> is piss poor. It's hard to gather numbers when you're
> marketing mediocre product to a tiny market with 1000000
> other choices.
>
> I hope some of you can set aside some of that passion and
> think very clearly about the state of this industry. While
> you might believe that Say Hello is a good song (and I
> agree), I'll say this. No one is buying it. No one cares
> about it. You don't hear it in clubs. You don't hear it
> out of car windows. What you hear is The Killers, Kelly
> Clarkson and Ludacris.
>
> So I hope you can take of that passion that you directed at
> me and direct it to the industry, in whatever way. We're
> all responsible for this genre, but it's not going to
> improve if we all stand around and pat each other on the
> back.
>

Im going to have to disagree with you on a few points you made.

Deep Dish - "Say Hello" You don't hear it in clubs. WHAT?

Maybe not in the clubs in Canada but I have heard this song played several times in Tampa, Miami, Orlando, Las Vegas, and Atlanta - That's 5 for 5. I dont know how the rest of the country is doing with this song in the clubs... but its getting played heavily at all clubs I have been to in the past 6 months in the cities I have partied in.

"No one gives a damn about it."
You are 100% correct.
1) The music is marketed <u>very</u> poorly.
2) There is only ONE TV station in the USA that plays dance videos.
3) There are NO local FM stations playing dance music.
4) The majority of the songs released are realeased by one hit wonders.
5) This music is NOT available to the general public. That's a major problem.

Not to downplay DHT - but what are the chances of this group? (Call me stupid but is DHT a group or a solo? - (BLEEP) I have no idea), but what are the chances of DHT releasing another sucessful song this year? Probably pretty slim - Right when the mainstream audience wants to learn more about DHT nothing else comes out.

The Trance Heads think this music is Cheesy. The House Heads think this music is cheesy.. Its a total No Win Situation. It cracks me up because when Motorcyle or Darude- Sandstorm first came out.. all of the trance heads were raving about it.. but now its labeld cheese? LOL They love the song at first, but the second it gets commercialized, they turn their back on it and call it cheese. - whatever.

"What you hear is The Killers, Kelly Clarkson and Ludacris."
Exactly.. and why is this? Because Kelly Clarkson won American Idol (viewed by MILLIONS), The Killers is all over MTV, Ludacris is all over MTV and BET... It all comes down with promotion and The media and labels are CRAMMING this music down listener's throats. There are ringtones, videos, pepsi promos, TV shows, itunes, commercials, clothing lines, movies, etc...

If the audience cannot connect with the artist, then the audience dont care. When was the last time you saw a Dj on TV (besides Dj AM (nicole Richi's dude) - Never... when was the last time a dance artist came out with a FULL CD? - Couldnt tell ya... When was the last time Sherrie Lee or Res Q came out with their own perfume? - NEVER... When was the last time Stonebridge did a song for a popular movie? - NEVER. Seee where Im getting at? The list goes on and on. It's how you market the product... and there is NO marketing in dance music.

As for your "music is pisspoor" comment.... I would love for you to make a list of songs that you LOVE and songs that you think are PissPoor... and post em. I have said this several times... but there are a lot of great quality tunes out there this year.<P ID="signature">______________
www.1Club.FM INTERNET RADIO STATION
30 Channels... 1 Club DOT FM</P></P>

 

[Metro]

> As for your "music is pisspoor" comment.... I would love for
> you to make a list of songs that you LOVE and songs that you
> think are PissPoor... and post em.

As would I.

X, for someone who so frequently bemoans the current state of mainstream dance music, you've yet to offer any insight as to what music you believe would help turn this ship around. You've got a board full of individuals connected to the industry in one manner or another; feel free to chime in with your thoughts on what we all should be doing.

And as for the "self congratulatory attitude" of this board...

God forbid any of us say something *positive* to one another when dance music actually makes a progressive step forward, no matter how small the step in question is. For every DHT that manages to crack the wall of mainstream pop radio, you better believe that people here are going to commend that fact, however insignificant you may personally feel it to be.

A war isn't won in a single battle, and as previously stated, the frontlines haven't changed much in years - you take the victories you earn and try to maximize their future potential. Sometimes you succeed - sometimes you fail.

Your assessment of the current state of affiars is correct in certain regards - the music itself being horrid NOT being one of them - but frankly it's not much in the way of news for many of us, and nowhere near as bleak as you'd have us believe.

The people here, industry folks and everyday listeners alike, know we're all fighting an uphill battle at times. I can't speak for anyone else, but I keep plugging away at it because I *love* what I do and the music I play, and I certainly do what I can when I can to give the music the proper light it deserves to shine in. Rough as things may be, I prefer the "glass is half full" attitude.

Dance music in this part of the world may NEVER hit the heights that other genres have - if it does then we're all the better for it, and if it doesn't then we remain the loosely knit circle of fans, listeners, clubbers, djs, broadcasters, artists, and label folks that we already are now. Either way, I'm damn well going to stick with it regardless...

- M<P ID="signature">______________
Marcus McBride
Supermixx/XM
Select Mix</P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by Metro on 07/29/05 08:39 AM.</FONT></P>

 

[Renegade_X]

As you requested: How to fix dance

You wanted what I would do to fix dance music?

1. Create better songs. Wonder why Ludacris, Killers and Kelly Clarkson do so well? It's excellent music. The production is of great quality and the music would sell itself. Look at Rap music, sure sounds alot more rythmic than Whodini did 20 years ago. Rap music has better production than dance music. that's why more people like it.

2. Start singing. All forms of pop music (from country to metal) have lyrics. Not dance. It's wrapped up in 7 minute remixes of sounds or looping "waiting for a star to fall" 100 times in a tune. Where is the mainstream wide appeal in that?

3. It's today, not 1980. Cut the 80's remakes. One or two are fine, if done properly. 20 are not fine.

4. Who are you? How about some exposure? I know who the Killers are, who Kelly Clarkson is...but who is Dave Armstrong? Who is Cabin Crew? Who are DHT? Show me a face.

5. Get rid of the narrow mind. Mainstream success is a good thing, and so is the fact that alot of people like you're music. This isn't some exclusive club, its a musical genre.

6. Start working together. How is it that 100 hiphop guys, all with huge egos can work together and dance guys just fight? Why?, well the urban doods want the $$$$$. That might not seem like a really honourable thing, but it's reality. They make good music to make good money and they (mostly) get along and work together.

7. Keep the same singer. People relate to a band by the sound of a voice. That's why U2, Coldplay, etc keep the SAME guy singing the music. We're tight with Bono and Chris Martin, but who sang on the last Armand VH record? Off the top of my head, 4 Strings and ATB seem to keep the same singer. Take note that both 4 Strings and ATB have a lengthy track record.

8. Can't afford radio payola? Forget FM radio. It's never cared about you, so why care about it? It's a dinosaur with a shelf life now. Embrace the new media. What does that mean? HOW ABOUT SOME RINGTONES? How about making videos for viewing your your website NO CHARGE. And how about YOU, THE DANCE LISTENER, getting the message out.

9. Sell your music to TV ads or anyone that's willing to get you a nickel for them. Sell your soul to the devil. The marketing is a good thing.

10. And if you must listen to FM radio, forget the dance format. Stations like KTU and Z103.5 hold the future of dance. Dance in the mix with hiphop, pop and rock help sell it as a credible and popular form of music. And if you can't deal with that, well go crawl in a corner with your iPod and recognize the world doesn't spin around you.

 

[CHRles]

Re: As you requested: How to fix dance

> You wanted what I would do to fix dance music?
>
> 1. Create better songs. Wonder why Ludacris, Killers and
> Kelly Clarkson do so well? It's excellent music. The
> production is of great quality and the music would sell
> itself. Look at Rap music, sure sounds alot more rythmic
> than Whodini did 20 years ago. Rap music has better
> production than dance music. that's why more people like
> it.
>
LMAO ! Too funny. I'm sorry but Ludacris and Lil Jon records aren't all that production-wise when compared to early 90s N.W.A. records. Now THAT was serious production.
Ludacris and Kelly Clarkson excellent music...hahahahaha, too funny. While Kelly's is easy to digest on a Pop station it's not "excellent". But hey, I needed a good laugh

> 2. Start singing. All forms of pop music (from country to
> metal) have lyrics. Not dance. It's wrapped up in 7 minute
> remixes of sounds or looping "waiting for a star to fall"
> 100 times in a tune. Where is the mainstream wide appeal in
> that?
>
Actually those annoying 80s looped mainstream House records are extremely mass appeal. Too formulaic though for my taste...like the avergae Lil Jon record!

> 3. It's today, not 1980. Cut the 80's remakes. One or two
> are fine, if done properly. 20 are not fine.

People always try to cash in on something that works. You mentioned Hip Hop - can you reallt tell apart half the artists doing Dirty South/Crunk crap?

>
> 4. Who are you? How about some exposure? I know who the
> Killers are, who Kelly Clarkson is...but who is Dave
> Armstrong? Who is Cabin Crew? Who are DHT? Show me a
> face.

A lot of the female singers in Dance are actually prettier then the thug wannabes out there. If you want a face just go to their website. Since Dance music is mainly aimed at people OVER the age of 17 you don't see too many posters of your favorite artists.

>
> 5. Get rid of the narrow mind. Mainstream success is a
> good thing, and so is the fact that alot of people like
> you're music. This isn't some exclusive club, its a musical
> genre.

If an artist wishes to avoid the mainstream spotlight that's his prerogative. Just like some Hip Hop and Rock artist choose to avoid it, afraid to lose their musical integrity.

>
> 6. Start working together. How is it that 100 hiphop guys,
> all with huge egos can work together and dance guys just
> fight? Why?, well the urban doods want the $$$$$. That
> might not seem like a really honourable thing, but it's
> reality. They make good music to make good money and they
> (mostly) get along and work together.

Whats so great about hearing 6 similarly sounding guys doing something as simple as talking (rapping) one right after the other? In Dance music you have producers collaborate together, or singers working on different musical projects.

>
> 7. Keep the same singer. People relate to a band by the
> sound of a voice. That's why U2, Coldplay, etc keep the
> SAME guy singing the music. We're tight with Bono and Chris
> Martin, but who sang on the last Armand VH record? Off the
> top of my head, 4 Strings and ATB seem to keep the same
> singer. Take note that both 4 Strings and ATB have a
> lengthy track record.


>
> 8. Can't afford radio payola? Forget FM radio. It's never
> cared about you, so why care about it? It's a dinosaur with
> a shelf life now. Embrace the new media. What does that
> mean? HOW ABOUT SOME RINGTONES? How about making videos
> for viewing your your website NO CHARGE. And how about YOU,
> THE DANCE LISTENER, getting the message out.

There's tons of ringtons for Dance music in Europe. If you want to see Dance videos online there are several American and European websites you can check into. You can also view Germany's leading music video channel, Viva, which airs a lot of Dance.

>
> 9. Sell your music to TV ads or anyone that's willing to
> get you a nickel for them. Sell your soul to the devil.
> The marketing is a good thing.

You mean like The Bodyrockers "The Way You Move", which is on a popular soft drink commercial right now?

>
> 10. And if you must listen to FM radio, forget the dance
> format. Stations like KTU and Z103.5 hold the future of
> dance. Dance in the mix with hiphop, pop and rock help sell
> it as a credible and popular form of music. And if you
> can't deal with that, well go crawl in a corner with your
> iPod and recognize the world doesn't spin around you.
>
The world will always revolve around me...that's the philosophy most of us (meaning most people in the world) carry around subconciously.
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by CHRles on 07/29/05 03:04 PM.</FONT></P>

 

[Renegade_X]

Re: As you requested: How to fix dance

CHRles. When I speak of well produced and "excellent" music, I'm speaking from the pop standpoint. I am not comparing Kelly Clarkson to Winston Marsalis or Bach. Both Kelly Clarkson songs are well produced and have massive mainstream appeal. Same for Ludacris and much of the hiphop that exists. Crunk is not mainstream, it is a subgenre of rap music, and it's not fair to compare that to mainstream urban music. Would you compare Stellar Project to Orbital?

When I speak of exposure, I'm not talking about posters on the wall. This is a world of imagery, and imagery counts. BEP, Beyonce, or a slew of alternative pop musicians are all recognizable. The record buyer relates to everything about the record, not just the music. That's why bands like BEP are successful..they sell the whole package.

As for ringtones, yeah, they are common in Europe. So are trolleys, 3 cylinder cars, walkable cities & expensive petrol. What's up in Europe is meaningless when discussing American dance. This is about the North American market.

You mention Bodyrockers. Let's be honest mate, that record is an alternative record. It's just at home on indie radio as it is on dance, just like Chemical Bros & the like from the Electronica age. It is NICE to see Dance radio embrace that music.

Pretty singers might make for eye candy, but GOOD singers leave a lasting impression. Chris Martin of Coldplay isn't an attractive male, yet his voice is one very big reason that band sells. People relate to it. Not to mention that Bono or Chris Martin (or whoever) actually compose intelligent lyrics, rather than "things that make you go hmmm". Even artists like Eminem or JayZ produce lyric content that's far superior to the typical dance stuff. I HATE Eminem, but I respect the dood as a brillant rapper.

Stop dissing rap mate, and start learing from them, hate it or love it. I personally can't say I'm in love with rap music, but I do respect what they've did. I do think the rhymes of days gone by ARE superior to what you hear today, BUT....the rythmn of todays hiphop is MUCH superior to what it was. And rythmn counts. That's why women will fill the floor when you play Candyshop, even tho it's demeaning. It ain't the lyrics that make em move, its that rythmn.

And 1 more thing I forgot to add about dance music. Get back to embracing every culture. The world is full of people, and if you invite them in the fold, they may just show up. In other words, don't be exclusive but be inviting.


You wanted what I would do to fix dance music?
> >
> > 1. Create better songs. Wonder why Ludacris, Killers and
>
> > Kelly Clarkson do so well? It's excellent music. The
> > production is of great quality and the music would sell
> > itself. Look at Rap music, sure sounds alot more rythmic
> > than Whodini did 20 years ago. Rap music has better
> > production than dance music. that's why more people like
> > it.
> >
> LMAO ! Too funny. I'm sorry but Ludacris and Lil Jon records
> aren't all that production-wise when compared to early 90s
> N.W.A. records. Now THAT was serious production.
> Ludacris and Kelly Clarkson excellent music...hahahahaha,
> too funny. While Kelly's is easy to digest on a Pop station
> it's not "excellent". But hey, I needed a good laugh
>
> > 2. Start singing. All forms of pop music (from country
> to
> > metal) have lyrics. Not dance. It's wrapped up in 7
> minute
> > remixes of sounds or looping "waiting for a star to fall"
> > 100 times in a tune. Where is the mainstream wide appeal
> in
> > that?
> >
> Actually those annoying 80s looped mainstream House records
> are extremely mass appeal. Too formulaic though for my
> taste...like the avergae Lil Jon record!
>
> > 3. It's today, not 1980. Cut the 80's remakes. One or
> two
> > are fine, if done properly. 20 are not fine.
>
> People always try to cash in on something that works. You
> mentioned Hip Hop - can you reallt tell apart half the
> artists doing Dirty South/Crunk crap?
>
> >
> > 4. Who are you? How about some exposure? I know who the
>
> > Killers are, who Kelly Clarkson is...but who is Dave
> > Armstrong? Who is Cabin Crew? Who are DHT? Show me a
> > face.
>
> A lot of the female singers in Dance are actually prettier
> then the thug wannabes out there. If you want a face just go
> to their website. Since Dance music is mainly aimed at
> people OVER the age of 17 you don't see too many posters of
> your favorite artists.
>
> >
> > 5. Get rid of the narrow mind. Mainstream success is a
> > good thing, and so is the fact that alot of people like
> > you're music. This isn't some exclusive club, its a
> musical
> > genre.
>
> If an artist wishes to avoid the mainstream spotlight that's
> his prerogative. Just like some Hip Hop and Rock artist
> choose to avoid it, afraid to lose their musical integrity.
>
> >
> > 6. Start working together. How is it that 100 hiphop
> guys,
> > all with huge egos can work together and dance guys just
> > fight? Why?, well the urban doods want the $$$$$. That
> > might not seem like a really honourable thing, but it's
> > reality. They make good music to make good money and they
>
> > (mostly) get along and work together.
>
> Whats so great about hearing 6 similarly sounding guys doing
> something as simple as talking (rapping) one right after the
> other? In Dance music you have producers collaborate
> together, or singers working on different musical projects.
>
> >
> > 7. Keep the same singer. People relate to a band by the
> > sound of a voice. That's why U2, Coldplay, etc keep the
> > SAME guy singing the music. We're tight with Bono and
> Chris
> > Martin, but who sang on the last Armand VH record? Off
> the
> > top of my head, 4 Strings and ATB seem to keep the same
> > singer. Take note that both 4 Strings and ATB have a
> > lengthy track record.
>
>
> >
> > 8. Can't afford radio payola? Forget FM radio. It's
> never
> > cared about you, so why care about it? It's a dinosaur
> with
> > a shelf life now. Embrace the new media. What does that
> > mean? HOW ABOUT SOME RINGTONES? How about making videos
> > for viewing your your website NO CHARGE. And how about
> YOU,
> > THE DANCE LISTENER, getting the message out.
>
> There's tons of ringtons for Dance music in Europe. If you
> want to see Dance videos online there are several American
> and European websites you can check into. You can also view
> Germany's leading music video channel, Viva, which airs a
> lot of Dance.
>
> >
> > 9. Sell your music to TV ads or anyone that's willing to
> > get you a nickel for them. Sell your soul to the devil.
> > The marketing is a good thing.
>
> You mean like The Bodyrockers "The Way You Move", which is
> on a popular soft drink commercial right now?
>
> >
> > 10. And if you must listen to FM radio, forget the dance
> > format. Stations like KTU and Z103.5 hold the future of
> > dance. Dance in the mix with hiphop, pop and rock help
> sell
> > it as a credible and popular form of music. And if you
> > can't deal with that, well go crawl in a corner with your
> > iPod and recognize the world doesn't spin around you.
> >
> The world will always revolve around me...that's the
> philosophy most of us (meaning most people in the world)
> carry with them subconciously.
>

 

[rdalton]

YOU ARE A GENIUS. THANK YOU FOR SAVING US ALL

Thanks for telling us 50% falsehoods mixed in with the other 50% of what we already know. What you're telling us here isn't exactly gospel.

> 1. Create better songs. Wonder why Ludacris, Killers and
> Kelly Clarkson do so well? It's excellent music.

No, they have astronomical promotional budgets compared to anything dance.

> 2. Start singing. All forms of pop music (from country to
> metal) have lyrics. Not dance. It's wrapped up in 7 minute
> remixes of sounds or looping "waiting for a star to fall"
> 100 times in a tune. Where is the mainstream wide appeal in
> that?

They test well and response is through the roof. By the way, most dance music is lyric heavy.

> 3. It's today, not 1980. Cut the 80's remakes. One or two
> are fine, if done properly. 20 are not fine.

Oh, ok-- thanks.

> 4. Who are you? How about some exposure? I know who the
> Killers are, who Kelly Clarkson is...but who is Dave
> Armstrong? Who is Cabin Crew? Who are DHT? Show me a
> face.

Hello!?!? WE DO NOT HAVE PROMOTIONAL DOLLARS!

> 5. Get rid of the narrow mind. Mainstream success is a
> good thing, and so is the fact that alot of people like
> you're music. This isn't some exclusive club, its a musical
> genre.

What the heck are you talking about?

> 6. Start working together. How is it that 100 hiphop guys,
> all with huge egos can work together and dance guys just
> fight? Why?, well the urban doods want the $$$$$. That
> might not seem like a really honourable thing, but it's
> reality. They make good music to make good money and they
> (mostly) get along and work together.

And what do you base this on? I hear horror stories how at conventions of other genres of music, crazy things happen like fights break out and heavy security is needed. Does that happen with dance? No, we're all too busy working together. Before you libel us as a whole, you should look closer into it.

> 7. Keep the same singer.

Oh, you mean like most dance acts do? I'll forward your memo to the 2% who don't comply.

> 8. Can't afford radio payola? Forget FM radio. It's never
> cared about you, so why care about it? It's a dinosaur with
> a shelf life now. Embrace the new media. What does that
> mean? HOW ABOUT SOME RINGTONES? How about making videos
> for viewing your your website NO CHARGE. And how about YOU,
> THE DANCE LISTENER, getting the message out.

Gee, none of the labels ever considered ringtones. You are a genius.

> 9. Sell your music to TV ads or anyone that's willing to
> get you a nickel for them. Sell your soul to the devil.
> The marketing is a good thing.

Hey! That's a great idea! I always thought Daft Punk would be a great idea for an itunes commercial, but I know they would never go for it. Body Rockers would be great for a sodapop commercial, but maybe that's reaching too high. again: HELLO?!?!

> 10. Dance in the mix with hiphop, pop and rock help sell
> it as a credible and popular form of music.

I'll be sure to tell KNHC, KNGY, WDVW and WCDV that. Even though they already do that, I will let them know they don't.

--

Now, I'm never mean when I write back on these boards, but I just get sick of someone trying to run the genre from their lounge chair who obviously has no idea of what goes on. And then they go and preach it like they are the first to have these ideas. NEWSFLASH! Your ideas have already been visited, and either discarded because they don't work, or have been worked on for years<P ID="signature">______________
http://www.RichardJDalton.com</P>

 

[Renegade_X]

Re: YOU ARE A GENIUS. THANK YOU FOR SAVING US ALL

Someone asked me for my opinions on what I would do. I posted them. You did read that part, right? Are you a mod? Isn't you position that of allowing open and free discussion on these forums? Your Subject Line says it all.

So perhaps if my ideas aren't working you could tell me your ideas on improving the scene? If I'm that lounge chair quarterback as you believe, then perhaps you could give me some detail into what YOU have in mind to better this genre and drag it kicking and screaming into some relevancy in 2005.

And quite bluntly, if you're unwilling to accept any ideas outside the norm without posting in CAPS and screaming I have no idea what I'm talking about, then please, remove my ID from this forum. I'm quite willing to accept disagreement of what I say, CHRles is a great example. I respect CHRles and his opinions, just mine differ. But your arrogant and caustic "YOU ARE A GENIUS" line says it all. Perhaps removing my access to this forum IS a good idea. It will allow you to return to your protected little cocoon, smug in the knowledge that all is OK.

On the way home, pick up the song from the Housemartins. Its called "The people that grinned themselves to death". Enjoy




Thanks for telling us 50% falsehoods mixed in with the other
> 50% of what we already know. What you're telling us here
> isn't exactly gospel.
>
> > 1. Create better songs. Wonder why Ludacris, Killers and
>
> > Kelly Clarkson do so well? It's excellent music.
>
> No, they have astronomical promotional budgets compared to
> anything dance.
>
> > 2. Start singing. All forms of pop music (from country
> to
> > metal) have lyrics. Not dance. It's wrapped up in 7
> minute
> > remixes of sounds or looping "waiting for a star to fall"
> > 100 times in a tune. Where is the mainstream wide appeal
> in
> > that?
>
> They test well and response is through the roof. By the way,
> most dance music is lyric heavy.
>
> > 3. It's today, not 1980. Cut the 80's remakes. One or
> two
> > are fine, if done properly. 20 are not fine.
>
> Oh, ok-- thanks.
>
> > 4. Who are you? How about some exposure? I know who the
>
> > Killers are, who Kelly Clarkson is...but who is Dave
> > Armstrong? Who is Cabin Crew? Who are DHT? Show me a
> > face.
>
> Hello!?!? WE DO NOT HAVE PROMOTIONAL DOLLARS!
>
> > 5. Get rid of the narrow mind. Mainstream success is a
> > good thing, and so is the fact that alot of people like
> > you're music. This isn't some exclusive club, its a
> musical
> > genre.
>
> What the heck are you talking about?
>
> > 6. Start working together. How is it that 100 hiphop
> guys,
> > all with huge egos can work together and dance guys just
> > fight? Why?, well the urban doods want the $$$$$. That
> > might not seem like a really honourable thing, but it's
> > reality. They make good music to make good money and they
>
> > (mostly) get along and work together.
>
> And what do you base this on? I hear horror stories how at
> conventions of other genres of music, crazy things happen
> like fights break out and heavy security is needed. Does
> that happen with dance? No, we're all too busy working
> together. Before you libel us as a whole, you should look
> closer into it.
>
> > 7. Keep the same singer.
>
> Oh, you mean like most dance acts do? I'll forward your memo
> to the 2% who don't comply.
>
> > 8. Can't afford radio payola? Forget FM radio. It's
> never
> > cared about you, so why care about it? It's a dinosaur
> with
> > a shelf life now. Embrace the new media. What does that
> > mean? HOW ABOUT SOME RINGTONES? How about making videos
> > for viewing your your website NO CHARGE. And how about
> YOU,
> > THE DANCE LISTENER, getting the message out.
>
> Gee, none of the labels ever considered ringtones. You are a
> genius.
>
> > 9. Sell your music to TV ads or anyone that's willing to
> > get you a nickel for them. Sell your soul to the devil.
> > The marketing is a good thing.
>
> Hey! That's a great idea! I always thought Daft Punk would
> be a great idea for an itunes commercial, but I know they
> would never go for it. Body Rockers would be great for a
> sodapop commercial, but maybe that's reaching too high.
> again: HELLO?!?!
>
> > 10. Dance in the mix with hiphop, pop and rock help
> sell
> > it as a credible and popular form of music.
>
> I'll be sure to tell KNHC, KNGY, WDVW and WCDV that. Even
> though they already do that, I will let them know they
> don't.
>
> --
>
> Now, I'm never mean when I write back on these boards, but I
> just get sick of someone trying to run the genre from their
> lounge chair who obviously has no idea of what goes on. And
> then they go and preach it like they are the first to have
> these ideas. NEWSFLASH! Your ideas have already been
> visited, and either discarded because they don't work, or
> have been worked on for years
>

 

[Dancerev889]

Re: YOU ARE A GENIUS. THANK YOU FOR SAVING US ALL

He is not all that off. The genre needs faces. As great as those David Morales tracks were he wasnt singing them. The narrow minded comment I agree with. Whos to say whats a dance track or not? Granted the money isnt there for big production budgets and its not there for promotions but there has to be some type of promotion to the masses. Remember, and this is something too many people on this board forget, radio is looking for mass appeal. They have to sell advertising. Plus a major thing is we cant forget the past. Too many people say ignore the past, you cant. Those are the tracks the masses know. You need bait to fish in an audience. We need to get the artists out to the masses.

 

[mikeo]

Re: YOU ARE A GENIUS. THANK YOU FOR SAVING US ALL

> Hey! That's a great idea! I always thought Daft Punk would
> be a great idea for an itunes commercial, but I know they
> would never go for it. Body Rockers would be great for a
> sodapop commercial, but maybe that's reaching too high.
> again: HELLO?!?!


I'd Shi* my pants if Kaskade did a beer commercial.

 

[CHRles]

Re: YOU ARE A GENIUS. THANK YOU FOR SAVING US ALL

> He is not all that off. The genre needs faces. As great as
> those David Morales tracks were he wasnt singing them. The
> narrow minded comment I agree with. Whos to say whats a
> dance track or not? Granted the money isnt there for big
> production budgets and its not there for promotions but
> there has to be some type of promotion to the masses.
> Remember, and this is something too many people on this
> board forget, radio is looking for mass appeal. They have
> to sell advertising. Plus a major thing is we cant forget
> the past. Too many people say ignore the past, you cant.
> Those are the tracks the masses know. You need bait to fish
> in an audience. We need to get the artists out to the
> masses.
>

All good points. I think some of the Dance artists are more cooperative and willing to make adjustments to get their songs played on the radio then others. Nothing wrong with that - Hip Hop artists if you'll notice often do the same. Some Hip Hop tracks need to be heavily edited to get played by radio stations, while other Rap titles come equipped with both a clean and dirty versions.

Some Rock artists release both 3-4 minute radio friendly versions, while others don't so radio has to make its own edits (see Guns N Roses "November Rain").

The past is great, but most CHRs focus on music from the past few years. Adult stations on the other hand have no problem digging back 10-20 years or more.
Oh, I think that the present time has been the best time for Dance fans to find and enjoy their music 24/7. It may not be on terrestrial radio necessarily, but you've got tons of places where you can listen to Dance music 24/7, and thanks to the internet you can find out more information then ever before on artists, or order hard to find titles.

I think it's much easier today to be exposed to Dance music, if you really want to be exposed to it, when compared to 10 years ago.

 

[CHRles]

Re: YOU ARE A GENIUS. THANK YOU FOR SAVING US ALL

> > Hey! That's a great idea! I always thought Daft Punk would
>
> > be a great idea for an itunes commercial, but I know they
> > would never go for it. Body Rockers would be great for a
> > sodapop commercial, but maybe that's reaching too high.
> > again: HELLO?!?!
>
>
> I'd Shi* my pants if Kaskade did a beer commercial.
>

LOL, I'm sure he'd be happy to do a Neutrogena commercial if he was paired up with Kristin Kreuk (of Smallville)

 

[rdalton]

Re: YOU ARE A GENIUS. THANK YOU FOR SAVING US ALL

> He is not all that off. The genre needs faces.

I was just tired of reading post after post of stuff we already know and having it pitched like no one ever thought of it. A lot of us agree with you, Brett.<P ID="signature">______________
http://www.RichardJDalton.com</P>

 

[CHRles]

Re: YOU ARE A GENIUS. THANK YOU FOR SAVING US ALL

Richard's cool. I think we all evantually get a little ticked and frustrated with one another on this board with some issues. He wasn't being mean though, just sarcastic, and maybe a bit angry.

I think that you may have more in common with him then you think, as he also enjoys a lot of non Dance music that you probably enjoy too. I don't think we're all just patting Dance music on the back blindly. We all know there's bad product out there, and there's always been some, but many of us feel there's a healthy amount of good Dance music too.

Are you sure you're being objective when you make comments about Dance music versus other genres? There's a lot of bad product to be found in them too, and you don't even have to dig deep. Like others have said, it's all about the right promotional budgets, and the right trends that are currently setting in with America's youth.

 

[Metro]

Re: As you requested: How to fix dance

> You wanted what I would do to fix dance music?

(sigh...)

Actually, what I'd like to know, more than anything else, are your suggestions of current dance records that you'd personally define as being "good", with the emphasis on and keyword here being current.

If you're really that hard-pressed to name a handful of recent tracks you'd define as such, then you really should consider giving up and moving on for the time being.

As for what you did post...

> 1. Create better songs.

Not going there. At least, not until you put yourself to the task that I and others have posed to you...

> Rap music has better production than dance music. that's why more people like it.

That's highly debateable. Production value really isn't a huge factor; more people like because it has an enormous promotional and marketing juggernaught working behind it. Period.

> 2. Start singing.

Riiiiiight... dance music is just an instrumental wasteland these days, isn't it? Plenty of vocal records to be found out there my friend. Seek and ye shall find.

> 3. It's today, not 1980. Cut the 80's remakes.

On this we agree. I've *never* been an enormous fan of such remakes, but I'll freely admit that they do have a valuable purpose, as CHRles stated elsewhere in this thread. The recognition and nostalgia factors work wonders for some of these records.

> 5. Get rid of the narrow mind. Mainstream success is a
> good thing, and so is the fact that alot of people like
> you're music. This isn't some exclusive club, its a musical
> genre.

Err... no, this isn't some exclusive club - and rarely do I see anyone in mainstream dance music holding the doors closed on those trying to get in. Not really sure what you're getting at here with this, so...

> 6. Start working together.

Happens every day. "Name" artists get the overhaul from "name" remixers all the time. Unless you'd like the music to truly go the hip-hop route and have everybody and their mother featured on everybody and their mother's records.

> How is it that 100 hiphop guys,
> all with huge egos can work together and dance guys just fight?

Is it "Opposite Day" or something?

Where in the depths of your brain did you dredge up this concept? Sure, the hip-hop community works together often, but there are more rivalries, friendly or otherwise, in hip-hop than in any other genre of music today. I'm at a loss to name even ONE in dance music.

> 7. Keep the same singer.

Most do.

> 4 Strings and ATB seem to keep the same
> singer. Take note that both 4 Strings and ATB have a
> lengthy track record.

Of what exactly?

> Embrace the new media.

Agreed.

> HOW ABOUT SOME RINGTONES? How about making videos
> for viewing your your website NO CHARGE.

Again, seek and ye shall find.

> 9. Sell your music to TV ads or anyone that's willing to
> get you a nickel for them.

Do you not watch TV? Cuz I do. And I have this whacky tendency to hear dance records used at times in the TV ads I see. Maybe it's just me...

> 10. And if you must listen to FM radio, forget the dance
> format. Stations like KTU and Z103.5 hold the future of
> dance. Dance in the mix with hiphop, pop and rock help sell
> it as a credible and popular form of music.

And here we come to the smartest thing I've seen you post yet. I whole-heartedly agree one hundred percent with you on this point. A return to the days of true crossover radio, back when the format mixed all manner of pop and urban and hip hop and dance music (think 1988 through 1994) together in the same playlist, would be a truly glorious and wonderful thing.

Which, you know, will probably never happen...

- M<P ID="signature">______________
Marcus McBride
Supermixx/XM
Select Mix</P>

 

[Metro]

Re: YOU ARE A GENIUS. THANK YOU FOR SAVING US ALL

> A lot of us agree with you, Brett.

Indeed we do.

However, much like Rich, I get just a tad irritated when people repeatedly slag or belittle the dance music community when the context in which they do it is a bit off-base or overblown, at least in my opinion. There are problems, no doubt, but as Rich stated, we're well aware of the flaws and what we could/should be doing to correct them.

If nothing else, these exchanges help keep the issues and challenges fresh in our minds - which is never a bad thing.

- M<P ID="signature">______________
Marcus McBride
Supermixx/XM
Select Mix</P>

 

[clubfm]

Re: YOU ARE A GENIUS. THANK YOU FOR SAVING US ALL

You keep talking about how awful dance music is this year.. We just want a list of songs that you keep saying are PISSPOOR and songs that are OK. You keep saying that this year sucks with music.. so I would like to find out what kind of taste you have in music.<P ID="signature">______________
www.1Club.FM INTERNET RADIO STATION
30 Channels... 1 Club DOT FM</P></P>

 

[RobertMoore]

Re: YOU ARE A GENIUS. THANK YOU FOR SAVING US ALL

I'm still waiting for Tiesto to do a remix with The Fantanas!

 

[clubfm]

Re: YOU ARE A GENIUS. THANK YOU FOR SAVING US ALL

> I'm still waiting for Tiesto to do a remix with The
> Fantanas!
>

Im still waiting for the Paul Oakenfold or Dj Tiesto remix of Carrie Underwood's - "Inside Your Heaven" promoting next year's American Idol Show.<P ID="signature">______________
www.1Club.FM INTERNET RADIO STATION
30 Channels... 1 Club DOT FM</P></P>

 

[Renegade_X]

Picks, choices and information.

I'm not belittling the community, I'm speaking my mind. Nor am I some fan that just wandered in this room and thought "let's start a flame war". I regret having to bring my personal life in here as "proof" I'm legit. I've spent 17ish years as a club DJ, I gave up last year because I was too tired in the morning. I've worked in FM radio, my first shift in 88, I still do it today. I released an electronica CD in 2000, sold about 5000 copies worldwide, even got royalty cheques from Europe...I really made the CD out of boredom with a case of beer and a pack of smokes. I've also admin'd a Swedish Music site, worked in Internet radio, and still today actively promote dance music on a community radio station (no pay, nothing). I also own in excess of 6000 CDs/vinyl, nearly all of it dance music (and some old alternative).

So this isn't a sh*t on dance music fest, it's a legitmate complaint about something I have an INTENSE passion for.

If you want a list of what I think works, and what doesnt work? Sure, give me some time. Keep in mind what I personally like and what I think work are two diffie things.

You'll get your list (which you can then smash claiming I don't have any idea what I'm talking about).

And I do care about more than Dance music. But thats immaterial, right.


> Indeed we do.
>
> However, much like Rich, I get just a tad irritated when
> people repeatedly slag or belittle the dance music community
> when the context in which they do it is a bit off-base or
> overblown, at least in my opinion. There are problems, no
> doubt, but as Rich stated, we're well aware of the flaws and
> what we could/should be doing to correct them.
>
> If nothing else, these exchanges help keep the issues and
> challenges fresh in our minds - which is never a bad thing.
>
> - M
>