Now Playing on K-Earth - Classic Rock! (Well, sorta...)

[michael hagerty]

Incidents end when the station plays a bad song

But David....It's a bad song to some, not to all. That's what I've been trying to stress. At worst, it might rank as 50/50...a neutral type. Now unless you play that Chirpy Chirpy song that Rewind mentioned or something slow like "At Seventeen" (good song btw) at drive time or "Honey", then you might risk losing the masses (but even with those hits, a few will stick it through..).

You will still lose some listeners even with the tested songs....It happens all the time, with any song. Some less than others. 100% of your target will not like even a superior song like "Billie Jean"....It happens. Some like "Afternoon Delight"...heck wasn't that played on KRTH recently?

Yes, but you've created an acceptable balance for the typical listener and a consistent quarter hour listenership. As many come in as go out. The moment you inject uncertainty into that you risk more leaving than are normally coming in.

Let's say it's 50/50. Once an hour you want to risk blowing off 50% of your audience?

Eventually that worms its way into your cume. If you lose even 10%, that's 220,000 listeners a week.

 

[oldies76]

There is no evidence that classic hits listeners want to be surprised. They want to be entertained with songs they know and love, not stiffs.

Well, most listeners react positively when they hear and remember a song that has not been played on the radio in ages (especially one they miss or like) and they do act surprised.....it's known as the oh-wow factor. I'm sure you are familiar with this radio term.

Some "stiffs" are perfectly acceptable today....Give them a chance to air.

 

[oldies76]

Let's say it's 50/50. Once an hour you want to risk blowing off 50% of your audience?

Then why do auditorium tests accept some songs that rate neutral, if there's such a risk to listenership?

 

[michael hagerty]

Let's say it's 50/50. Once an hour you want to risk blowing off 50% of your audience?

Then why do auditorium tests accept some songs that rate neutral, if there's such a risk to listenership?

Neutral is not the same as a 50% dislike factor.

 

[Thomps2525]

Lemme try to 'splain this. (Said in my best Ricky Ricardo voice.)

In the 1950s-60s when people actively listened to music radio, they occasionally heard a song they disliked and then probably would tune to a different station.

In the 2000s, people passively listen to oldies, classic rock and adult contemporary. The stations are on but because (within the given format) they play the same few hundred songs over and over and over and over and over, no one is paying close attention to what's being played at any given time. The stations are "background noise" and the songs are considered "neutral" because few people will bother to change the station when they hear the same songs every day and have grown numb to them.

(This is just my opinion so I don't want David or Michael asking me for supporting data. )

 

[michael hagerty]

Lemme try to 'splain this. (Said in my best Ricky Ricardo voice.)

In the 1950s-60s when people actively listened to music radio, they occasionally heard a song they disliked and then probably would tune to a different station.

In the 2000s, people passively listen to oldies, classic rock and adult contemporary. The stations are on but because (within the given format) they play the same few hundred songs over and over and over and over and over, no one is paying close attention to what's being played at any given time. The stations are "background noise" and the songs are considered "neutral" because few people will bother to change the station when they hear the same songs every day and have grown numb to them.

(This is just my opinion so I don't want David or Michael asking me for supporting data. )

Damn!

Okay, skip data, move right to logic.

If they're passive and rarely touch the dial, why are they only there for 15 minutes at a shot and how are they cramming in 6 to 9 stations total?

 

[Thomps2525]

I can't answer that question until you answer these: If people listen to six stations for 15 minutes each, is all that listening done in a 90-minute span or are people listening to one station for 15 minutes in early morning, then a different station for 15 minutes at lunchtime, and so on. And how many of those 15-minute listening periods take place in an automobile as opposed to in a home or in a workplace? And if an office building with 20 employees has KBIG playing, how can anyone know if any of those 20people are paying attention to the station...or, if so, for how long at a time?

Sometimes I'm better at questions than answers.

 

[michael hagerty]

I can't answer that question until you answer these: If people listen to six stations for 15 minutes each, is all that listening done in a 90-minute span or are people listening to one station for 15 minutes in early morning, then a different station for 15 minutes at lunchtime, and so on. And how many of those 15-minute listening periods take place in an automobile as opposed to in a home or in a workplace? And if an office building with 20 employees has KBIG playing, how can anyone know if any of those 20people are paying attention to the station...or, if so, for how long at a time?

Sometimes I'm better at questions than answers.

And David's the best on what the PPM tells us, so this one's for him.

 

[Thomps2525]

The PPMs can tell us if someone has a radio station on but not if he's paying any attention to it. Maybe Arbitron could start sending out quizzes each month with multiple-choice questions and essay questions to see who is really listening. "Who was Ryan Seacrest's in-studio guest on Tuesday?" Ummm..... "What was Gary Hoffmann's number-one News Nugget last Sunday?" Ummm.....

 

[davideduardo]

I can't answer that question until you answer these: If people listen to six stations for 15 minutes each, is all that listening done in a 90-minute span or are people listening to one station for 15 minutes in early morning, then a different station for 15 minutes at lunchtime, and so on. And how many of those 15-minute listening periods take place in an automobile as opposed to in a home or in a workplace? And if an office building with 20 employees has KBIG playing, how can anyone know if any of those 20people are paying attention to the station...or, if so, for how long at a time?

Sometimes I'm better at questions than answers.

First, paying attention is not what advertisers really want to know. They want a measure of exposure, intentional or accidental. And ratings are mostly done to sell time to advertisers.

People as a rule don't switch constantly between 5 or 6 stations. They tend to have favorites for certain occasions or moods. So they may listen for several hours without changing station, but most people have interruptions so the length of the incidents tends to be relatively short.

I've seen an example of a person listening to one station during a day, but the total listening consisted of over 25 separate incidents, most of only one or two quarter hours.

 

[michael hagerty]

The PPMs can tell us if someone has a radio station on but not if he's paying any attention to it.

Right, but they do tell us that your initial premise is flawed. The audience isn't passive, doesn't stay tuned for long stretches of time for passivity or any other reason and thus aren't hearing the same songs over and over.

As we've established time and again, the average listener is hearing the most-played songs repeat at most once every three weeks, and there are factors that can lengthen that interval. By that point, the listener (who's not keeping track of the last time they heard "Love Train"), just knows it's been a while since they heard it last.

 

[davideduardo]

Neutral is not the same as a 50% dislike factor.

Yep. There is a difference between a song where half the peeps give it a Favorite score and half give it a Hate score and one where everyone gives it a neutral score. One is not playable, the other is.

 

[SolidGold16]

Speaking of stiffs, question for David:

Is there a list anywhere of so-called "stiffs" from your research or available online? If it's possible, I'd just like to see a fairly comprehensive list of these songs to make my own "anti-repetition" playlist. As I've mentioned before (and probably most everyone has read by now) I'm with LARR and O-76 about the "wow" factor. Since this won't ever happen IRL on KRTH/KOLA, etc. maybe I can make my own to supplement my streaming radio habit. BTW: I'm really enjoying the variety of songs I'm hearing on online radio, and one of these days, when it's possible, I'd love to have a internet streaming radio in my car. I don't mean a smartphone input to my car stereo, but a honest-to-goodness internet radio like the one I use at home. I don't really care for Sirius/XM and I'm not too willing to pay fees for the privilege, other than normal internet access fees. Here's hoping such a thing comes to pass...

Meanwhile, I could use a list of these stiffs to make a compilation on a flash drive which my current car stereo has the capability to play today.

I think it would be very interesting to see a more complete list of songs that have been "tested" and rejected by audiences. Thanks if you're able to provide such a list, David.

 

[michael hagerty]

Speaking of stiffs, question for David:

Is there a list anywhere of so-called "stiffs" from your research or available online? If it's possible, I'd just like to see a fairly comprehensive list of these songs to make my own "anti-repetition" playlist. As I've mentioned before (and probably most everyone has read by now) I'm with LARR and O-76 about the "wow" factor. Since this won't ever happen IRL on KRTH/KOLA, etc. maybe I can make my own to supplement my streaming radio habit. BTW: I'm really enjoying the variety of songs I'm hearing on online radio, and one of these days, when it's possible, I'd love to have a internet streaming radio in my car. I don't mean a smartphone input to my car stereo, but a honest-to-goodness internet radio like the one I use at home. I don't really care for Sirius/XM and I'm not too willing to pay fees for the privilege, other than normal internet access fees. Here's hoping such a thing comes to pass...

Meanwhile, I could use a list of these stiffs to make a compilation on a flash drive which my current car stereo has the capability to play today.

I think it would be very interesting to see a more complete list of songs that have been "tested" and rejected by audiences. Thanks if you're able to provide such a list, David.

I'm guessing that's proprietary information, but you can make your own list.

1. Buy a copy of any of the Joel Whitburn chart books. I see them for $10-15 at used bookstores fairly frequently.

2. Go to the KRTH website and hit "playlist". Scroll through and put a black mark in the Whitburn book next to every song KRTH plays in the course of a month. There's an archive that goes back farther than that.

3. Presto! Every song in your Whitburn book that doesn't have a black mark by it is a song that didn't test well enough to get played on KRTH.

4. Check back every 4-6 months because audience tastes are changing. Songs cycle in, songs cycle out.

 

[SolidGold16]

Thanks for the suggestion, Michael. A bit of work, but it might be worth it since I'd have fun compiling all the information. You're probably right about it being proprietary information, I didn't think about that but I can see where it takes work to put together a list for audience research and you wouldn't want to give it away. I was just hoping there was a list already compiled available somewhere that I could just browse and use. If there is, and if anyone else knows of one, let me know. Otherwise, I guess I'll be doing what Michael suggests.

 

[oldies76]

3. Presto! Every song in your Whitburn book that doesn't have a black mark by it is a song that didn't test well enough to get played on KRTH.

But that does not make it a stiff. If "Tragedy" by the Bee Gees does not get played on KRTH, it's certainly not a stiff either and it wasn't in 1979. Very few #1 songs would be truly considered stiffs. I'd probably apply that to songs that charted below 20 or lower. In other words, songs that were not even popular during their initial release.

 

[michael hagerty]

3. Presto! Every song in your Whitburn book that doesn't have a black mark by it is a song that didn't test well enough to get played on KRTH.

But that does not make it a stiff. If "Tragedy" by the Bee Gees does not get played on KRTH, it's certainly not a stiff either and it wasn't in 1979. Very few #1 songs would be truly considered stiffs. I'd probably apply that to songs that charted below 20 or lower. In other words, songs that were not even popular during their initial release.

Which is why I didn't use the word "stiff". SolidGold16 did, but made it clear what he wants is a list of songs that didn't test well enough for KRTH to play so he can listen to them.

 

[SolidGold16]

You're right, Michael. I only called them "stiffs" since this is the preferred term used by DE (at least, I think that's what he called them). I know there's lots of songs that his research would call stiffs that were actually quite popular back when they were new and considered "unplayable" today. Not for me, or O-76 or others, of course...but for KRTH/KOLA.

 

[michael hagerty]

You're right, Michael. I only called them "stiffs" since this is the preferred term used by DE. I know there's lots of songs that his research would call stiffs that were actually quite popular back when they were new and considered "unplayable" today. Not for me, or O-76 or others, of course...but for KRTH/KOLA.

You might want to get two copies of Whitburn. I understand KOLA's made big changes recently.

 

[SolidGold16]

You might want to get two copies of Whitburn. I understand KOLA's made big changes recently.

I haven't listened in a couple of months, have they gone totally 90s yet? ;D

J/K but the last time I listened, it seems that was their general direction. I've only listened to KRTH recently, I deleted KOLA off my car radio tuner preset a while ago.