OLDIES 103.7 PROGRAMMER(S) TAKE NOTE...KOOL/PHX SOLID #1 IN LATEST PPM'S

[davideduardo]

I have a few questions: Who decides what gets played?

The final decision belongs to the program director, but in large markets a statistically proportional sample of the audience "votes" on the songs by listening to song clips and scoring them.

Do the record companies have any say so on musical selections?

Not if the station wants to keep its license. And record companies have about zero interest in gold based formats.

As for playing the older material, I feel that if someone like some of the songs that gets played, that person would be inclined to go out and buy the album.

One of the very strongest reasons people listen to radio (and I include Pandora, et. al. here) is that the average CD has two or three hits / good songs, and the rest are "B" sides.

Beyond that, one of the often cited reasons why the record industry did not keep pace with the conversion to digital is that the record ducks wanted to sell albums, and the public wants to buy songs.

Don't tell me the PD. Most radio stations sound alike.

Most stations do not sound alike, although stations of a like format in different cities will sound a lot alike because the same songs have been, format by format, the big hits everywhere in the country.

All I'm asking for is more variety.
Listening to the radio should be adventure

Most adults want familiar songs, and tune out amazingly fast if too many unfamiliar songs are played on a station.

 

[michael hagerty]

I believe the Oldies format needs an update and I have an idea what that update could be Play tracks from established artists that aren't played to death. There are plenty of gems out there waiting to be discovered or re-discovered.

David covered most of it, but to amplify a bit:

Back in the early 1970s, when most of us were playing 30 current hits (and a few were still playing 40), KCBQ, San Diego program director Buzz Bennett said "There are only 7 real hits at any given time". The rest, Buzz said, were just songs that the listeners (hopefully) didn't object to.

Buzz put his money where his mouth was, and cut his playlist to 20. The 7 hits, 10 songs that were hits in the weeks previous, were on their way down the chart but still had life in them, and three new ones that he believed would end up being among the 7 hits in a few weeks. And it worked.

What Buzz's theory taught me is that there's a big difference between a Top 40 record, a Top 20 record, a Top 10 record, a Top 5 record and a number 1 record.

Over time, not every #1 record will hold up. Some are purely of their time and have no shelf life beyond. But, apart from a commercial, a movie or some other event that breathes new life into a lower-charted record, nothing will ever make a #12 record as popular as a #1...especially 20 or 30 years later. And the object is to have as many people as possible listening all at once.

 

[landtuna]

But, apart from a commercial, a movie or some other event that breathes new life into a lower-charted record, ...

It seems there are some *ahem* older folks in the ad agencies still pushing their ancient favs into modern commercials. I'm always amazed when I hear an old gem in a new setting.

Consider, for example, "Pictures of Matchstick Men" now airing in a Target (I think) commercial. And Honda using a cover of "Loneliest Boy in NYC".

Too bad our youngsters have been vaccinated to ignore commercials or they might pick up on some of these great sounds.

 

[Kelly Watts]

I listened to KOOL FM in two different dayparts recently, the first time in about a year. I guess they no longer are programming to anyone over 50. Liner card jocks, and crappy music. Sorry to those who think they are wonderful, I am NOT in that camp.

 

[rricci]

All I'm asking for is more variety.
Listening to the radio should be adventure

Most adults want familiar songs, and tune out amazingly fast if too many unfamiliar songs are played on a station.
[/quote]

Maybe I'm wierd, but I lke isening to the lesser knwn tracks.and I know quite a few peple that do that too. I like going on Rhapsody d listening to new (t least to me) stuff to listen to. I have a simle test: I put songs on and go about doing my things. If I stop what I'm doing because of the song, then it's a song that I like. But back to what I was saying, I'm not saying just play the lesser known stuff. But sprinkle some lesser known tracks in the mix. I don't believe it can hurt

 

[LKellerIII]

All I'm asking for is more variety.
Listening to the radio should be adventure

Most adults want familiar songs, and tune out amazingly fast if too many unfamiliar songs are played on a station.

Maybe I'm wierd, but I lke isening to the lesser knwn tracks.and I know quite a few peple that do that too. I like going on Rhapsody d listening to new (t least to me) stuff to listen to. I have a simle test: I put songs on and go about doing my things. If I stop what I'm doing because of the song, then it's a song that I like. But back to what I was saying, I'm not saying just play the lesser known stuff. But sprinkle some lesser known tracks in the mix. I don't believe it can hurt

[/quote]

Count me as equally weird. I'm into my second year with an i-pod, and up to this point, I've downloaded a fairly eclectic mix of jazz, rock, and old pop ("Top 40") songs. But I've noticed that the old pop songs from the 60s and 70s I've downloaded tend to be songs that were minor hits that I loved at the time. Most of these have never been played on Oldies stations, and their original stay on the "Boss 30" (or "Big 30," or whatever) was also brief. Nevertheless, I always liked them, and have thought about them over the years - but never enough to spend $10 in a record store to buy an Oldies CD just so I can get one or two obscure old semi-hits.

So iTunes is perfect - for a buck (sometimes less) I can buy it and have it forever...though in a few cases, I've listened once, and wondered why I liked it at the time.

I've also dowloaded a few great obscure songs that I had forgotten, but been reminded of because I've heard them on old Top 40 air-checks of KHJ or 610/KFRC (via Reelradio or BARM).

But I realize that I'm not the typical radio listener, and now that we have this great new internet resource, it probably makes even less sense for Oldies stations to play minor hits and "lesser known" stuff.

 

[Kelly Watts]

I noted the comment why would anyone listen to oldies. BECAUSE, it is the music we like and grew up with, the probelm with most oldies stations (ESPECIALLY CLEAR CHANNEL STSTIONS) is they play the same 800 song playlist to death. Most of us could give a rodents behind what tested well in thus and so market, it was not OUR MARKET where we grew up listening to the great music on our AM radios from the local 250 or 1,000 watt stations. I did an oldies show for several years that, yes played the bigger songs, BUT also played songs people would call and say "thanks, I have not heard that song in years it was one of my favorites."

 

[airpab]

You are indeed in the minority Ms. Watts...

I'm sure the folks at CBS & KOOL are very happy about that!!

 

[Kelly Watts]

It is MISTER Watts! And I still think radio today is terrible!

 

[SFStatic]

An 800 song playlist on a library format is not a bad number. The biggest enemy in a library format is library burn. The PD has to be religious about moving songs in and out--particularly ones that tend to high burn. That is probably why you are not loving the CC stations...with PD's (if any) covering 3-4 stations, there isn't time to do this right, and the libraries burn badly and therefore the stations suck.

 

[Hunkey Snarkey]

Im not one to count how many songs are on 1260 KYAs playlist, but Gary Mora knows how to do radio.. Its no wonder, he could probably do wonders for any failing oldies station!!!!!!!!!!!!! And without a doubt 1260KYA has the best commercials!!!!!!!!!!!!!! perhaps the PD @ 103.7 should pay attention to Garys success!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its phennominal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Only one other guy whos got Radio in his blood, the one and only James Gabbert! Bay Area radio is where its at ,, Kenny in Concord

 

[DavidKaye]

Count me as equally weird. I'm into my second year with an i-pod, and up to this point, I've downloaded a fairly eclectic mix of jazz, rock, and old pop ("Top 40") songs. [....]

Yer BOTH weird. But then you're both on a web forum talking about the minutiae of radio broadcasting. Most people don't care about radio stations, formats, music selection or any of that. They just want to listen to something familiar or something similiar to another song they like. Most people are not adventurous when it comes to music.

I've put on over 400 live music shows in 12 years, and the shows featuring the more adventurous genres and performers were almost always the worst draw. But if I wanted I could fill up venues with 70s and 80s cover bands. Likewise with radio. Heck, we had the KPIG experiment here. KPIG had an eclectic music mix. It bombed.

Even at its height, the legendary KMPX and KSAN (Tom Donahue's) had tiny ratings compared with KFRC.

 

[mikecroaro]

Folks:

I too very much enjoy the "moderate" hits and "obscure Gems". My IPOD has a large mix of these types are songs and artists with the big hits sprinkled in.

By the way, we're not weird. Our musical taste just runs deeper.

Mike

 

[LKellerIII]

Count me as equally weird. I'm into my second year with an i-pod, and up to this point, I've downloaded a fairly eclectic mix of jazz, rock, and old pop ("Top 40") songs. [....]

Yer BOTH weird. But then you're both on a web forum talking about the minutiae of radio broadcasting. Most people don't care about radio stations, formats, music selection or any of that. They just want to listen to something familiar or something similiar to another song they like. Most people are not adventurous when it comes to music.

I've put on over 400 live music shows in 12 years, and the shows featuring the more adventurous genres and performers were almost always the worst draw. But if I wanted I could fill up venues with 70s and 80s cover bands. Likewise with radio. Heck, we had the KPIG experiment here. KPIG had an eclectic music mix. It bombed.

Even at its height, the legendary KMPX and KSAN (Tom Donahue's) had tiny ratings compared with KFRC.

Well...I'm not sure the KPIG analogy is valid - their Bay Area repeater was a low powered AM. Speaking for myself, I don't care how inventive and eclectic a music format is - if it's on AM, I'm not listening. And in the Tom Donahue days, not many people were listening to FM - so I'm not sure that analogy quite holds up either

But I think your point is correct - I suspect KPIG would have done only marginally better with a decent FM signal.

About a decade ago, the woman in the cubicle next to me at work played KKSF all day. During the mid-day, their "Smooth Jazz" play list (ha, ha) consisted almost entirely of a couple dozen "old school" soul hits from the 70s. You could count on hearing the same few songs (Let's Stay Together, I Heard it Through the Grapevine, Ain't No Mountain High Enough, etc.) every single f**king day. After about a year of this, I finally let my irritation show, and asked her if she realized that she was forcing us to listen to the same songs every day. She looked at me with total confusion - it had never occurred to her, and she didn't care. Sadly, I think she is typical of how most people use radio.

 

[DaveBayArea]

But I think your point is correct - I suspect KPIG would have done only marginally better with a decent FM signal.

What is so drastically different about this market vs. Salinas/Monterey, where KPIG has a marginal signal yet consistently pulls around a 3-share, typically #2 for english-speaking stations? I hear it's way better in the "desirable" demos. Everyone says it won't work here, but it's been a long time since anyone has tried a truly eclectic station. One that you want to listen to just to hear what is going to come out of that radio next. KFOG doesn't count. They're really more of a classic rock station.

I suspect that KPIG on - say 92.7 - would have done somewhat better than the AM, especially since the AM night signal was almost non-existent. But it suffered from lack of localism. San Franciscans really didn't care whether there was a big traffic accident on highway 17 in the Santa Cruz Mountains. I haven't found anything that I enjoy on commercial radio in the Bay Area for a long time, and I have quite a few friends who feel the same way. Are there enough of us to make a dent in the ratings? That, I don't know.

Dave B.

 

[SFStatic]

Since iPods have come up, according to something i read, Apple research indicates that MOST people don't listen repeatedly to much over 100 songs on their iPods, Pads, or Phones. That's about a third of the 280 hits most hit formats run, and a heck of a lot less than 800 songs.

Radio research I have seen over the years has pretty consistently indicated that women tend to like familiar cuts and more repeats, while men gravitate more towards a greater variety.

As an aside, the old Research Group used to run a liner on all their AC client stations-- 'A Better Variety...'
They never said a GREATER variety!!

 

[DavidKaye]

Well...I'm not sure the KPIG analogy is valid - their Bay Area repeater was a low powered AM. Speaking for myself, I don't care how inventive and eclectic a music format is - if it's on AM, I'm not listening. And in the Tom Donahue days, not many people were listening to FM - so I'm not sure that analogy quite holds up either

Several factors here:

(1) KPIG even with its marginal signal, pumped it into San Francisco, a city of 800,000 people, as well as Oakland, a city of 400,000, and Berkeley with 200,000. That's about 1.5 million population right there, and yet they still couldn't draw enough to make the format more viable than a time brokered foreign language format.

(2) KNBR, an AM-only station consistently draws high ratings in the 25 to 49 demos with its sporttalk. In fact it often is the #1 station in that demo weekdays 3 to 7pm. That's an AM station, mind you.

(3) I'll agree that AM is a poor choice for radio broadcasting of any sort today, BUT I'll also say that with niche formats such as classical, sportstalk, etc., people will tend to seek them out even if the signal isn't the greatest. But an eclectic music mix apparently is the niche of niche formats, so tiny in audience as to be worthless to try to program.

She looked at me with total confusion - it had never occurred to her, and she didn't care. Sadly, I think she is typical of how most people use radio.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't lead a horticulture.

 

[DavidKaye]

What is so drastically different about this market vs. Salinas/Monterey, where KPIG has a marginal signal yet consistently pulls around a 3-share, typically #2 for english-speaking stations?

First, for a market with as few stations as Salinas/Monterey, is a 3 share a viable number? Shouldn't it be closer to a 4 or 5 to be considered viable? Second, I suspect that the population mix is different -- more college students and more old hippies, both of whom probably tolerate a wider range of music. But I suspect that KPIG would lose the hippies of they played hiphop and lose the college agers if they ran non-hits by the Electric Prunes. I think KPIG probably has to do a balancing act to make their format work.

Also, there's just the availability of local stations. Probably a lot of Salinas/Monterey stations do little local involvement, whereas KPIG is all over that like a blanket. So, even if they don't like 30% of the music they may be more inclined to listen because it's a local community station.

I hear it's way better in the "desirable" demos. Everyone says it won't work here, but it's been a long time since anyone has tried a truly eclectic station.

KPIG wasn't that long ago. They tried the experiment, for what, 2 years? In fact, they bought co-channel KGA in Spokane to turn it down in order to give KPIG a better signal. And still it didn't work. As to the "desirable" in quotes, well, the fact is that older people tend to believe advertising less than younger people, and thus a lot of advertisers don't consider it worth spending the money to convince them otherwise.

> I suspect that KPIG on - say 92.7 - would have done somewhat better than the AM, especially since the AM night signal was > almost non-existent. But it suffered from lack of localism. San Franciscans really didn't care whether there was a big traffic > accident on highway 17 in the Santa Cruz Mountains.

KPIG had a regular live local Saturday afternoon concert featuring excellent local bands. They also did traffic and weather reports that mentioned the Bay Area -- in fact, they often mentioned the Bay Area first in those reports. So, I think you have no idea what weren't even listening; otherwise you'd have known this.

 

[LKellerIII]

If we're trying to think back to a station with a large eclectic play list, maybe we should consider The City (KKCY) in the 80s. I'll admit that I didn't listen more than a couple of times because I was truly bored by rock music during that time in my life. The City took over 98.9 after The Quake, and lasted a couple of years before James Gabbert purchased it for KOFY-FM.

A small devoted group of rabid fans made it very difficult for Gabbert to acquire the station, and he finally had to agree to retain the same format, though I remember that within a few months, they angrily accused him of breaking that promise.

But other than the core group of noisy devotees, I have no memory of how popular the station was. Maybe somebody remembers, and could address that.

 

[DavidKaye]

If we're trying to think back to a station with a large eclectic play list, maybe we should consider The City (KKCY) in the 80s.

People simply don't like things that fall out of a narrow expected range. This is true not only in broadcasting but in the club scene as well. A gay bar in SF, the Stud, which is celebrating its 45th anniversary (yes, begun in 1966), has had to change with the times in this regard. Used to be that they could just throw parties and everybody would come by -- leather folks, drag queens, straight tourists, cops, truck drivers, politicians, whoever -- and the DJs would play eclectic music mixes. Today that's all different. By necessity they have to have theme nights, where one night might be techno, another might go more toward hip-hop, another would be oldies, etc., along with the promoting the nights for different customers -- club kids, "bears", trannies, etc. In fact it's gotten to the point where places such as the Stud, the EndUp, and other venues have to bring in outside promoters who are specialists in specific audiences and what draws them.

What I'm saying is that the entertainment market has stratified and people simply will not engage in adventurous things. I noticed that in the waning days of the Eagle Tavern, which featured Thursday Night Live, a weekly rock concert. The gay leather guys were usually VERY upset that "their" bar was being turned into a "straight hangout" even though it was one night a week and they were as welcomed as always. But times have changed and people simply won't go outside their narrow perceptions of socialization and entertainment choices.

There was a day when Top 40 stations played the top 40 -- the Tijuana Brass, Petula Clark, Animals, Beatles, Frank Sinatra, Paul Revere & the Raiders, The Association, Jimmy Dean -- you simply can't play that broad a mix anymore.

Today's equivalent would be Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, DJ Kahled, Chris Brown Featuring Lil Wayne & Busta Rhymes, Jason Aldean, Adele, and Beyonce. Nobody's going to play that assortment of hip-hop, torch singing, country, teen idol ballads, and DJ tracks. Nobody's going to play it because nobody's going to listen to it.