Oldies on AM?

[radio009]

> > > That said... the fact still remains for anyone to see
> that
> >
> > > CBS FM was dropping every year in revenues, while the
> > market
> > > was gaining. When an airplane does that, it crashes.
> > Pilots
> > > try to avoid this by course correction. Infinity tried
> to
> > do
> > > this by format correction.
> > TOO BAD THAT PLANE COULDN'T BE CORRECTED AND ALREADY
> CRASHED
> > AND BURNED
> >
> >
> > A bad mistake on Infinity's part jack is a failure and a
> > mistake period
> > If you are from NY then you know how inportant cbs-fm was.
>
> > radio in NY was cbs-fm no offense but i don't think you
> > realize that. if you can't hear NY radio every day or if
> you
> > have just sampled NY stations on certain ocassions you
> can't
> > appreciate the legacy CBS-fm 30+ YEARS I'm sorry it was a
> > little diffrent than your other oldies station.
> >
> > Yes i know the demos issues but 34 million is a dam good
> > billing amount I don't care if the market is increasing or
>
> > if they were down 40% or whatever these numbers mean that
> > are being presented. yes the billing was higher at one
> time
> > but to take a station which AT THE TIME of the switch
> which
> > was still billing well and switch the format was crazy!
> you
> > CAN NOT HAVE predicted the future of CBS-fm PERIOD
> >
> >
> > With all due respect I realize you don't like oldies radio
>
> > it is clear all your posts about oldies staions are
> negative
> > you talk about and how bad the billing is and this and
> that.
> > Oldies radio does have demos issues but that dosn't make
> > them still completly unprofitable.
> > If you don't like oldies radio which you don't just don't
> > listen that's it
> > If you liked oldies radio you would be more optimistic and
>
> > state the positives about it
> >
> > with all due respect it's enough with the negative
> attitude
> > towards oldies radio
>
> With all due respect, I haven't seen one person actually
> offer up a counterargument to DE's points based on anything
> resembling a fact.
>
> Are you really expecting anyone to consider this to be a
> counterargument? All it is is you sticking your fingers in
> your ears and going "la la la not listening!"
>
wow calm down

I wash a little harsh in my first post I appologize

I said 34 million was a good billing #'s i don't care if it is less than they were billing

I don not want to go back and forth arguing our different opinions
we have different opinions on the matter of profitability that's all

I'm done
thanks

 

[davideduardo]

>
> A bad mistake on Infinity's part jack is a failure and a
> mistake period

Maybe. I think ther eis a chance they will make Jack work, even in NY with its more limited fragmentation and unusual geography, commute patterns and lifestyle.

The fact that the replacement was not very good out of the box does not mean what it replaced was any better. At least they have an upside now.

> If you are from NY then you know how inportant cbs-fm was.
> radio in NY was cbs-fm no offense but i don't think you
> realize that. if you can't hear NY radio every day or if you
> have just sampled NY stations on certain ocassions you can't
> appreciate the legacy CBS-fm 30+ YEARS I'm sorry it was a
> little diffrent than your other oldies station.

CBS _was_ a lot of things, but as time went on, it ceased to be thse things to an audience group that advertisers wanted.

People do not listen to a legacy. You are only as good as your last song or set or show.
>
> Yes i know the demos issues but 34 million is a dam good
> billing amount I don't care if the market is increasing or
> if they were down 40% or whatever these numbers mean that
> are being presented.

It is a low number for NY, and way off its peak level. The market is growing, costs are escalating, and the revenue was dropping. I believe they decided to move on before they started losing money.

> yes the billing was higher at one time
> but to take a station which AT THE TIME of the switch which
> was still billing well and switch the format was crazy! you
> CAN NOT HAVE predicted the future of CBS-fm PERIOD

Nobody is predicting the future. However, the trend was obvious for CBS FM. Every year, another percentage... about 4% to 5% to be precise... of the listeners moved into unsalable demos... because they hit age 55. In another couple of years, over 75% of the cume would have been 55+ and unmarketable.
>

> With all due respect I realize you don't like oldies radio
> it is clear all your posts about oldies staions are negative
> you talk about and how bad the billing is and this and that.

I love oldies radio. I currently am in a project to put 10 of them on the air, and we have just finished the 9th one in Dallas. But I don't do 60's oldies. Over the last years, we evolved out of 60's music into the 70's and even 80's. One o fhte stations is the #1 oldies station in LA, in fact.

> Oldies radio does have demos issues but that dosn't make
> them still completly unprofitable.

In transactional markets, it sure does.

> If you don't like oldies radio which you don't just don't
> listen that's it
> If you liked oldies radio you would be more optimistic and
> state the positives about it

there are no positives. People age. Agencies don't buy 55+.
>
> with all due respect it's enough with the negative attitude
> towards oldies radio

I used to program nearly 70 Beautiful Music stations, some in really large markets. The format aged and died. I moved on. I had lots of fun with the "elevator music" which was a real challenge to program well. I am glad I did it. I moved on.

 

[davideduardo]

> we have different opinions on the matter of profitability
> that's all

Billing is not proifitability, it is gross revenue. And given the high costs of doing a major NY station, CBS was probably not very profitable.

 

[radio009]

Maybe. I think ther eis a chance they will make Jack work, I DON'T
> even in NY with its more limited fragmentation and unusual
> geography, commute patterns and lifestyle.
>
> The fact that the replacement was not very good out of the
> box does not mean what it replaced was any better. At least
> they have an upside now.

Correct I agree 100% the replacement was a real crappy choice But oldies 101.1 was preforming better than JACK is. the downside isgoing from a 3.4 to a 1.8is not a good thing any radio "expert"will tell you that believe me OK

infinity even admitted they are "unhappy with what has happened"




101.1 is not 93.1 in L.A. 2 completly different cities and radio lanscapes
infinity messed up there is no upside to losing 50% of you listeners yes they have 1/2 the listeners now as they ahd when they were oldies look @ the numbers
not positive in my book.

>
> CBS _was_ a lot of things, but as time went on, it ceased to
> be thse things to an audience group that advertisers wanted.
>

alright the demos are too old I know but maybee evolving the station to a 60-80's oldies would have beena better choice than jack they would have retained there listeners nad maybee picked up some new ones (a la sunny 1045 philly)
have you listened to cbs-fm since 1972 every day they had legacy to ny radio it meant alot and people did listen form that i know for a fACT.
>
> People do not listen to a legacy. You are only as good as
> your last song or set or show.


wrong wrong wrong cbs-fm still preformed so well because they were Cbsfm with that legacy I don't think you live in NY to be able to go around town and see how big oldies 101.1 really was there was a protest heldafter the format switch at broadway infoprnt of the studios there was a huge outcry all the newspapers and t.v. newscasts had stories on this

listen to mark simone on 77 one sat night u will be more informed on ny radio
wabc and the power that oldies 101.1 had in ny (he is a good jock the show he does is really a amazing show!)
he admitted it was a huge mistake on viacom's part
he said it helps his station through because they do share alot of listeners

> >


> It is a low number for NY, and way off its peak level. The
> market is growing, costs are escalating, and the revenue was
> dropping. I believe they decided to move on before they
> started losing money.

I agree of the peak levelmaybee a little low for Ny (remember la outbills NY)
don't u think they should have waited until they actually started losing money dave before killing something that was still profitable


they were a handful of ny fm's which still billed lower (I don't know which ones off hand I can't remember I'm just curious what were they? i think but not positive ktu,plj,new,wwpr,) if you can list them I'd appreciATE IT


>
> Nobody is predicting the future. However, the trend was
> obvious for CBS FM. Every year, another percentage... about
> 4% to 5% to be precise... of the listeners moved into
> unsalable demos... because they hit age 55. In another
> couple of years, over 75% of the cume would have been 55+
> and unmarketable.

david its called evolotion of the format not complete murder come on u know this
maybee if they moved to something similiar to wsni philly they would have kept there current listeners and you think maybee picked up some from wltw (since i know u love #'s justscored a 7.4) this would make for a good balance and maybee just maybee some more peole would switch over to cbs-fm and wltw would have a sort of competitor.
> >

> I love oldies radio. I currently am in a project to put 10
> of them on the air, and we have just finished the 9th one in
> Dallas. But I don't do 60's oldies. Over the last years, we
> evolved out of 60's music into the 70's and even 80's. One o
> fhte stations is the #1 oldies station in LA, in fact.

I wish you luck and i'm glad you are doing the project
what are the stations?

>
> In transactional markets, it sure does.

so david krth,womc,kluv,wmxj,wods,wlng,wmji are not profitable o right those aren't transitional markets?

>
> there are no positives. People age. Agencies don't buy 55+.

Which is very sad but true I wish agencies would wake up and smell the coffie
the positivez if it is done right with the right balance of music it could work

>
> I used to program nearly 70 Beautiful Music stations, some
> in really large markets. The format aged and died. I moved
> on. I had lots of fun with the "elevator music" which was a
> real challenge to program well. I am glad I did it. I moved
> on.
Elevator music is tuff how did u stay awake

you make some good points david not all of them do I agree with but that's waht makes this fun
we both agree oldies has major demos issues which it does but there are other solutions to killing a profitable station and losing 1/2 your listeners
And I am really glad u are doing your oldies project I'd like to hear about that in your next post it sounds good

thanks

 

[Ivan]

Legacy response.

People do not listen to a legacy. You are only as good as
> your last song or set or show.

David, I'll disagree with you on that point. It is true with younger demo stations (Top 40). The Oldies listeners and especially New Yorkers are very loyal. I think you have to live in New York to understand it. Look at the protests that occurred after the switch. The only other market I have seen do that was in San Francisco when KMEL went from AOR to Soft Rock.

I will agree in smaller markets there has been an exodus from one station to another. Examples:
Tampa:
95YNF dropped AC to AOR and killed long-time 98 Rock. They did it by hiring a lot of 98's on-air staff.
WFLZ switched from Oldies to CHR and abolished perennial market leader WRBQ by playing just about all of the rhythmic top 40 Q105 was too scared to play.

Getting back to CBS, I bet a good portion of their market share is composed of people who have not moved their radio dials in years.

Just for humor: I have actually met people that will listen to the same frequency regardless of the format. I met a person at a remote years ago that (he did not fit the demo) listened to the station because he began listening to the station two formats ago. Go figure.

 

[1290wgli]

> Gee, I´m sorry you do not like to face reality. Anyone who
> has a business that is declining, and probably close to the
> pint of losing money, is going to change it.

You can't predict how a station would have done with a format it didn't have. How does one know that a format targeting 25-54's would have done better? For all we know, they could have been down 60% with your convoluted math.

This is why we have defection to other mediums. They have to rape every penny out of the medium now, since it won't be there in the future. Safe programming is never better than vanilla ice milk. I KNOW I could program you under a table and make you cry for mercy, especially in New York. When you've grown up here and understand the market from NEW YORK's point of view, you can win. When you bring in outsiders....

 

[radio009]

Re: Legacy response.

> People do not listen to a legacy. You are only as good as
> > your last song or set or show.
>
> David, I'll disagree with you on that point. It is true with
> younger demo stations (Top 40). The Oldies listeners and
> especially New Yorkers are very loyal. I think you have to
> live in New York to understand it. Look at the protests that
> occurred after the switch. The only other market I have seen
> do that was in San Francisco when KMEL went from AOR to Soft
> Rock.
>
> I will agree in smaller markets there has been an exodus
> from one station to another. Examples:
> Tampa:
> 95YNF dropped AC to AOR and killed long-time 98 Rock. They
> did it by hiring a lot of 98's on-air staff.
> WFLZ switched from Oldies to CHR and abolished perennial
> market leader WRBQ by playing just about all of the rhythmic
> top 40 Q105 was too scared to play.
>
> Getting back to CBS, I bet a good portion of their market
> share is composed of people who have not moved their radio
> dials in years.

yes 100% true
>
> Just for humor: I have actually met people that will listen
> to the same frequency regardless of the format. I met a
> person at a remote years ago that (he did not fit the demo)
> listened to the station because he began listening to the
> station two formats ago. Go figure.
>

this is what i was trying to say thank you Ivan
you have to have been able to be in Ny and been around town on a daily basis for many years to understand cbs-fm

Allan sniffen said on his ny radio message board he can't remember any format change that has still generated this much negative attention more than 1/2 year after it happened he said its just amazing

he said if infinity had to do it again we'd probly see 92.3 jackfm

 

[davideduardo]

> > Gee, I´m sorry you do not like to face reality. Anyone who
>
> > has a business that is declining, and probably close to
> the
> > pint of losing money, is going to change it.
>
> You can't predict how a station would have done with a
> format it didn't have. How does one know that a format
> targeting 25-54's would have done better?

No one is prescient. However, under your theory, nobody would change anything. There would be no new car designs, no new Campbells soup flavors, no new TV shows. There would be no iPod and no Edsel. No cell phones and no New Coke.

> For all we know,
> they could have been down 60% with your convoluted math.

There is nothing convoluted about the message: things are getting worse as the audience ages. The only answer is to look for a more salable demo. If it does not work the first time, try again.
>
> This is why we have defection to other mediums. They have to
> rape every penny out of the medium now, since it won't be
> there in the future. Safe programming is never better than
> vanilla ice milk. I KNOW I could program you under a table
> and make you cry for mercy, especially in New York.

Well, I just got a combined 11.9 share in LA, with #1 and #2 25-54. Try that for a starter. I could list others, too.

> When
> you've grown up here and understand the market from NEW
> YORK's point of view, you can win. When you bring in
> outsiders....

Last time I heard that was in Argentina. In Buenos Aires, where I am definitely an outsider, and there are 200 stations in the "county" we wnet from nowhere (1.8) to #1 in less than a month, and have been there for the last 72 books.

I heard that in Puerto RIco, where I was an outsider. I had the #1 station for about 30 of the last 35 years, including one incredible 20 year reign, the longest of any Top 50 market FM in the USA.

Bah.
>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Legacy response.

>
> David, I'll disagree with you on that point. It is true with
> younger demo stations (Top 40). The Oldies listeners and
> especially New Yorkers are very loyal.

But the loyalists were all over 55, which is the point. There is no sales opportunity.

> I think you have to
> live in New York to understand it.

Having done radio from Traverse City to Ushuaia and from LA to Karachi, I do not see any difference if you let the listeners needs drive the station. I ask listeners what they want, and deliver as well as possible.

> Look at the protests that
> occurred after the switch. The only other market I have seen
> do that was in San Francisco when KMEL went from AOR to Soft
> Rock.

I have seen many protests, especially when switching classical to other formats. One I saw in a top 15 market generated press for days for a 4 share station. The new format (this was 20 years ago) generated a 33.5 share in its 4th month on the air. We nuked the top billing FM format and station for a never done before anywhere format, and won. We knew that the potential of the old format was zero growth, and moved on.
>
> Getting back to CBS, I bet a good portion of their market
> share is composed of people who have not moved their radio
> dials in years.

It might be true in very old demos, but I looked at the PD Advantage report on CBS FM listeners (pre switch) and they shared with as many other stations as any other station in the 25+ demos.
>
> Just for humor: I have actually met people that will listen
> to the same frequency regardless of the format. I met a
> person at a remote years ago that (he did not fit the demo)
> listened to the station because he began listening to the
> station two formats ago. Go figure.

In a diary review for a Spanish station in Chicago that had been very heritage for decades (WIND) I found about 8% of the cume was from Anglos. All were over 70, and they thought they were listening to 560 still, and, in some cases, talent that was dead for over a decade. Fortunately, 70+ is not a sales demo.
>

 

[1290wgli]

> Well, I just got a combined 11.9 share in LA, with #1 and #2
> 25-54. Try that for a starter. I could list others, too.

I suppose this is a Spanish boradcaster, where there are less options than English speaking listeners.

>
> > When
> > you've grown up here and understand the market from NEW
> > YORK's point of view, you can win. When you bring in
> > outsiders....
>
> Last time I heard that was in Argentina. In Buenos Aires,
> where I am definitely an outsider, and there are 200
> stations in the "county" we wnet from nowhere (1.8) to #1 in
> less than a month, and have been there for the last 72
> books.

Argentina! WOW!

 

[davideduardo]

You make good points... but, as usual, I have some comments and contrasts. ;-)
>
> Correct I agree 100% the replacement was a real crappy
> choice But oldies 101.1 was preforming better than JACK is.
> the downside isgoing from a 3.4 to a 1.8is not a good thing
> any radio "expert"will tell you that believe me OK

The 25-54 is a bit different. While off, the average for the three last oldies books was 1 three share, while the new format is just under a 2.5 right now. Just a little growth and they have parity in 25-54, which is what created the revenue.
>
> 101.1 is not 93.1 in L.A. 2 completly different cities and
> radio lanscapes
> infinity messed up there is no upside to losing 50% of you
> listeners yes they have 1/2 the listeners now as they ahd
> when they were oldies look @ the numbers
> not positive in my book.

Remeber, it is about sales demos. The 55+ can go away, and it generally does not impact revenue at all. The probelm was that the 25-54 was eroding over time, and they have already made up 80% of it with the new format, which has an upside with fine tuning and adaptation. The old one did not.
>
> alright the demos are too old I know but maybee evolving the
> station to a 60-80's oldies would have beena better choice
> than jack they would have retained there listeners nad
> maybee picked up some new ones (a la sunny 1045 philly)
> have you listened to cbs-fm since 1972 every day they had
> legacy to ny radio it meant alot and people did listen form
> that i know for a fACT.

When you talk to the 55 crowd, they do not want 70´s oldies. So you would have lost them anyway. And the younger group may have been found to have attached negative "old" images to CBS FM, making it really uphill.
> >
> > People do not listen to a legacy. You are only as good as
> > your last song or set or show.
>
>
> wrong wrong wrong cbs-fm still preformed so well because
> they were Cbsfm with that legacy I don't think you live in
> NY to be able to go around town and see how big oldies 101.1
> really was there was a protest heldafter the format switch
> at broadway infoprnt of the studios there was a huge outcry
> all the newspapers and t.v. newscasts had stories on this

It was not big in 25-54. Again, listenership does not equate to revenue. Listenership in demos advertisers want does. Most NY business is transactional, meaning it is done on CPP and demo criteria. If you do not meet the goals in delivery vs. price, you do not get bought.
>
> listen to mark simone on 77 one sat night u will be more
> informed on ny radio
> wabc and the power that oldies 101.1 had in ny (he is a good
> jock the show he does is really a amazing show!)
> he admitted it was a huge mistake on viacom's part
> he said it helps his station through because they do share
> alot of listeners

The first jingles I ever had recorded, in 1964, were the WABC jingles. I´ve been in the studio with Dan Ingram, was a friend of Rick Sklaar´s. All taht don´t mean diddly today. I loved WABC. I was 17 at the time.
>
> > It is a low number for NY, and way off its peak level. The
>
> > market is growing, costs are escalating, and the revenue
> was
> > dropping. I believe they decided to move on before they
> > started losing money.
>
> I agree of the peak levelmaybee a little low for Ny
> (remember la outbills NY)
> don't u think they should have waited until they actually
> started losing money dave before killing something that was
> still profitable

None of us know the hard costs. But I believe they wanted to do it before it was too late. A decision was made to move on in some markets, and to reformat in others. Right now, Infinity has hired an AC PD, one of the best in the world, to try to rescue KRTH in LA. But in that market, the modern oldies on KRCD-V beats KRTH by a point and a half in 25-54, and a half point in 12+.

> they were a handful of ny fm's which still billed lower (I
> don't know which ones off hand I can't remember I'm just
> curious what were they? i think but not positive
> ktu,plj,new,wwpr,) if you can list them I'd appreciATE IT

In 2004, the refernece year, KTU and PLJ outbilled CBS-FM, and Power, which was new, was way under it. But Power in 2005 hit similar levels to WQHT, which was 20% over CBS FM in 2004.

Remember, in transactional agency business, the buyers often look for 2 to 4 book averages before making long term commitments, and pay discount rates until there is a guarantee based on history. Power now has that.
>
> > Nobody is predicting the future. However, the trend was
> > obvious for CBS FM. Every year, another percentage...
> about
> > 4% to 5% to be precise... of the listeners moved into
> > unsalable demos... because they hit age 55. In another
> > couple of years, over 75% of the cume would have been 55+
> > and unmarketable.
>
> david its called evolotion of the format not complete murder
> come on u know this
> maybee if they moved to something similiar to wsni philly
> they would have kept there current listeners and you think
> maybee picked up some from wltw (since i know u love #'s
> justscored a 7.4) this would make for a good balance and
> maybee just maybee some more peole would switch over to
> cbs-fm and wltw would have a sort of competitor.

I´ll bet they did some research on vulnerability. Usually, listeners are asked whether they like a certain music blend, and then whether that is available and if it is done well. WLTW may well score high on satisfaction, and be a difficult target. Head to head battles are expensive and harder to win than flankers.
> > >
>
> > I love oldies radio. I currently am in a project to put 10
>
> > of them on the air, and we have just finished the 9th one
> in
> > Dallas. But I don't do 60's oldies. Over the last years,
> we
> > evolved out of 60's music into the 70's and even 80's. One
> o
> > fhte stations is the #1 oldies station in LA, in fact.
>
> I wish you luck and i'm glad you are doing the project
> what are the stations?

KOVE HOuston, KLNO Dallas, KTBT, McAllen, KOMR Phoenix, KBRG San Francisco, KLQV San Diego, KVBE Fresno, KPPN Chicago, KRCD/V LA and a couple of others.
>
> >
> > In transactional markets, it sure does.
>
> so david krth,womc,kluv,wmxj,wods,wlng,wmji are not
> profitable o right those aren't transitional markets?

The smaller the market, the less transactinal business. But WMJI has huge 35-44 numbers, for example. They have, through personality, put the music in second place. It is just a good station and right for Cleveland.

KRTH is a disaster. Total disaster. Look for major changes.

WLNG is a community station, and it could play the songs backwards. It also is probably 95% local buisiness, where demos are far less important.
>
> >
> > there are no positives. People age. Agencies don't buy
> 55+.
>
> Which is very sad but true I wish agencies would wake up and
> smell the coffie
> the positivez if it is done right with the right balance of
> music it could work

Agencies do not determine this. Clients do this, through research, product design, consumer sales data, etc. The agency just follows orders.
>
> >
> > I used to program nearly 70 Beautiful Music stations, some
>
> > in really large markets. The format aged and died. I moved
>
> > on. I had lots of fun with the "elevator music" which was
> a
> > real challenge to program well. I am glad I did it. I
> moved
> > on.

> Elevator music is tuff how did u stay awake

It is an amazingly fun format to program, as it is about mood creation and flow. Plus you got to work with a library in the thousands, you got to be part of syndicators who custom recorded music, and you were part of top FMs in many markets.
>
> you make some good points david not all of them do I agree
> with but that's waht makes this fun
> we both agree oldies has major demos issues which it does
> but there are other solutions to killing a profitable
> station and losing 1/2 your listeners
> And I am really glad u are doing your oldies project I'd
> like to hear about that in your next post it sounds good

We abandoned the 60's except for a handful of timeless songs. Everything is 70's and 80's and some 90's, with "feel" being part of the formula. The core value is persnality delivery and warmth and having a heart.

 

[davideduardo]

> > Well, I just got a combined 11.9 share in LA, with #1 and
> #2
> > 25-54. Try that for a starter. I could list others, too.
>
> I suppose this is a Spanish boradcaster, where there are
> less options than English speaking listeners.

There are 20 signals in Spanish in LA. That is in proportion to the population. The battle is as tough in that sector as out of it.

And remember, there are only 26 Spanish shares, so getting nearly half of them with 4 stations is pretty significant.
>
> >
> > > When
> > > you've grown up here and understand the market from NEW
> > > YORK's point of view, you can win. When you bring in
> > > outsiders....
> >
> > Last time I heard that was in Argentina. In Buenos Aires,
> > where I am definitely an outsider, and there are 200
> > stations in the "county" we wnet from nowhere (1.8) to #1
> in
> > less than a month, and have been there for the last 72
> > books.
>
> Argentina! WOW!

Yes, Wow. The second largest market in the Western Hemisphere, after Mexico City. Much bigger than NY. Cume, 4.2 million just on the Buenos Aires station, over 6 million nationally on a 23 station network.
>

 

[1290wgli]

Re: Legacy response.

> >
> > David, I'll disagree with you on that point. It is true
> with
> > younger demo stations (Top 40). The Oldies listeners and
> > especially New Yorkers are very loyal.
>
> But the loyalists were all over 55, which is the point.
> There is no sales opportunity.

There is if you get the point. Since you don't (as usual) I will explain.

It's about telling the ad buyers that they can have a very small section of an oversaturated demo vs practically all of one demo. There are too many FM stations targeting females 18-34 in NYC (WHTZ, WKTU, WNEW, WLTW, WPLJ) and almost as many targeting males in that same demo (WFNY, WCBS, WQHT, WWPR). You have a couple of 25-54's (WRKS, WQCD, WBLS, WAXQ.. WLTW does well everywhere) The ONLY station targeting (or trying to be inclusive to) an older demo (35-64) is talker WABC and they do it well, for what it is, but that's it.

The 50-64 year old today is much different than the 50-64 year old of 10-15 years ago. When some agency and radio station wakes up and realize this, and stops stereotyping this kind of thing, they will be the only game in town and making alot of money.

 

[1290wgli]

> There are 20 signals in Spanish in LA. That is in proportion
> to the population. The battle is as tough in that sector as
> out of it.



I only see (as legit) KLVE, KXOL, KLAX, KSCA, KUBE, KHJ, KRCD, KLTX, KSSE, KWKW and KTNQ (which, compared to others, has poor 12+ numbers).

That's 11 legitimate, not 20 (and by legit, I have to be able to pick it up downtown on the worst radio known to man). KLYY is a rimshotter and doesn't count (we may as well say that NYC has 4 oldies stations and 2 standards stations if we count rimshotters). That leaves at least 20 for English speakers.

Which is yours?

 

[davideduardo]

> I only see (as legit) KLVE, KXOL, KLAX, KSCA, KUBE, KHJ,
> KRCD, KLTX, KSSE, KWKW and KTNQ (which, compared to others,
> has poor 12+ numbers).

KRCD, KRCV, KLVE, KSCA, KLAX, KTNQ, KXOL, KLTX, KMXE, KBLA (brokered), KWKW, KHJ, KLYY (it 60's much of the metro and has had as high as a 3 share), KBUE, KBUA, KEBN, KWIZ, KSSE, KWKU. The SE zone also has good signals from KDIF and KXSB, and the North has a Lancaster Spanish station that sometimes makes the book.
>
> That's 11 legitimate, not 20 (and by legit, I have to be
> able to pick it up downtown on the worst radio known to
> man).

LA and Orange Counties are huge, and nearly no signal covers it all. And that is the LA MSA. Many limited signals make the top 10, like KSCA and KRCD-V, etc. There are plenty of NY metro "home to market" signals that do not cover the whole market, either. That does not mean they are not competitors.

> KLYY is a rimshotter and doesn't count (we may as well
> say that NYC has 4 oldies stations and 2 standards stations
> if we count rimshotters).

A station that has gotten as much as a 3 share in the MSA DOESN'T COUNT? How droll.

> Which is yours?

KRCD/V, KLVE, KTNQ, KSCA.
>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Legacy response.

> > >
> > > David, I'll disagree with you on that point. It is true
> > with
> > > younger demo stations (Top 40). The Oldies listeners and
>
> > > especially New Yorkers are very loyal.
> >
> > But the loyalists were all over 55, which is the point.
> > There is no sales opportunity.
>
> There is if you get the point. Since you don't (as usual) I
> will explain.
>
> It's about telling the ad buyers that they can have a very
> small section of an oversaturated demo vs practically all of
> one demo.

You have never sold, have you? If you did, you would know that agency buyers, responsible for most of the NY reveneue, do not select demos. the agency client does, and they spend hundreds of millions if not billions on research to identify the prime consumers.

You can not sell an agency demos they have been told NOT to buy.

> There are too many FM stations targeting females
> 18-34 in NYC (WHTZ, WKTU, WNEW, WLTW, WPLJ) and almost as
> many targeting males in that same demo (WFNY, WCBS, WQHT,
> WWPR). You have a couple of 25-54's (WRKS, WQCD, WBLS,
> WAXQ.. WLTW does well everywhere) The ONLY station
> targeting (or trying to be inclusive to) an older demo
> (35-64) is talker WABC and they do it well, for what it is,
> but that's it.

And what they sell is the 25-54 segment. And they have good enough numbers there to come in with nice CPP quotes.

Agencies buy gross ratings points (Grips) and they buy against a specific demo. If the rate matches the goal on point cost, the buy is made. Agencies buy multiple stations to amass reach as well as the desired frequency.

Agency buyers and agencies are not morons. They will cease to see you if you tell them what to do, especially if that contradicts the client's orders.
>
> The 50-64 year old today is much different than the 50-64
> year old of 10-15 years ago.

So? Advertisers do not want 55+, and will tell their agency not to pay for it.

> When some agency and radio
> station wakes up and realize this, and stops stereotyping
> this kind of thing, they will be the only game in town and
> making alot of money.

Again, this is a client dictate. Radio and radio statins have absolutely no control or power in this determination.
>

 

[radio009]

As usual I agree and respect your points but i'll add my comments








, the modern
> oldies on KRCD-V beats KRTH by a point and a half in 25-54,
> and a half point in 12+.

krcd is spanish I want to talk about english oldies stations remember l.a. is different population landscape than NY

2 completly differet markets can't compare

>
> In 2004, the refernece year, KTU and PLJ outbilled CBS-FM,
> and Power, which was new, was way under it. But Power in
> 2005 hit similar levels to WQHT, which was 20% over CBS FM
> in 2004.

okay what fm's billed less than cbs-fm wqcd wqxr ? they were not near the lowest billing fm
>


>


okay maybee they did research on music but there is a demand for 70's music people do like this music
Dave if you look at the numbers cbs-fm got its highest numbers during the mid-days meaning at work listening You said if they evolved a la kfrc wsni the 55+ would go away- david not in NY and not with cbs-fm agin you really have to realize how loyal that fan base was and have been in Ny for years to understand
if they evolved a la wnsi kfrc they would have retained there current listeners many of which listen at work and picked up new offices who are tired of the same boring non jingles presentation on lite



>
> KRTH is a disaster. Total disaster. Look for major changes.

joni caryl as you say a great programer especially for AC stations what are the first noticable changes to kearth since arrival of the new programer the older sounding t.o.h. jingle is reinstated

krth golden years not even comparable to the golden years @ cbs-fm for many reasons
>
>
> WLNG is a community station, and it could play the songs
> backwards. It also is probably 95% local buisiness, where
> demos are far less important.

very true i Couldn't agree more but still a very inportant station in the format of oldies (and a graet one at that)
> >



> It is an amazingly fun format to program, as it is about
> mood creation and flow. Plus you got to work with a library
> in the thousands, you got to be part of syndicators who
> custom recorded music, and you were part of top FMs in many
> markets.

I don't know how u did it I could never listen to those stations
> >

The core value is
> persnality delivery and warmth and having a heart.

YES YES YES

(and loyal fan base!!!)

good luck to you and your stations DO they stream i's love to lsiten

Thanks david

 

[radio009]

> joni caryl

wow that was a senior moment right after i wrote that I said to myself what!

Jhani Kaye is what i was looking to say
sometimes your mind and your hands don't think together one thinks one thing the other types the other thing or something like that

sorry~

 

[davideduardo]

> krcd is spanish I want to talk about english oldies stations
> remember l.a. is different population landscape than NY

Spanish is not a format. It is a langauge. Oldies, or classic rock or country or dance or CHR exist in both languages.

In most things, markets with human beings in them are much more similar than different.
>
> 2 completly differet markets can't compare
>
> okay what fm's billed less than cbs-fm wqcd wqxr ? they were
> not near the lowest billing fm

WRKS, WAXQ, WQCD, WBLS, WABC AM, WPAT FMand WQXR billed less. The first 4 were close to being in a tie, though.

Several of those have had format issues to be resolved or bing discussed.

> okay maybee they did research on music but there is a demand
> for 70's music people do like this music
> Dave if you look at the numbers cbs-fm got its highest
> numbers during the mid-days meaning at work listening You
> said if they evolved a la kfrc wsni the 55+ would go away-
> david not in NY and not with cbs-fm agin you really have to
> realize how loyal that fan base was and have been in Ny for
> years to understand

The loyal fan base was over 55. The TSL and results under 55 was not good, just like sister KRTH.

> if they evolved a la wnsi kfrc they would have retained
> there current listeners many of which listen at work and
> picked up new offices who are tired of the same boring non
> jingles presentation on lite

WSNI is an AC, competing with Jerry Lee. I don't see much similarity at all. Neither do listeners. The oldies listeners in Philly do not give it the time of day.

> > KRTH is a disaster. Total disaster. Look for major
> changes.
>
> joni caryl as you say a great programer especially for AC
> stations what are the first noticable changes to kearth
> since arrival of the new programer the older sounding t.o.h.
> jingle is reinstated

Jahni Kaye.

The station sounds pretty much the same. But he has only been there a few weeks. I doubt any of us have any idea what he will do. Too bad Bill tanner did not get the job... that would have been oldies best chance at reinventing itself for 45-54.
>
> krth golden years not even comparable to the golden years @
> cbs-fm for many reasons

KRTH spent a time at #1 in LA. I can not find a single year where the 4 book average for CBS was good for #1, going back to 1975. I find several for KRTH.

The talent on KRTH in the past, including Morgan and Steele compares in an exact paralle with the CBS talent.

> > WLNG is a community station, and it could play the songs
> > backwards. It also is probably 95% local buisiness, where
> > demos are far less important.
>
> very true i Couldn't agree more but still a very inportant
> station in the format of oldies (and a graet one at that)

Agreed.
>
> > It is an amazingly fun format to program, as it is about
> > mood creation and flow. Plus you got to work with a
> library
> > in the thousands, you got to be part of syndicators who
> > custom recorded music, and you were part of top FMs in
> many
> > markets.
>
> I don't know how u did it I could never listen to those
> stations

I also programmed classical, which is a bitch. Every listener has an opinion.
> > >
>
> The core value is
> > persnality delivery and warmth and having a heart.
>
> YES YES YES
>
> (and loyal fan base!!!)
>
> good luck to you and your stations DO they stream i's love
> to lsiten

WWW.univison.com, click on radio on the left about, then the list of markets comes up. Recuerdo is the oldies station, and KLVE is the AC.
>
> Thanks david
>

 

[1290wgli]

> KRCD, KRCV, KLVE, KSCA, KLAX, KTNQ, KXOL, KLTX, KMXE, KBLA
> (brokered), KWKW, KHJ, KLYY (it 60's much of the metro and
> has had as high as a 3 share), KBUE, KBUA, KEBN, KWIZ, KSSE,
> KWKU. The SE zone also has good signals from KDIF and KXSB,
> and the North has a Lancaster Spanish station that sometimes
> makes the book.

None of the other stations you mentioned show up 12+ in the last book. Again, if I counted rimshotters, NY would have 4 oldies station (WMTR, WKHL, WBZO, WREF).

> >
> > That's 11 legitimate, not 20 (and by legit, I have to be
> > able to pick it up downtown on the worst radio known to
> > man).
>
> LA and Orange Counties are huge, and nearly no signal covers
> it all. And that is the LA MSA.

The Class B FM's cover the entire area. I have no problem witn NYC Class B FM's some 60 miles east of Manhattan.

>
> A station that has gotten as much as a 3 share in the MSA
> DOESN'T COUNT? How droll.

KLYY has a 1.2 (12+ as of today) and it still beats KTNQ (0.6 12+ as of today), which is a 50kw'er, no?

If your 3 share is for a specific demo, please state so instead of just generalizing it.