One reason why even HD FM will fail in the marketplace.

[davideduardo]

So what?

Smart phones are mostly used for everything except talking on the phone. They are miniature entertainment centers, and that means that to the smartphone generations, the smartphone is their radio.

And, since smartphones are going to be the device of choice for listening from now on, the fact that there are no smartphones with HD is significant. And the fact that it does not appear that cellphones can be HD enabled anytime soon without negatively affecting battery life-

Another great pronouncement from the almighty Eduardo! Again, you do not represent the average listener in radio usage nor lifestyle. ;-)

The use of icons and voice commands for music choices are things apparent to folks in the programming side of the industry who do research or look at projects coming out of broader studies that show consumer behaviour (like the Edison and Jacobs projects). You don't have to do too many focus groups to see that the under 40-audience has adopted icon and voice command technology very heavily... and that they are not using discreet radios as much as before. And the ages over 40 or 45 are not far behind.

I would agree that everyone worth their salt in radio is overworked. However, we heard this when they started handing PD duties for a second and third main signals. Yet, smart programmers used their resources and handled the extra duties well. But the fact remains, these are the same programmers who maintain the main channel.

But the amount of attention given to those channels is minimal, and often delegated to far less qualified persons.

Of course! To hand out your "consultant" business cards!

I don't hand out consultant cards or anything similar. Never have. I've been with the same company for 20 years.

Wrong again. (But we are used to these great "pronouncements" from you, spoken as if they are to stand on their own) Does an iPod control era, tempo, texture like Selector? Does an iPod have major market production behind it?

I don't hear frequently refreshed imaging on HD-2s unless they are also on a translators... usually it is the same hastily produced stuff they used a year or two or three ago. Music is updated too late or never, and the Selector or MusicMaster database is very rudimentary in its rules and coding so that it will autoschedule with few errors and not need manual edits.

Again, HD will survive based on the quick path to a translator that it affords many stations and the growing use leased bandwidth for data services, primarily traffic. But it is not going to get any salable listening on the separate subchannels from HD-2 onwards.

HD's strength appears to be in areas where it does not compete with new media. A couple of additional music formats in each market will not make an impact in an era where our smartphones and tablets and dashboards can access thousands. But when HD is used to get a translator for a new format it has value, although this is really a loophole in the ownership rules. And when HD is used to transmit data that has new media applications, such as traffic info, it is also useful. Radio should focus on the areas where HD will make a real contribution.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I've backed off from this thread for a while - time for a couple of points.

First - I am hooked on HD. But the moment the creative formats like oldies and smooth jazz go away - I am GONE. I have no loyalty to the delivery method. I merely use HD while it is providing what I want. My fear is that if HD radio - and therefore HD-2 "stations" ever catch on with the public, oldies and smooth jazz will disappear in favor of more commercial formats. Yet more stuff I have no interest in hearing. So - in that sense - I am basking in an era before HD catches on, and there is something close to creative on it. Or at least something I want to hear. One of two things will happen - either HD catches on and I lost the formats I like, or HD fades away and the stations shut down HD. Either way, my temporary use of HD radio is probably doomed.

Streaming in the car, using radio station apps, is unworkable. I pass through an area with no coverage - the stream drops and I have to press the icon on my phone to get it back. UNACCEPTABLE. I get a call - the stream doesn't come back after the call ends. UNACCEPTABLE. I might as well be listening to HD-2's that only drop for 10 seconds and come back with NO intervention on my part. Or are silenced by bluetooth so I can talk on the car's system. HD-2 comes back automatically. Streaming is a technology in cars that is unacceptable because it requires too much driver intervention to keep it going. Driver distractions are unacceptable at best and dangerous at worst. Radio MUST solve these issues if streaming in cars is to ever have any chance of being widely adopted. Period.

Bluetooth audio connection to the car radio for playing music is poorer fidelity than I like, but is almost completely driver transparent. I personally LOATHE the shuffle mode on iPods, but for those with playlists who like it, they set it before they start driving, and it lasts until they reach their destination. Consumer win as far as I am concerned.

Pandora - I have no idea how it works and don't use it. So I am ill-equipped to comment.

Satellite - trouble free except going under overpasses, the signal always comes back. Of course I pay for it, but I pay ten times as much for cable so I am not going to get on a high horse and complain about paying like a lot of people do on here. I get music I like, the audio quality is fair but so what? Bluetooth audio and certainly HD AM are much worse. Consumer win.

My scorecard for what is trouble free and I use in the car - (1) over the air radio - no stations of interest in range though (2) satellite (3) HD (4) bluetooth (5) streaming. In other words, I go back and forth from satellite to HD. Never use the others because they just aren't ready for prime time. I will end up listening to satellite when HD-2 formats go off the air. Hopefully streaming will be improved before then.

It is about content. I do give DX'ing an honorable mention - except all DX targets from my location are more of the same, boring formats I loathe. My DX equipment gathers dust - unused, along with my C-Quam radios. I expect HD radios to join the dust collectors in a few years.

 

[Wimmmex]

Smart phones are mostly used for everything except talking on the phone. They are miniature entertainment centers, and that means that to the smartphone generations, the smartphone is their radio.

The advertisement on this post make it hard to read, but let's try.

From what we can see....if people have "internet in the dash" they will use it for streaming. Far fewer people will go through bother of connecting it up every time they get into a car.

Radio in the car i like a wristwatch...they don't want to think about it...but want it there...when they want it there.

So, Aare you saying that RF signals are all headed for the great dumpster of life? While I like streaming as much as the next guy, I am a radio guy, who would like to see more RF solutions (free and UN-incumbered) to listening.

And, since smartphones are going to be the device of choice for listening from now on,

Another great pronouncement! From Now ON! LOL! For all we know the device that we carry around will be less of a phone and more of a personal electronic device. What it will do, what we will use it for, etc...it may be more of a wallet (to pay for things) than a phone.

When that is the case...will the only solution to 'radio' be streaming? I hope RF still has a place. We learned that during 9-11 many cell phones didn't work....they were overloaded (many stations didn't work either because their antenna was on top of the WT tower.) However, in places where the (totalitarian) government can "turn off" the internet...this worries me.

And the fact that it does not appear that cellphones can be HD enabled anytime soon without negatively affecting battery life-

You are repeating yourself. Battery technology is/will be changing, chip sizes have decreased over the years, etc., etc. We never know where the technology is going.

The use of icons and voice commands for music choices are things apparent to folks in the programming side of the industry who do research or look at projects

I work in the programming side of the industry...and while icons and voice commands are increasingly popular....the average person is not using them.

There was research that said the TV was going to print out my morning newspaper. ;-)

But the amount of attention given to those channels is minimal, and often delegated to far less qualified persons.

The same "qualified" person is in charge...but yes the attention given to the sub channels is minimal....as it should be. Overspending time on a channel that few are listening to is foolhardy.

I don't hear frequently refreshed imaging on HD-2s...

Then you should get out more! ;-)

Music is updated too late or never...

So what you are saying is Univision doesn't update or refresh their HD-2 channels?

and the Selector or MusicMaster database is very rudimentary in its rules and coding so that it will autoschedule with few errors and not need manual edits.

Not my experience. Maybe that's how they do it at your stations..

Again, HD will survive...

You don't have to keep repeating your beliefs over and over. These are not billable hours. ;-)

But it is not going to get any salable listening on the separate subchannels from HD-2 onwards.

My experience is that it can be used as value-added, a few pointed clients like certain format niches, and time can be leased out rather easily in a major market.

HD's strength appears to be in areas where it does not compete with new media.

Probably right....or where a local niche format is warranted.

But when HD is used to get a translator

You're posting the same stuff over and over....

And when HD is used to transmit data that has new media applications, such as traffic info, it is also useful. Radio should focus on the areas where HD will make a real contribution.

For years many stations used their SCA's to make money too.

Some of the 'data' it can transmit is programming for niche formats and audiences. ;-)

 

[TheBigA]

I have no loyalty to the delivery method.

I think that's a good generalization that applies to most people. People aren't loyalty to delivery methods. That includes AM, FM, and broadcast TV. No loyalty whatsoever. And also, no loyalty to Pandora, Spotify, iTunes Radio, or SiriusXM. You give someone something better, cheaper, easier: They're gone. Those are the rules we ALL live by in radio.

 

[davideduardo]

From what we can see....if people have "internet in the dash" they will use it for streaming. Far fewer people will go through bother of connecting it up every time they get into a car. Radio in the car i like a wristwatch...they don't want to think about it...but want it there...when they want it there.

We all tend to first judge based on our own impressions. Some of us really prefer radios with a dial in the middle and a volume control on one side and a tuning control on the other. But most people under 40 or so don't see it that way. They spend tens of hours a week texting, gaming, listening and viewing on their smartphones and find radios with tuning dials to be far less natural than an app with screen controls that slide.

So, Aare you saying that RF signals are all headed for the great dumpster of life? While I like streaming as much as the next guy, I am a radio guy, who would like to see more RF solutions (free and UN-incumbered) to listening.

We can argue for the robust nature of over the air radio in emergencies, its ease of use and all the other positives but if the two youngest generations want to use a single portable device for everything, it won't endure at the current levels. Technology only rolls backwards in the case of wars, disasters, plagues and such. Otherwise, you can't bring back the past.

Oh, and to those younger generations, connectivity is a snap. They know all about it and find it easier than tuning an Atwater Kent.

Radio has a valuable asset, but it is not the AM and FM dial positions or the steel in the sky. It's the ability to create good curated content. That content is device independent, and has a good chance of surviving in a world with few radios and hundreds of millions of mobile devices.

Another great pronouncement! From Now ON! LOL! For all we know the device that we carry around will be less of a phone and more of a personal electronic device. What it will do, what we will use it for, etc...it may be more of a wallet (to pay for things) than a phone.

As I said, the mobile device will be one's entertainment center. That may include paying for the entertainment, helping to maintain the person healthy enough to be entertained, or whatever happens next. But for the moment and the immediate future, the change... or stampede... is toward smartphones and tablets and away from discreet, single function radios.

When that is the case...will the only solution to 'radio' be streaming? I hope RF still has a place. We learned that during 9-11 many cell phones didn't work....they were overloaded (many stations didn't work either because their antenna was on top of the WT tower.) However, in places where the (totalitarian) government can "turn off" the internet...this worries me.

But it does not worry consumers. When they buy the latest Galaxy or iPhone, they don't think about floods, earthquakes, hurricanes or tornados. They think about how cool the screen is and all the apps they can load.

You are repeating yourself. Battery technology is/will be changing, chip sizes have decreased over the years, etc., etc. We never know where the technology is going.

I am emphasizing a present obstacle for HD's inclusion in those Galaxy and Apple phones. It does not matter whether we have more efficient DACs or better batteries in a few years. The trend is irreversible right now, and it is away from radios... witness how hard it is to find them at retail today.

I work in the programming side of the industry...and while icons and voice commands are increasingly popular....the average person is not using them.

If over 70% of the population has smart phones, if people don't use icons, how the heck do they use them?

Then you should get out more! ;-)

After racking up 3,800,000 miles on just one airline in the last 20 years, I think I get out too much.

So what you are saying is Univision doesn't update or refresh their HD-2 channels?

Nobody does, unless the HD-2 feeds a translator or unless you are an NPR station.

You don't have to keep repeating your beliefs over and over. These are not billable hours. ;-)

I have never charged by the hour since my first job in radio when the rate was $1.15.

Since that time, things have changed. People today do not use radios... they use radio stations that they can get on new media devices. They have a selection of thousands of choices, as well as custom music channels. Traditional radio's task is to create curated music content that is better than algorithm derived streams and to provide it on the device that people use.

 

[landtuna]

First - I am hooked on HD. But the moment the creative formats like oldies and smooth jazz go away - I am GONE. I have no loyalty to the delivery method. I merely use HD while it is providing what I want. My fear is that if HD radio - and therefore HD-2 "stations" ever catch on with the public, oldies and smooth jazz will disappear in favor of more commercial formats. Yet more stuff I have no interest in hearing. So - in that sense - I am basking in an era before HD catches on, and there is something close to creative on it. Or at least something I want to hear. One of two things will happen - either HD catches on and I lost the formats I like, or HD fades away and the stations shut down HD. Either way, my temporary use of HD radio is probably doomed.

Absolutely agree with everything in the above paragraph. I use HD Radio in exactly the same way - content, content, content.

It is about content. I do give DX'ing an honorable mention - except all DX targets from my location are more of the same, boring formats I loathe. My DX equipment gathers dust - unused, along with my C-Quam radios. I expect HD radios to join the dust collectors in a few years.

I sold all my DX equipment several years ago and sadly gave up a hobby that began in the early 50's.

 

[Wimmmex]

With one (or 2) exceptions, I can agree with almost everything you said. (believe it or not!)

If over 70% of the population has smart phones, if people don't use icons, how the heck do they use them?

An icon is simply a picture....or maybe you are using the word interchangeably for a "shortcut"..or what we used to call favorite.

Nobody does, unless the HD-2 feeds a translator or unless you are an NPR station.

NOBODY! LOL! You gotta watch those absolutes David!~

I know of a station where the PD has the APD in charge of the HD-2 and he is very meticulous and passionate about the format and keeping it up.

I have never charged by the hour since my first job in radio when the rate was $1.15.

I should have said "retainer"?

Since that time, things have changed. People today do not use radios...

I would agree that apathy about radio is at an all time high.

> they use radio stations that they can get on new media devices.

Another absolutist statement....and like most absolutist statements is wrong. We know that most people listening to the largest stations in the major markets are listening over-the-air. I would assume that includes Univision stations.

Traditional radio's task is to create curated music content that is better than algorithm derived streams and to provide it on the device that people use.

Are you rooting for (or predicting) the end of an RF solution?

 

[Ai4i]

(want to delete my post here)

 

[KB1OKL]

"Ai4i is Always on the Trailing Edge of Technology!
(how do I set an avatar, I cannot unclick the bubble?)"

I thought you were always on the leading edge of technology?

 

[muiscmike]

I still listen to radio, but often I do so on my ipad. When I do listen to an actual radio, it is in my car.

 

[Ai4i]

I thought you were always on the leading edge of technology?

I have been using the "Trailing Edge" signature for parts of two millenia.
What happened here is that I had replied to a much earlier post, but then realised that this thread has stretched to seventeen (17) pages long and my reply would have been inappropriate.
BTW...now that I am here, the thing I like about HD radio is that I listen to formats that require stations, classical and jazz, not to process (at all?), so after a dozen years with satrad, I cannot tolerate ANY "tst, sh, pfp, klk", none at all, and even HD∞ subchannels offer me the full quieting audio I have come to demand.

 

[KB1OKL]

I have been using the "Trailing Edge" signature for parts of two millenia.
What happened here is that I had replied to a much earlier post, but then realised that this thread has stretched to seventeen (17) pages long and my reply would have been inappropriate.
BTW...now that I am here, the thing I like about HD radio is that I listen to formats that require stations, classical and jazz, not to process (at all?), so after a dozen years with satrad, I cannot tolerate ANY "tst, sh, pfp, klk", none at all, and even HD∞ subchannels offer me the full quieting audio I have come to demand.

I bought a lifetime subscription to XM 4 or 5 years ago and have never regretted that decision. I still listen to analog radio at home but the Satrad is great in the car.

 

[boombox4]

Late to the thread here, but I have to agree with one of the posts by The Big A on the first or second page.

Unless the HD radios / receivers are out there en masse -- whether as headset style, boombox style, clock radio style, in all the car systems, part of the home theater system -- I don't see it as having much more longevity than AM stereo did.

I don't like what a 50 KW AM HD station does to the adjacent channels, but I suppose I could live with it if the radios were available and it would save the band. But I don't see that happening.

But when I go to a department store, like a Walmart, I still see radios. But none with HD.

But perhaps as Mr. Eduardo mentions, the writing is on the wall. In the future, all 'radio' and 'broadcasting' will be received through some device you have to pay $100 a month to use (just like cable TV I guess). The days of free broadcast reception will come to a close. Which is too bad, because that is one of the cool things about OTA radio -- You buy a radio, the only cost after the initial purchase is the batteries.

 

[TheBigA]

You buy a radio, the only cost after the initial purchase is the batteries.

The sad part is that the most logical extension of the Walkman is the FM-phone. And phones have FM chips in them. But the manufacturers refuse to activate them. So we in this country are deprived of a convenience that people in other countries enjoy. The government says it won't require activation, and the cell phone industry is violently opposed without some form of compensation. The radio industry has a program with Sprint, but it's not widespread.

 

[KB1OKL]

Late to the thread here, but I have to agree with one of the posts by The Big A on the first or second page.

Unless the HD radios / receivers are out there en masse -- whether as headset style, boombox style, clock radio style, in all the car systems, part of the home theater system -- I don't see it as having much more longevity than AM stereo did.

I don't like what a 50 KW AM HD station does to the adjacent channels, but I suppose I could live with it if the radios were available and it would save the band. But I don't see that happening.

But when I go to a department store, like a Walmart, I still see radios. But none with HD.

But perhaps as Mr. Eduardo mentions, the writing is on the wall. In the future, all 'radio' and 'broadcasting' will be received through some device you have to pay $100 a month to use (just like cable TV I guess). The days of free broadcast reception will come to a close. Which is too bad, because that is one of the cool things about OTA radio -- You buy a radio, the only cost after the initial purchase is the batteries.

The radios were available "en masse" 5-6 years ago and they bombed, there was so little demand for them that salesmen in places such as Best buy didn't even know what they were, it was not because of ignorance on their part as people here seem to think, it was because NO ONE cared or asked about them. They died a natural death like all unwanted junk that bombs in the marketplace.

 

[TheBigA]

They died a natural death like all unwanted junk that bombs in the marketplace.

At the same time, internet table radios died a similar death. Does that mean no one listens to internet radio?

 

[boombox4]

Which leads to a related question. If an FM stations streams its HD1 & HD2 channels over the internet, does that also count?

Mr. Eduardo mentioned that the younger crowd gets its 'radio' from smartphones. Wouldn't that also include HD1, HD2 channels, etc.?

 

[rbrucecarter5]

At the same time, internet table radios died a similar death. Does that mean no one listens to internet radio?

Internet radios were a product before their time - when they were introduced, broadband internet was not common, and expensive where it was. Internet radio tethered you to the internet with a wire, broadband wifi was not common either.

I don't think streaming will ever be a solution, because it relies in most part on cell phone data plans, which are expensive, limited to a certain number of Gb per month before cutoff, extra chargers, or throttling. People who whine and complain about 12 bucks a month for satellite seem willing, however, to pay outrageous data plans instead, just as people who whine about cable spend as much on data plans and netflix, etc. It doesn't make much sense. Pay satrad, pay cell company, pay netflicks - no matter how you go you PAY.

 

[joebtsflk1]

The sad part is that the most logical extension of the Walkman is the FM-phone. And phones have FM chips in them. But the manufacturers refuse to activate them. So we in this country are deprived of a convenience that people in other countries enjoy. The government says it won't require activation, and the cell phone industry is violently opposed without some form of compensation. The radio industry has a program with Sprint, but it's not widespread.

With the current commission being "cellular-centric" the impasse will continue, and that's a shame.

 

[TheBigA]

Just reading about the new Amazon Fire phone...no FM ability.