Optimod 8600 or Omnia.11 on air?

[SRP]

A lot of interesting responses to my Breakaway post. Some thoughts:

If budget is an issue, a station won't be looking at an 11 or 8600. They'd be looking at a DSPx mini or a O1. And they'd be better off with one of those choices rather than "strengthening" a PC to run Breakaway.

Two PCs with a switcher to run backup? Same deal. Get a cheaper dedicated box. Simpler and more reliable.

And Goran made a very important point:

Now whether any software processor, running on proper hardware and with dedicated I/O, will be able to compete on the air with the offerings from other manufacturer on the market, is a completely different story altogether... And as far as I've seen, no one has properly compared any of these processors yet to be be able to offer any opinion that may hold some value.

Exactly. Maybe when the "dedicated Breakaway box" comes out this shootout will happen. Who knows.

I can tell you this much - at the stations I'm responsible for - I won't be running Breakaway on air for a LONG time. And there's MANY more engineers that share this opinion than not. It's not "resistance" - it's "common sense".

 

[GeneSavage]

There's a station in Tulsa using Breakaway on their translator; & to my ears it sounds better than the "big" stick running an Omnia (not sure which one), when you're in-range.

They had to dedicate a box to it, but as I understand, it just doesn't go down.

Breakaway competes VERY favorably with the big boys. I'd put it on a major market signal (with a backup, yes) in a heartbeat.

 

[richard.vanderveen]

The 2200 can be backup. Or a door stop. Too light for a boat anchor.

Our "doorstop" is still on the air...

LOL

 

[littlejohn]

Foti sez -
>About 10 -12 years ago, Steve Church and I were thinking about the broadcast facility of the >future. We saw a single 'machine' sitting in a corner doing everything, with the exception of >generating RF power needed to feed the antenna. Think about it, in 2010, it's practically here.

Uh, Frank, wanna take a gander inany of my several Continental 802D exciters? They make RF just fine. Rackmounted, so they run a year or three between shutdowns, we just mute them for transmitter maintenance. PC motherboards with 80486 chips. Our concern is, they use the old AT slots, I've no idea where one might find a motherboard with those on it any more. Fortunately, they predate the 'pregnant capacitor syndrome' electrolytics, and show no signs of slowing down. I hope the gnomes of Dallas have a couple of these on the shelf. I might need one one day.

 

[rorban]

I can help settle this. I was in Australia a few weeks back, and there are five boxes floating around there. I did visit a station where the 8600 was on-hand. The result there was the same as posted by 'Jackos.' I won'tmeven ask that you take my word for it. Get the boxes in-house and test them. End of story...

-Frank Foti

Peter van Beusekom, our European sales and support engineer, is now in Australia. Peter is a guy with excellent ears and an outstanding ability to customize presets for the tastes of a given customer. He's had several months to work with the 8600 and to get familiar with its potential. We'll see how this particular rivalry plays out when an Orban factory rep drives the 8600.

Bob Orban

 

[FFoti1]

Foti sez -
>About 10 -12 years ago, Steve Church and I were thinking about the broadcast facility of the >future. We saw a single 'machine' sitting in a corner doing everything, with the exception of >generating RF power needed to feed the antenna. Think about it, in 2010, it's practically here.

Uh, Frank, wanna take a gander inany of my several Continental 802D exciters? They make RF just fine. Rackmounted, so they run a year or three between shutdowns, we just mute them for transmitter maintenance. PC motherboards with 80486 chips. Our concern is, they use the old AT slots, I've no idea where one might find a motherboard with those on it any more. Fortunately, they predate the 'pregnant capacitor syndrome' electrolytics, and show no signs of slowing down. I hope the gnomes of Dallas have a couple of these on the shelf. I might need one one day.

Yup, have seen the insides of those exciters many times. My point was to show how everything can be generated via the PC today, even RF. The comment about 'exception' was in regards to the high power linear amplifier needed to take low wattage RF, at the output of the exciter, and amplify it to the required output level to feed the antenna.

-Frank Foti

 

[jackos]

Same here. Anonymous poster with low post count - credibility 0.


Regards,
Goran Tomas

Gidday Goran Simon here

Last time I checked we worked for the same company!! Igor says Hi by the way. I will post some pictures for those of you who would like to "stroke me".

 

[oldiesstation]

Now this is getting fun.Sounds like you and Goran know eachother.LOL Put some clips up so we can hear that bad boy,even one of "Sroke Me";-). Sorry if I offended you.I will always "Man Up" if I'm mistaken.

 

[gtomas]

Hi Simon,

I wish you had revealed your identity up-front. As you might have noticed, we are a bit skeptical of new anonymous posters here, regardless of what they claim.

It's unfortunate that we started this way so yes, a full story with pictures would definitely help clear up the situation!


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[cgould]

Hi, Simon!

Now I know who you are!

I enjoyed hearing the reports from down under! Can't wait to hear more as units roll out elsewhere!

-Cornelius

 

[Sgeirk]

Breakaway Broadcast is an outstanding product.

Been running it since mid July without a glitch....and it's running airomate RDS, too.

It gets nothing but compliments and puzzled looks on faces when they see the modulation readings and find out what is behind the curtain.

Using the slam/clunk plugin and the challenger stereo enhancer, I would pit it against any processor I've ever heard.

...that said...I haven't heard the O11 or the 8600.

 

[satech]

I have noticed that some of the New York City stations are now sounding noticeably less distorted -- but still very heavily processed -- than they had in previous years, so regardless if the Omnia 11 or Optimod 8600 (or some other box!) is responsible for this, I applaud the improvement, and my ears thank the people in charge.

 

[jesseg]

Now whether any software processor, running on proper hardware and with dedicated I/O, will be able to compete on the air with the offerings from other manufacturer on the market, is a completely different story altogether... And as far as I've seen, no one has properly compared any of these processors yet to be be able to offer any opinion that may hold some value.

Breakaway has been in several shootouts, with representatives from several companies including Orban (Europe) and Vorsis. I guess not organized well enough to invite you, but all the other leading "boxes" were present, with the exception of Sound4 unfortunately. The composite output during one of the largest shootouts was recorded, and is available for playback with MPXTool. But as Frank said... the only way to really know, is to try it yourself.

MPX Tool allows for realtime & recorded comparisons, on a fair playing field that doesn't allow anyone to cheat without getting caught, and it's really not had its time in the spotlight. Yet.

Would I trust my major market station to it? Well no, but if I owned a major market station, the budget would be there for the latest and greatest processor.

Some people in NYC with decent budgets disagree.

The 2200 can be backup. Or a door stop. Too light for a boat anchor.

Wouldn't hurt to have 1-2 decoys to keep em guessing. Or delegate it for production/injest duties.

When I was working in TV production 15-20 years ago, I would have laughed in someone's face if I said "Let me see your editing suite" and they pointed to a PC at a desk.

True, but it wasn't much longer. The Media100 system came out over 15 years ago, didn't it? 8) Time flies.

If budget is an issue, a station won't be looking at an 11 or 8600. They'd be looking at a DSPx mini or a O1. And they'd be better off with one of those choices rather than "strengthening" a PC to run Breakaway.

Two PCs with a switcher to run backup? Same deal. Get a cheaper dedicated box. Simpler and more reliable.

Talking about budgets... I can do a rack mounted 2U that'll run Breakaway with lots of room to spare, for well under $300, without even digging deep. Talkin' just NewEgg.com here, nothing special. So let's say $400 a box including a Marian Trace. Shipped. Two boxes, $800. Plus Breakaway for $200. On-air and backup for a grand. 8) Now what?

But as Frank mentioned, it's best not to just go with super cheapo stuff. Spend like $100 more per box to get a much better board, and it's money well spent.

Peter van Beusekom, our European sales and support engineer, is now in Australia. Peter is a guy with excellent ears and an outstanding ability to customize presets for the tastes of a given customer. He's had several months to work with the 8600 and to get familiar with its potential. We'll see how this particular rivalry plays out when an Orban factory rep drives the 8600.

Then uh... how's about we organize a real shootout, with official reps from whoever wants to come? It's still not as good a test as having it in your own hands, but still... most people don't even know about the ones that happen all the time, especially in Europe. Let's do one in the USA off to the side of NAB or something, RSVP only. Why not? (i'm sure i can think of lots of good reasons myself, simply from a business perspective, so... i wouldn't be surprised if a "well represented" one never happens)

It gets nothing but compliments and puzzled looks on faces when they see the modulation readings and find out what is behind the curtain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb45tJhzmcI

I have noticed that some of the New York City stations are now sounding noticeably less distorted -- but still very heavily processed -- than they had in previous years, so regardless if the Omnia 11 or Optimod 8600 (or some other box!) is responsible for this, I applaud the improvement, and my ears thank the people in charge.

(cough) Many ears and books are thankful of the changes in people's minds more than anything. As has been mentioned, the 8100/XT with one hell of a tune-up (a Sack full of tweaks ) has no problem hanging out on the dial in most markets. And sounds awesome. Loudness with quality be damned should have never happened, but it wasn't anyone's fault. It's just how the timeline slightly diverged for a while, and it's what the consumer was willing to compromise to get what they wanted overall. These growing pains are being dealt with now. And... it's awesome. ;D

 

[jesseg]

Anyways tho... that's (^) a discussion that's already happened before on Radio-Info. I don't doubt it'll happen again, and all the regs will be sick of the reruns.

How about a tech-note with some insight on hardware & software (including the OS), Frank? Bob? Me? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

 

[dannyscott101]

When I was working in TV production 15-20 years ago, I would have laughed in someone's face if I said "Let me see your editing suite" and they pointed to a PC at a desk.

True, but it wasn't much longer. The Media100 system came out over 15 years ago, didn't it? 8) Time flies.

Time flies more slowly when you work in a small market. I did not start editing on an Avid until mid-1998. Before that I was using 1" type-C analog in a small room filled with monitors and an old switcher. (Ampex VPR-80s) I could call it "fun", but it really wasn't...

Now I'm digging old Optimods out of dumpsters and putting them on the air... just for "fun".

 

[gtomas]

Now whether any software processor, running on proper hardware and with dedicated I/O, will be able to compete on the air with the offerings from other manufacturer on the market, is a completely different story altogether... And as far as I've seen, no one has properly compared any of these processors yet to be be able to offer any opinion that may hold some value.

Breakaway has been in several shootouts, with representatives from several companies including Orban (Europe) and Vorsis. I guess not organized well enough to invite you, but all the other leading "boxes" were present, with the exception of Sound4 unfortunately. The composite output during one of the largest shootouts was recorded, and is available for playback with MPXTool.

If you are referring to the Freak Processing day, I was there. It was loads of fun, but not what I call a proper comparison

I know the clips are up on Leif's MPXTool site as well. Nice to get a glimpse of what the processors can sound, when set-up the way someone set them up and played with the music that was recorded there (sorry Dutch guys, but I just can't "process" that polka! ;D). Not near enough to get a feel for what the processor can do, what it actually sounds like, what it can sound like when adjusted differently (which might be miles away from the settings that were used) etc.

What I call a proper comparison is when you get all the processors at your station at the same time. You feed them all with the same audio (your program that you are familiar with), you spend some time getting to know each processor, getting under its skin, learning what it does well, what are the weak points, where can you push it and where you can't... Taking your time as this takes time. It's easy to impress on a 5-minute quick listen, only to find out in the long-term you really can't stand the things you don't even notice a first couple of days.

And after you've done this with all processor, you adjust exactly the same modulation on all of them, put them on the switch and A/B/C compare on-air (or on a separate transmitter). You do both quick switching just to notice the apparent differences in sound texture, but you also leave that switch for half an hour or an hour with one processor and then the other. In the meanwhile, you listen at various locations, with different (large/small, high/low quality) speaker systems you are intimately familiar with as well as those you are not.

In the end, you make a subjective decision based on your preferences. Because of this, your conclusion is very much useless to anybody else... They most likely have different taste, different preferences in what they want, they operate in different markets that requires different kind of performance and their station's programming is completely different as they play different kind of music, have much more or much less talk, have pre-processed their music library or have not and the list just goes on and on...

Which is why someone's general opinion on the processor, I'm sorry to say, really means nothing to you at all. Unless you already know the person well enough to know how it aligns with your own preferences, or you can relate to the experience described. But to have experience, you need to do the above.


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[Sgeirk]

I fully agree...the only way to compare anything is to have them in your hands, in your plant, and on your air with your program material.

I truly hope the 8600 and O11 address an issue that I feel has plagued digital processors since day one: voice.

Breakaway is the first digital processor I've had in my hands that reproduces the human voice without any noticeable grit or distortion.

 

[rorban]

What I call a proper comparison is when you get all the processors at your station at the same time. You feed them all with the same audio (your program that you are familiar with), you spend some time getting to know each processor, getting under its skin, learning what it does well, what are the weak points, where can you push it and where you can't... Taking your time as this takes time. It's easy to impress on a 5-minute quick listen, only to find out in the long-term you really can't stand the things you don't even notice a first couple of days.

And after you've done this with all processor, you adjust exactly the same modulation on all of them, put them on the switch and A/B/C compare on-air (or on a separate transmitter). You do both quick switching just to notice the apparent differences in sound texture, but you also leave that switch for half an hour or an hour with one processor and then the other. In the meanwhile, you listen at various locations, with different (large/small, high/low quality) speaker systems you are intimately familiar with as well as those you are not.

In the end, you make a subjective decision based on your preferences. Because of this, your conclusion is very much useless to anybody else... They most likely have different taste, different preferences in what they want, they operate in different markets that requires different kind of performance and their station's programming is completely different as they play different kind of music, have much more or much less talk, have pre-processed their music library or have not and the list just goes on and on...

Which is why someone's general opinion on the processor, I'm sorry to say, really means nothing to you at all. Unless you already know the person well enough to know how it aligns with your own preferences, or you can relate to the experience described. But to have experience, you need to do the above.

Goran is 100% correct, particularly the part about using the same program material and adjusting them so that the peak modulation is exactly matched between the processors. This requires using a proper modulation monitor. We rely on Belar.

Bob Orban

 

[rorban]

Gidday Goran Simon here

Last time I checked we worked for the same company!! Igor says Hi by the way. I will post some pictures for those of you who would like to "stroke me".

Hi Simon -- Would you happen to be the Omnia dealer for New Zealand and Australia by any chance? The reason I ask is that manufacturers post on this board frequently and sometimes present strong points of view, but board etiquette requires that we reveal our identities and commercial affiliations. This is only fair to the board's other readers.

Bob Orban

 

[FFoti1]

Gidday Goran Simon here

Last time I checked we worked for the same company!! Igor says Hi by the way. I will post some pictures for those of you who would like to "stroke me".

Hi Simon -- Would you happen to be the Omnia dealer for New Zealand and Australia by any chance? The reason I ask is that manufacturers post on this board frequently and sometimes present strong points of view, but board etiquette requires that we reveal our identities and commercial affiliations. This is only fair to the board's other readers.

Bob Orban

Bob,

Most whom post here have not revealed their identities or affiliations. When they do, then it's a whole different scenario.

-Frank Foti