Orban 8100A vs Omnia 3fmt

[wgliradio]

Yeah, but it took almost a decade to get digital right (the Omnia 6 being the first digital processor that beat analog IMHO).

 

[marker102]

Which Omnia did you demo and what did you think of it?

I am demo-ing the Omnia 3fmt right now. Compared to our 8100, it is definitely more wider and deeper in sound. It was very easy to set up and configure, but it doesn't want to give me the sound I am looking for. I am pushing our modulation around 100%, but it seems to sometimes kill and distort some of our elements. That said, I am not a fan of the internal AGC, and will probably go about and find a Compellor or something like that. Response time of the O3FMt AGC is too slow. Also, it seems as if some of the parameters of processing don't do enough. I can change some parameters and not notice much of a difference.To be fair, I am doing this all on my own, and I am not in contact with Omnia's customer service to work with me. I may try to, but my demo time is running out. Somebody earlier mentioned grunge, and I can hear that. However, knowing that Omnia has bigger, better, and more expensive products to offer, I am generally pleased with the unit on what it has to offer, for the price. This model will most certainly be under consideration when the time comes to purchase, especially if I can work to get some kinks out.

 

[tjm_pro]

To be fair, I am doing this all on my own, and I am not in contact with Omnia's customer service to work with me. I may try to, but my demo time is running out. Somebody earlier mentioned grunge, and I can hear that.

I was in the same situation as you a year ago with the 3fmt, do yourself a favor and call tech support and let them help you with adjusting that box. I know you have limited time left on the demo, you'll be suprised what that $3000.00 box can do for you.

To be fair, I am doing this all on my own, and I am not in contact with Omnia's customer service to work with me. I may try to, but my demo time is running out. Somebody earlier mentioned grunge, and I can hear that.

We are running a compellor in front of our discreet STL and the 3fmt's WB AGC relaxed at the TX, it sounds solid..

 

[FFoti1]

I am demo-ing the Omnia 3fmt right now. Compared to our 8100, it is definitely more wider and deeper in sound. It was very easy to set up and configure, but it doesn't want to give me the sound I am looking for. I am pushing our modulation around 100%, but it seems to sometimes kill and distort some of our elements. That said, I am not a fan of the internal AGC, and will probably go about and find a Compellor or something like that. Response time of the O3FMt AGC is too slow. Also, it seems as if some of the parameters of processing don't do enough. I can change some parameters and not notice much of a difference.

A couple of comments:1. The internal AGC responds about the same as a compellor. There is not much difference between the operation of those two. I have done in-depth tests on the compellor and the Omnia's WB-AGC. The time constants are close to one-another, as well as algorithm topology.2. Regarding parameters, some are effected by the dynamic content of the audio, and react based upon if certain signal conditions are met. So, it is possible that some adjustments may not appear to change much, but under certain conditions, they will. This is described in the manual.

To be fair, I am doing this all on my own, and I am not in contact with Omnia's customer service to work with me. I may try to, but my demo time is running out. Somebody earlier mentioned grunge, and I can hear that.

Please be fair to yourself and contact our Tech Support Group, as they can assist you. Explain what type of signature you are looking for, and they will get you there.Thank you for demoing the Omnia.-Frank Foti

 

[wgliradio]

I am pushing our modulation around 100%, but it seems to sometimes kill and distort some of our elements.

Perhaps Omnia tech support can help you, and I would suggest using their recommendations to get the best out of their box before the demo is over.

That said, I am not a fan of the internal AGC, and will probably go about and find a Compellor or something like that.

The Compellor is OK and better than the internal wideband AGC in ALL boxes that have them. If Omnia 3 is where you end up, I would highly recommend it. Of course, an Ariane would be the best option. We had an Ariane in front of our 3 before we replaced it and it helped alot (especially smoothing out the entire texture of the processor... but I have seem the ariane in front of $12,000 processors as well and it is still in our airchain). The 4 band structure in our new processor allows for better low and low midrange management, tonal consistancy and sounds more like a $10k box (with the Ariane in front, just like we had with the 3). Vocals are clearer and "right there"... not lost in the mix. We've gotten more than a few comments from listeners and staff (I always thought that those things were just hype, but I was surprised to be standing in the hall with the GM when a staff member who doesn't know a processor from a toaster came over and said, 2 weeks after we put in the new processor, that the station now sounds "alive"... to quote her... on her car stereo).

However, knowing that Omnia has bigger, better, and more expensive products to offer, I am generally pleased with the unit on what it has to offer, for the price.

I would suggest spending more for an Omnia 5ex for FM if you want a great Omnia product and that winning sound. The Inovonics Omega also deserves consideration in the mid-range price bracket as well as products from Orban and BW. If budget is an issue, there are other processors you should demo in the same price range as the 3. I also look forward to having a chance to demo the Omnia ONE if I max out a credit card

 

[wgliradio]

If I may add..I have NEVER heard a factory preset I love from any digital box. While some come close, you need to really get to know your processor to get the most out of it by reading the manual and understanding which each section does. Simply selecting a preset and basing judgement on that alone can be a huge mistake. Alot of Orbans factory presets can be very dense and it takes some doing to tweak it out. The processor should not be judged on how someone else thinks it should be set, they are merely starting points.

 

[oldiesstation]

omnia site has a couple for the 06 that sound great. .warm comtemp and eclectic...also found a sweet spot on the dsp-extra running the wimp radio preset, but back off the hf clippers and zero comp clip...but as most manuals say, presets are a starting point fromwhich to build.default in the 06 is rocknroll, and its actually sounds pretty darn good...i think the job can get done with NO comp clip, but what some engs do, is yank up the clipper instead of doing adjustment in the mixers or cross over points..

 

[gtomas]

The 4 band structure in our new processor allows for better low and low midrange management, tonal consistancy and sounds more like a $10k box (with the Ariane in front, just like we had with the 3). Vocals are clearer and "right there"... not lost in the mix. We've gotten more than a few comments from listeners and staff (I always thought that those things were just hype, but I was surprised to be standing in the hall with the GM when a staff member who doesn't know a processor from a toaster came over and said, 2 weeks after we put in the new processor, that the station now sounds "alive"... to quote her... on her car stereo).

Don't keep us in the dark - which is that new 4-band processor? Regards,Goran Tomas

 

[wgliradio]

Brand-X processing The point is, you should1) Try every option on the market, because you never know where you'll find alot of features for a low price.2) Contact tech support if you cannot get what you think you should out of your new processor3) Never settle for factory presets. I've often wondered if, when Orban or Omnia shoot out these processors, that Orban will take the time to actually try and make the Omnia processor under test sound better than factory presets and vice-versa. Usually I see "we used preset HOT-WET SX" when picking a setting for the competitor.4) Read manuals, listen to other stations, try to match the sound and then see where you can take YOUR sound one step further. Around here, that means ignoring the mod monitor... but what can you do?

 

[rorban]

If I may add..I have NEVER heard a factory preset I love from any digital box. While some come close, you need to really get to know your processor to get the most out of it by reading the manual and understanding which each section does. Simply selecting a preset and basing judgement on that alone can be a huge mistake. Alot of Orbans factory presets can be very dense and it takes some doing to tweak it out. The processor should not be judged on how someone else thinks it should be set, they are merely starting points.

Optimods have a number of open-sounding presets, which, not surprisingly, typically have "OPEN" in their names . One of the improvements we added in the digital boxes (compared to an 8100/XT2) was to add attack and release time controls for the multiband compression. The most important thing to do when seeking an open sound is simply to use a slow setting in the Multiband Release controlAlso, don't forget that every factory preset is actually 19 different presets, easily accessible via the LESS-MORE control. If you think a preset is too dense with its default LESS-MORE setting, the first thing to do is to try turning down LESS-MORE.Bob Orban

 

[dspxscott]

Welcome along Bob. Nice to see you here contributing on radio-info.Best regardsScott

 

[fm-engineer]

Hey Bob,Nice to see your posts on radio-info! Now for a quick question: When is version 2 going to be posted for the 2300? I have a station that desperately needs the stand alone generator option.thanks,fm

 

[wgliradio]

Optimods have a number of open-sounding presets, which, not surprisingly, typically have "OPEN" in their names . One of the improvements we added in the digital boxes (compared to an 8100/XT2) was to add attack and release time controls for the multiband compression. The most important thing to do when seeking an open sound is simply to use a slow setting in the Multiband Release controlAlso, don't forget that every factory preset is actually 19 different presets, easily accessible via the LESS-MORE control. If you think a preset is too dense with its default LESS-MORE setting, the first thing to do is to try turning down LESS-MORE.

You do, I just think the CHR ones have a relative dense "compressed" sound compared to Omnia's factory "take" on CHR. This doesn't mean compressed is better or worse, it's just a different flavor. It is not how I would process CHR here... right now, in NYC, for the most part, Omnia and that "transparent" compression leaning on limiters and clipper is the flavor... but it is different elsewhere.For me, your less more control doesn't do much since I can get in there and change parameters to make the box virtually sound however I want. It is something very useful for those can be in overwhelmed by all the control offered in advanced menus. Turning over control was something you did wait to do... but I was happy to see it.I like the depth that Optimod 8500 offers for many formats (especially oldies/gold or classic rock) and there are others where I would take the box in a different direction. Welcome to the boards and I do have a question. You once said you weren't nostalgic about your old boxes (8100 etc). I think it is a statement about your legacy that your 25+ year old design is still on many FM & AM stations today and can still be considered VERY competitive when set-up carefully. Just yesterday I was amazed at how much better (2 dfferent engineers remarked as well) that our aux TX sounded with the 9100 (our main has a digital box, I am not going to mention makes and models). Highs were smoother and there was bass sonic texture that isn't there with the digital. IMHO, I thought it was just as open.

 

[gtomas]

You do, I just think the CHR ones have a relative dense "compressed" sound compared to Omnia's factory "take" on CHR. This doesn't mean compressed is better or worse, it's just a different flavor. It is not how I would process CHR here... right now, in NYC, for the most part, Omnia and that "transparent" compression leaning on limiters and clipper is the flavor... but it is different elsewhere.

Funny, the other day I was just thinking the same... How Omnia tends to sound more like a limiting processors (hence the transparency and outlining of transients) while Orban is more of a compression processor. Obviously, if you are in the market where the (let's call it) limiting-style is preferred or it just suits your taste, you will like Omnia more. Digression:Looking at the way commercials and music is being day, with heavy reliance on limiting-type of mastering like Waves, etc. that seems to be the general trend today. Looks like everybody forgot compression and flat-topping is the name of the game. For me, there's just something in that type of sound that doesn't quite sit with me...Anyway, I also agree with you that Orban tends to sound more thicker and that's why I sometimes prefer it. The sound tends to have more "meat" (especially in the bass) and quick transients are removed, which I personally often prefer. This not to say that Orban kills all transients, it doesn't, it just deals with them differently, more in saturation kind-of-way. Omnia goes the other route by enhancing the transients, which can sound very good on some type of programming. The other day I was listening to the jazz show processed by Omnia-6 and I don't think I've ever heard jazz music sound so good on FM. But, probably because of the very same reason, the Omnia-style of processing sometimes sounds to me like it lacks control. Especially on high-end transients and vocals. It sounds like it's been caught off guard and then it spoils the experience for me. To be fair, Frank tweaked one preset for me and reduced this effect to much lesser extent. There's also the difference in bass. I know bass is probably most controversial subject and every likes their differently Orban has more heavy bass, more muscle packed in that's also quite "agile". For me, it sounds like a heavy ball that is very elastic and bounces well. The rhythm is always pronounced with Orban and that's what i like. It's got an "involving" quality to it. The X-brand can also have a bass like this. Omnia, on the other hand, has a sort of cleaner, tightly defined bass. It outlines the texture well and can go very deep. But it doesn't pack as much mass in. It's like a lighter ball of the same size, that moves fast and stops quickly.So again, if you prefer one kind or the other, you will like one processor or the other better. As a standard disclaimer, this is of course all my personal opinion and experience.

Welcome to the boards and I do have a question. You once said you weren't nostalgic about your old boxes (8100 etc). I think it is a statement about your legacy that your 25+ year old design is still on many FM & AM stations today and can still be considered VERY competitive when set-up carefully. Just yesterday I was amazed at how much better (2 different engineers remarked as well) that our aux TX sounded with the 9100 (our main has a digital box, I am not going to mention makes and models). Highs were smoother and there was bass sonic texture that isn't there with the digital. IMHO, I thought it was just as open.

On one station I work for, we still use Orban 8100/XT2 (though I would like to see 8500 there) and it does a job very well. For some reason, wherever I go people tell me they want to sound like us This processor has been tweaked carefully for years and although it's not quite as loud as the newer processors (nor it is set up for loudness) it sounds amazingly smooth and clean. Regards,Goran Tomas

 

[gtomas]

The most important thing to do when seeking an open sound is simply to use a slow setting in the Multiband Release control

Sometimes you can get that "open" quality by reducing attack times in the multiband. While demoing 8400 I tried to make it sound like 8100/XT2 and I ended up slowing down attack times way down from factory settings. That does give kind a bit of a harder sound, but also lets more transients through.Regards,Goran Tomas

 

[rorban]

Hey Bob,Nice to see your posts on radio-info! Now for a quick question: When is version 2 going to be posted for the 2300? I have a station that desperately needs the stand alone generator option.thanks,fm

I can't give you a day-and-date but "very soon." The stereo encoder DSP code works fine, but we still have to run the software through our usual quality control testing to make sure that nothing was broken on the control end.

 

[rorban]

Welcome to the boards and I do have a question. You once said you weren't nostalgic about your old boxes (8100 etc). I think it is a statement about your legacy that your 25+ year old design is still on many FM & AM stations today and can still be considered VERY competitive when set-up carefully. Just yesterday I was amazed at how much better (2 dfferent engineers remarked as well) that our aux TX sounded with the 9100 (our main has a digital box, I am not going to mention makes and models). Highs were smoother and there was bass sonic texture that isn't there with the digital. IMHO, I thought it was just as open.

While I take pride in the fact that our older designs have held up well, as a design engineer, I always want to keep moving forward. This is the only way to stay competitive...and indeed, to stay in business. For example, one of the major advances in the 8500 compared to an 8100/XT2 is in the pre-emphasis limiting--the ability to simultaneously minimize HF loss and to stay subjectively clean. And that's just one of many improvements. As a designer I find DSP to be very liberating. Although the math is harder than in the analog world (pesky trigonmetric functions pop up almost everywhere, turning equations nonlinear), the availability of economically viable pure delay in DSP has opened up an entire new set of design possibilities.For example, there are other posts on this board that refer casually to the "fact" that Orban has added "composite clippers" to its products. In fact, the algorithm we use is not a clipper at all, but is instead a special form of interpolation exploiting look-ahead functionality and using the 38 kHz multiplex subcarrier. This processing could not have been done in analog.Bob Orban

 

[wgliradio]

While I take pride in the fact that our older designs have held up well, as a design engineer, I always want to keep moving forward. This is the only way to stay competitive...and indeed, to stay in business. For example, one of the major advances in the 8500 compared to an 8100/XT2 is in the pre-emphasis limiting--the ability to simultaneously minimize HF loss and to stay subjectively clean. And that's just one of many improvements. As a designer I find DSP to be very liberating. Although the math is harder than in the analog world (pesky trigonmetric functions pop up almost everywhere, turning equations nonlinear), the availability of economically viable pure delay in DSP has opened up an entire new set of design possibilities.For example, there are other posts on this board that refer casually to the "fact" that Orban has added "composite clippers" to its products. In fact, the algorithm we use is not a clipper at all, but is instead a special form of interpolation exploiting look-ahead functionality and using the 38 kHz multiplex subcarrier. This processing could not have been done in analog.Bob Orban

I understand the liberation of digital, however, I marvel at how well the HF limiters in an 8100 handle the strident, overprocessed and clipped music that is out there today.And while I know many will not agree, I can show you MANY engineers in large markets (including NYC) who still don't think a digital processor has surpassed the 9100 (I have not yet heard the 9400, so I cannot comment on how good or bad it is). The digital processor for AM I am using has no sonic sweet spot in the bass and is way too sterile the rest of the way. Some may think that is clean and it is almost TOO clean for my tastes.The 9100 has punch and I find it's more than clean enough vs the digital box and just as loud.

 

[marker102]

Please be fair to yourself and contact our Tech Support Group, as they can assist you. Explain what type of signature you are looking for, and they will get you there.

I don't know what the normal "wait" period is, but I contacted on Tuesday, was told that there was a backlog of calls waiting for tech support, and to leave my name and number, but so far I never got a call back. Maybe I'll try again next week.

Thank you for demoing the Omnia.

Thank you. Overall I am pleased, but if I get a hold of tech support and get this box to scream the way I envision, things will be very good.

 

[FFoti1]

Please be fair to yourself and contact our Tech Support Group, as they can assist you. Explain what type of signature you are looking for, and they will get you there.

I don't know what the normal "wait" period is, but I contacted on Tuesday, was told that there was a backlog of calls waiting for tech support, and to leave my name and number, but so far I never got a call back. Maybe I'll try again next week.

Not sure why you did not receive a response. I will gladly look into this.-Frank Foti