Orban 8282 (Optimod TV) for FM

[dannyscott101]

I think it's great to see some experimentation with processor configurations. It seemed I have met many with the mindset that a certain set of processors should always be used in a similar configuration and connection order to achieve a particular sound.

I look forward to hearing more about these experiments. It would be nice if perhaps you can provide some sample audio for us to critique.

I agree with the 'mindset' thing. There are certain things I would NEVER do, however. I have heard of guys running a set of prisms in front of an 8100A WITH AN XT2!

I don't think I would even do this as an experiment!

 

[WNTIRadio]

"Double clipping" was my biggest concern running two processors together, since I really can't totally defeat the clipping in the 8282. Maybe these clippers are not as hard as the ones in the 8200 firmware?... If so, that also would explain why I could not get competitive loudness when trying to do all the processing on the 8282.

Hmmmm... Have you tried setting the pre/de-emphasis on the 8282 to 50us? It may open up the highs on it, since you're HF limiting anyway on the 2200. Just a thought.

You may also want to disable the 30hz HPF on the 2200, since it's probably being done in the 8282 already. One less filter on the audio. Also is the AGC on the 2200 off?

Have you tried setting the 2 band compressor on the 2200 to full fast, and only letting it do about 1 or 2 db of gain reduction, essentially passing on the processed signal from the 8282 to the HF limiters and clippers on the 2200 roughly unchanged.

I seem to remember something about the filters on the TV units not being as "tight" as those on the FM side as far as overshoot goes, that could be why you lost loudness running the 2200 in quasi-bypass mode.

Meanwhile, I've got the 8100 on the bench and experimenting with both Sonos (which is the basis of the Inovonics Omega) software and some others in front of it in HF limit/clip only mode. So far, it sounds pretty good, but I've got a ways to go with it.

There's a nice XT-2 on ebay right now with the LED meters, but the cash isn't there right now. :-\

An Orban 424 would work nicely for talent headphone processing... you can get that Optimod sound out of it and put some crunch in the cans for the talent. The timing modules are based on the 8100 if I recall right.

 

[stha]

"Double Clipping", this is a very interesting thread. I would be very interested to know opinion of Mr Orban and Mr Foti.

 

[rrsounds]

<snip>
There are certain things I would NEVER do, however. I have heard of guys running a set of prisms in front of an 8100A WITH AN XT2!

I don't think I would even do this as an experiment!

Awwww... come on! Be brave! LOL!

Actually, since Prisms' and the XT2's functions are not redundant, you might find you get results that are very useful (or at least educational!), especially when playing to each box's strengths.

The Prism is a multiband AGC, while the XT2 is a multi-band pre-emphasized peak limiter. Set each one up to do its own job properly and you might be positively surprised.

If there is too much sonic action, just dial back the processing on either or both boxes until the problem is tamed. I had that combination (minus the 8100's wideband AGC) on the air at Z100/New York for a number of years.

Kind Regards,
David

 

[dannyscott101]

Hmmmm... Have you tried setting the pre/de-emphasis on the 8282 to 50us? It may open up the highs on it, since you're HF limiting anyway on the 2200. Just a thought.

I did also consider this, but it sounds sweet enough the way it is that I didn't want to go changing things. Right now the 2200s HF limit lights are almost always inactive. (just tipping once in a while) I can remember fighting a lot of grunge when I tried pushing a lot of highs into the 2200 (back when we had the prisms in front)

BTW, the HF clipping is set at +1.0 on the 2200.

 

[dannyscott101]

You may also want to disable the 30hz HPF on the 2200, since it's probably being done in the 8282 already. One less filter on the audio. Also is the AGC on the 2200 off?

I also did not think of this... I would be more comfortable disabling the 30hz HPF on the 8282. I would think the last piece of gear in the chain should do the critical stuff. I suppose this could open up a bit more low end, depending on the slope of the filter.

 

[dannyscott101]

Also is the AGC on the 2200 off?

Believe it or not, no! I tried both ways and this seemed to sound better with no noticeable artifacts.

I can picture Mr. Orban right now, pursing his lips and his head bowed and moving from side to side; just like my father used to do when I would do something absurd that he clearly did not approve of!

 

[dannyscott101]

Have you tried setting the 2 band compressor on the 2200 to full fast, and only letting it do about 1 or 2 db of gain reduction, essentially passing on the processed signal from the 8282 to the HF limiters and clippers on the 2200 roughly unchanged.

This was part 2.0 of my experiment, but I still could not get any loudness. About 5db seems to be the minimum that I can drive the 2200 to get acceptable results.

I also hope to test this with an 8100 instead of the 2200 (our current backup unit)

 

[WNTIRadio]

Been thinking about it... The 8282 is already doing pre/deemphasis processing. The "conditioned" signal then comes into the 2200 where it receives the preemphasis process again. Have you turned the HF limiting to mostly clipping on the 2200? That would preserve some of the brightness created by the 8282.

I would keep the HPF on in the 8282, as you want the first box in the chain performing that function, so later gain stages don't suck up and subsonic rumble, and then disable it on the 2200.

Also, I don't know if this would work or not, but I have a v1.5 firmware module for the 8200. Can this be plugged into an 8282 to make it an 8200 minus the stereo generator card?

 

[fm-engineer]

Dave,

I had the same set up at a VA 100kW FM from 94-96, but added a CP803 too. My prisms had the so called "WDVE mods." The 803 was at the other end of a Moseley 6020 composite link. The Harris exciter we had was modified by founder of the Gregg Labs boxes. Loud and clean, it was.....
The things I used to do........ ;D

<snip>
There are certain things I would NEVER do, however. I have heard of guys running a set of prisms in front of an 8100A WITH AN XT2!

I don't think I would even do this as an experiment!

Awwww... come on! Be brave! LOL!

Actually, since Prisms' and the XT2's functions are not redundant, you might find you get results that are very useful (or at least educational!), especially when playing to each box's strengths.

The Prism is a multiband AGC, while the XT2 is a multi-band pre-emphasized peak limiter. Set each one up to do its own job properly and you might be positively surprised.

If there is too much sonic action, just dial back the processing on either or both boxes until the problem is tamed. I had that combination (minus the 8100's wideband AGC) on the air at Z100/New York for a number of years.

Kind Regards,
David

 

[dannyscott101]

Been thinking about it... The 8282 is already doing pre/deemphasis processing. The "conditioned" signal then comes into the 2200 where it receives the preemphasis process again. Have you turned the HF limiting to mostly clipping on the 2200? That would preserve some of the brightness created by the 8282.

I would keep the HPF on in the 8282, as you want the first box in the chain performing that function, so later gain stages don't suck up and subsonic rumble, and then disable it on the 2200.

Also, I don't know if this would work or not, but I have a v1.5 firmware module for the 8200. Can this be plugged into an 8282 to make it an 8200 minus the stereo generator card?

Sorry to not respond to this sooner...

Yes, the HF is mostly clipping on the 2200. That's why its HF limit lights almost never light up right now.

When I get up there again, I will disable the HPF on the 2200 and see what happens.

...and yes, all 8200 firmware updates will work on an 8282, making it a 'bare bones' 8200 processor. When I wrote the service guy at Orban, I believe he told me that even the 3.0 firmware module is under a couple hundred bucks. Having never used an 8200, I'm not sure if the 8200 firmware has more 'ability' than the 8282, but I know it has more PRESETS that can be modified with less/more or their individual parameters, certainly making it easier to reach a particular sound.

 

[BROADCAST]

If you replace the 8282 software module for the 8200 v3 software module it will work fine except the serial remote software for the 8200 v3 will not connect,if you replace the 8282 cpu crystal for the lower freq one that the 8200 control card uses,the 8200 v3 pc software program will then work fine !

 

[WNTIRadio]

Having recently upgraded an 8200 to V.3 for a client from 1.5, I would highly recommend spending the couple hundred $ if you have can. It will clean up the clippers noticeably, and you have some other options that aren't available to you now, such as band mix out controls, which can help fine tune the audio going into the 2200. The action of the limiters is better, as is the AGC (which, even though it shows only one gain reduction meter, is actually a 2 band AGC just like the 8100).

It's not my favorite box, but I could get a nice, polished competitive sound out of it.

Somewhere I had written down all the settings I had for a CHR format... If I find them I'll send them over. Naturally, the clippers will be different because you have a 2200 in line after it.

Do you have the slow AGC before the 2 band comp on the 2200 set to off? I don't remember if you said you did or not.

 

[kruxman]

The only problem is that a power outage will cause the 2200 to power back on in the 'operate' mode. This means that I need a good setting in the 2200s CLASSICAL/PROTECT mode that it will default to in case of a power failure. This would mean that at worst there would be a slight loudness loss if the system powers down and back up.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious here, but why not put the processing boxes on an UPS, and you won't have to worry about power failures.

 

[dannyscott101]

The only problem is that a power outage will cause the 2200 to power back on in the 'operate' mode. This means that I need a good setting in the 2200s CLASSICAL/PROTECT mode that it will default to in case of a power failure. This would mean that at worst there would be a slight loudness loss if the system powers down and back up.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious here, but why not put the processing boxes on an UPS, and you won't have to worry about power failures.

There is a UPS there, and the 2200 was in it until it was bypassed for some reason when the engineers were searching a low level hum in the 2200. I believe the problem was cured elsewhere. We have a backup generator that was kicking on and causing spikes that were sometimes blowing fuses (or fusable links?) in the 2200. I absolutely need to get them plugged into the UPS before thunderstorm season hits!

 

[jesseg]

They were hoping to introduce it in a 'box' by the spring NAB show, but I haven't heard if that will still happen or not.

Leif is a busy guy between all of the things he's doing for Linear Acoustic, and the Breakaway box. I can't say if they will launch the Breakaway box at NAB in spring, but I will say that I've barely heard from him in the last 3 weeks. ;D Nudge nudge, wink wink.

The two next boxes with the Omnia nametag on em should both be pretty amazing. I can't wait to hear CG's new core, his dream processor... and Frank's new clipper sounds (and looks on speccy) pretty darn noice.

The 8600 comes out this year too. NAB should be pretty high on the bling bling for the new "big" processors this year me thinks.