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Part 15 FM on a licensed translator?

Nick said:
A pirate could take over a translator by just broadcasting on the same frequency as the original station. There's even a translator on Long Island that frequently translates another station due to tropo interference. The distant station that comes in on tropo is in the same direction as the translated station. The distant station is 50kw equivalent, and the translated station is an LPFM. Is it illegal to rebroadcast another station on a translator because of unexpected interference? The interfering station is 100 miles away from the translator, the LPFM is 15 miles away.

You are supposed to take protective measures to keep unintentional rebroadcasts from happening. During extreme tropo season (and this spring has been nuts) I think it qualifies as an "Act of God." There are some things you can't control.

The only reasonable cure I've found is to send RDS from the originating station. At the translator end, you install a device from a company called Via Radio. It is an RDS decoder that can be programmed to close some relay contacts if it loses your unique RDS header. The relay can be used to shut off the translator. I prefer using it to mute the audio and let a silence sensor shut off the transmitter after a few minutes delay. That way if the station pops back on (as sometimes happens) you don't lose the carrier, you just get dead air.

This works fairly well. The down side is the additional cost. Even a cheap Inovonics RDS encoder is about $500, (yes, I know there are some $100 kits out there, if you are so inclined). The Via Radio decoders are around $400. You will need some relays, and a little ingenuity to hook it up. If you use a silence sensor for a delay, they will add to the cost.

Even with all this, I've found this is not 100% fool-proof, although it is pretty effective at keeping the hijackers and satellite modulators out. Get a strong enough signal bouncing in, and just about anything can happen.
 
I think you know how to reach me if you'd like to talk further. In the mean time, it might be useful to read the entire quote from the FCC's translator rules, rather than the good Inspector's abbreviated version. Since this is public information, and not copyrighted, I think it is OK to paste it here. I think you will discover that there are several loop-holes which are frequently exploited.

Chuck, I am curious as to what rules you think are "exploitable"?

Like Clouseau, I am an engineer and a translator owner, so I follow the rules as precisely as I can.

Jim Bradshaw at the FM branch has denied several of my waiver requests for alternative feed methods in very bad receive situations (nothing unusual about that, so just put up with it), and has made it very clear that non-reserved band translators must be fed an off-air signal received directly off the air at the translator site.

The only way around it is to be well connected with "bridge to nowhere" Ted Stevens.

...And so we struggle on with phased receive antennas and banks of pass/notch cavities.

I am looking forward to the improved signal quality from rebroadcasting the local AM stations!
 
slim101 said:
I think you know how to reach me if you'd like to talk further. In the mean time, it might be useful to read the entire quote from the FCC's translator rules, rather than the good Inspector's abbreviated version. Since this is public information, and not copyrighted, I think it is OK to paste it here. I think you will discover that there are several loop-holes which are frequently exploited.

Chuck, I am curious as to what rules you think are "exploitable"?

Like Clouseau, I am an engineer and a translator owner, so I follow the rules as precisely as I can.

Jim Bradshaw at the FM branch has denied several of my waiver requests for alternative feed methods in very bad receive situations (nothing unusual about that, so just put up with it), and has made it very clear that non-reserved band translators must be fed an off-air signal received directly off the air at the translator site.

The only way around it is to be well connected with "bridge to nowhere" Ted Stevens.

...And so we struggle on with phased receive antennas and banks of pass/notch cavities.

I am looking forward to the improved signal quality from rebroadcasting the local AM stations!

It is not really my job to defend what others are doing. I'm a "technician" not a licensed professional engineer nor am I an attorney. I have been working professionally in electronics for well over 40 years, and as it happens, I am married to an attorney. Perhaps some of that has rubbed off.

I have been informed that the signal must be received at the translator site, and that is what I practice. Not everyone does. Let's look at the rules to see what they hang their hats on:

"(a) FM translators provide a means whereby the signals of FM broadcast
stations may be retransmitted to areas in which direct reception of such FM
broadcast stations is unsatisfactory due to distance or intervening terrain
barriers."


OK, so if "direct reception of such FM broadcast stations is unsatisfactory," how is the translator supposed to get a satisfactory signal at the approved location? I can see how some people view that as contradictory.

(b) An FM translator may be used for the purpose of retransmitting the
signals of a primary FM radio broadcast station or another translator
station the signal of which is received directly through space, converted,
and suitably amplified.


I don't see anything about location of the receiver in that. Do you? It does say the signal must be received off the air. That is easy to using an FM tuner that feeds some type of STL, hard wire, or IP device.

You and I know that is not what the FCC means, but some people interpret it differently. It is fair to point out that the original use for translators was in hilly or mountainous areas where the terrain blocked the signal. Guess what? In many of those early installations, the receiving antenna was on one side of the mountain, and the transmitting antenna was on the opposite side. That is not my definition of co-located, but it seems to have flown with the FCC for many years.

Now, there is this:

However, an FM translator providing fill-in service
may use any terrestrial facilities to receive the signal that is being
rebroadcast. An FM booster station or a noncommercial educational FM
translator station that is operating on a reserved channel (Channels
201–220) and is owned and operated by the licensee of the primary
noncommercial educational station it rebroadcasts may use alternative signal
delivery means, including, but not limited to, satellite and terrestrial
microwave facilities. Provided, however, that an applicant for a
noncommercial educational translator operating on a reserved channel
(Channel 201–220) and owned and operated by the licensee of the primary
noncommercial educational FM station it rebroadcasts complies with either
paragraph (b)(1) or (b)(2) of this section:


This is where the big clue is that something might be wrong with the previous conclusions. The FCC would do themselves a favor by rewriting this so it was crystal clear. Better yet, with all the multitudes of opportunities for stray signals interfering with the input of a translator, I think the public would be better served if the Commission allowed alternate means of reception for all local translators, under the provision that, under normal conditions, it is possible to receive the originating station off the air at the translator location. That would be very simple, and would result in more reliable reception of these stations. It would preclude using satellite networks or IP based distribution from distant stations that can’t ordinarily be received off the air at the translator location. .

The number one complaint I get about the translators I'm associated with is that they tend to go off the air, especially during the spring and early summer when tropospheric ducting is at its peak. The fact of the matter is they are designed to do that. It is to comply with FCC rules. The listening public does not understand that. They think they should be a reliable source at all times. Assuming that one of the objects of being a caretaker of the public airwaves is to be a reliable source of programming. In radio, “always there” is good. It is hard to do that when Mother Nature, somebody’s satellite radio modulator, or even a pirate that thinks it is fun to capture a translator, can make everything go very wrong.
 
You know, Chuck, this is a great discussion topic. While IN THEORY, I agree with your "Whatever means necessary for good service" idea, I'm almost inclined to go the other way.

I'm afraid the "Under normal conditions" idea you write about will be bastardized into something hideous. In fact, I'd contend that has already happened in the reserved band, (Where I think sat fed translators shold not be permitted either. )

I would be willing to acept waivers from white or grey areas. Let's remember the purpose of translators is far beyond what ANY of us use them for.

By design, translators fed OTA are limited by distance. Daisy chaning can increase that. But if they don't work well, they just go away. I've worked for a few folks over the years who could "Remedy" YOUR translator reception issue. (Amazing how much better 300 watts would reach them than 100, when necessary). I'd never do this, and I suspect you wouldn't either, but many operators would. Especially in your situation it would be "Catch me if you can" Based on how close you are, you'd never get busted.

I just fear if they allow satellite fed translators in the commercial band, then they'll ALL be sat fed. And I'd really like to see the EMF's and AFR's of the world migate to satellite anyway. It makes sense for them.

Clouseau
 
It might make sense to set a distance limit from the originating station. Perhaps 125 miles would be reasonable? If you wanted to complicate the matter, you could come up with some kind of formula that took into account the originating stations ERP. It would be simple math and fairly hard to weasel out of. Doing so would still allow people to daisy chain translators, and offer fairly reasonable extended service for stations that are quasi-local. I don’t believe it would encourage new networks of distant broadcasters.

My interest in this argument is not to turn what is currently against the rules into being possible. Rather it is to make what is currently well within the rules a lot more reliable. When the concept of translators was first introduced, audio over IP, 2.4 or 5.6 GHz wireless connections, and the Internet simply did not exist. A lot has changed in the last 50 years. I believe we should use available technology when it is appropriate to improve things. The goal is a better listening experience for the public.

Giving AF, EMF etal. a free pass to increase their empires is not at all what I have in mind. Far from it in fact. The issue as I see it, is rebroadcasting a substandard quality signal. Translators do that all the time and the FCC knows it. Frequently, that would be easy to fix by delivering the signal by means other than from a receiver that is sitting next to the translator's antenna.

On the DFW Boards, there is a thread called something like "Another DFW Pirate?" You should take a look. There is a translator in the area that claims to be rebroadcasting the signal of a 65 watt LPFM that is around 125 miles from them. Yeah sure. Does anyone at the FCC have a map? Do they ever use it? It doesn't seem so.
 
Chuck said:
On the DFW Boards, there is a thread called something like "Another DFW Pirate?" You should take a look. There is a translator in the area that claims to be rebroadcasting the signal of a 65 watt LPFM that is around 125 miles from them. Yeah sure. Does anyone at the FCC have a map? Do they ever use it? It doesn't seem so.

Thats Right theres a Translater With Terrible Audio Quality thats ''Rebroadcasting'' And LPFM
That not even the worlds Strongest Tropo or E-Skip could Make come in over here.
 
One question an FCC man will ask is this. Can you receive the originating station at the translator site?
He may ask you to cut carrier on your originating station for 1 second. Static had best come out of the translator.
 
Timewarp said:
One question an FCC man will ask is this. Can you receive the originating station at the translator site?
He may ask you to cut carrier on your originating station for 1 second. Static had best come out of the translator.

Waiting for static could be difficult if you use an Inovonics 631 translator receiver. http://www.inovon.com/?a=2&s=3&i=13

It has a mute function that makes it go silent when it loses the signal. Depending on how it is connected up, it may also be used to take the translator off the air.
 
Chuck said:
clouseau said:
My favorite translator war story is...

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/info?call=K266AB&service=FX

Ogden UT translated in Elko, NV. Gotta love mountains.

Clouseau

Maybe they really don't have maps at the FCC. I could loan them my trusty Rand McNally Road Atlas.

I know someone who investigated this and they claim it actually is true and does work. 320 miles IIRC. I guess there really is a lot of NOTHING out there.

Clouseau.
 
clouseau said:
I know someone who investigated this and they claim it actually is true and does work. 320 miles IIRC. I guess there really is a lot of NOTHING out there.

Clouseau.

Must be. More power to 'em...
 
Back in the early 1980's KGGI 99.1 Riverside Ca. had a translator at 98.9 located at the studio and 1290 KMEN transmitter site near Highland,Ca. on top of one of the AM towers. The audio was initially fed directly from the studio ! During a routine FCC inspection after the thing had been operational for a considerable period of time they were of course instructed to rebroadcast the main signal from a tuner.
 
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