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Part 15, Internet Streamers-- NOW IS YOUR DAY!
- Thread starter joshzz
- Start date
My caution is NOT AM or FM so much- but inexperienced buyers looking at poor billing stations (lots of am's w/o hope) in a bad economy with dying equipment in poor markets where the business base has been raped by Wal-Mart and is w/o any growth. Then, encouragement to buy, from a broker with a good line of bsm who works for the seller. He only wants your signature on the contract Also, greedy banks and lenders.
A new owner better have a background in (especially) sales, programming (good enough to know the market and leave your cd collection at home), and business background - or be prepared to pay folks who do.
Enthusiasm is good. but make sure you don't jump at the first place you look at. A fool and his money are soon parted.
A new owner better have a background in (especially) sales, programming (good enough to know the market and leave your cd collection at home), and business background - or be prepared to pay folks who do.
Enthusiasm is good. but make sure you don't jump at the first place you look at. A fool and his money are soon parted.
josh said:
This is a thread that contains apples, oranges and radishes. I guess PA_TUNE may have proved something but claiming the opposition must rest because of what he said is an overly bold statement.
We began talking about how mouthy people from the webcasting and Part-15 world should work up some backbone and go buy one of these affordable $80,000 stations that brokers are listing. Any AM station in a top 100 market that is in the top ten in audience will probably sell for a price in the multiple millions and a webcaster or Part 15 operators is probably not able to move into that arena.
I don't want to call him by name.... if he wants to be identified with this "bar room brawl" he can enter on his own... but we have a very shrewd owner of radio stations in my part of the world who started down at the bottom with affordable stations and has developed a rather substantial chain in Georgia and the Carolinas. He says that even in a small county-seat market if an AM station is NOT a strong, dominant heritage station, it is virtually impossible to turn it around. Buy a tumbled-down mistreated FM station and it can be worth the effort and expense to change it from a looser to a winner.
I would think a life's philosophy on how to buy WGN in Chicago might be a little different than buying WABV in Abbeville, SC. Or is that the discussion that has been put to rest?
Goat Rodeo Cowboy said:
I can't say I disagree with that, Cowboy.
I saw the statement, "I study this stuff for a living, Josh -- and in the top 110 markets, you can name on 1 hand the number of AM stations that make ratings in the top 5 stations, let alone a profit.", and I KNEW that it was blatantly false -- not even CLOSE to being true. It's not even true if you only count the top TEN markets. I couldn't let that stand.
As far as the merits of buying a standalone small-market AM -- well, I feel that Cowboy is correct..... unless you can really corner a niche (which a lot of folks have done), it's very difficult to make a go of things without an FM. Even heritage calls can't always make things easy.
But AM radio ain't dead..... not even close. Just look at the numbers in my earlier post.
Coming soon! Cars that will drive themselves and some form of digital broadcasting. FM will
be like the Model T Ford. AM is like the Horse N Buggy.
I am not excited about this. I don't like digital. And, I'm not putting down the Horse N Buggy.
After all, where I came from, there are many who still use the Horse N Buggy.
So, don't let anyone compare those of us who love AM to used car salesmen. And, I know a really
good engineer who decided to turn his back on this modern world. He now has a beard and a Horse N
Buggy. God Bless him and all of you!
be like the Model T Ford. AM is like the Horse N Buggy.
I am not excited about this. I don't like digital. And, I'm not putting down the Horse N Buggy.
After all, where I came from, there are many who still use the Horse N Buggy.
So, don't let anyone compare those of us who love AM to used car salesmen. And, I know a really
good engineer who decided to turn his back on this modern world. He now has a beard and a Horse N
Buggy. God Bless him and all of you!
Timewarp said:
I've had the brakes on for my whole life, regarding technology. Instead of fixing the weak points in our designs, we move
on to new disasters every few years and call it progress. I don't want to have a good relationship with my car dealer and service dept,
I want a car that I can keep going for 40 years if I've a mind to. And I drive a 1965 daily.
I always have thought music sounds better on AM than FM. FM may be much more immune to nose, but just not as musical.
They can't wait to get rid of free OTA in all forms. To he-double-toothpicks with public service.
josh said:
Josh:
Sorry, but you're still cheerleading...and not answering what are very reasonable objections to your point. (And you seem to have plenty of time to answer when it seems someone may be making your point.)
But here are some more of those facts that get in the way: most of those AM stations that are still hugely profitable and are top 5 in their markets are 50,000 watt blowtorches. OR...5 KW Class B's in a metro area whose owners still invest in and market. And there's not one of those you can buy for $75,000.
One of the first things a college textbook on radio broadcasting that's widely available says to people considering station ownership to do is check out the facility, yes. But, then...look at the community it's in to see if the community or the area could actually support a station. Many small towns simply don't have enough business to support a station. (And, Gr8t Oldies knows: the reason the trimulcast he mentions works is that, even though it's lowly rated in the market...barely a 1 to 1.5 share most of the time...the stations are in 3 different cities all at least 20-30 miles apart. Those 3 communities together certainly can support a station full time. So, it's a unique format with a unique set of stations set in unique areas which, together, allow it to work.)
Josh - broadcasting is an expensive business to run and operate. Many of the properties you have described are being sold at a firesale rate for a reason. Perhaps one needs extensive engineering work (like, maybe a grounding system...and they are not cheap.), another one might have equipment out of the 1960's that barely works, another may be a great facility in a small ghost town that has only 3 businesses in it, and you have to drive 30 miles to the nearest WalMart. Like the college textbook says, you have to look seriously before you buy.
Even an FM station in a small town may not make it, if the town can't support it. I am aware of an FM just out of Cincinnati that went through a number of "local" owners for a number of years...because, at that time, the area it was in could not support it.
People who look at broadcasting and think "If I build it, they will come", are often seriously disappointed.
Josh,
What kind of commission is your broker bud with the horrible stations he is selling, paying you to talk so nice?
I owned 4 stations that I bought as dogs and sold for over a million. I worked my butt off and it DID pay off, but the economy, the small towns where we were, and RADIO is alot more difficult, NOW.
I was VERY SUCCESSFUL Thank God!!! BUT...there are LOTS of businesses with MORE and FASTER profit - with alot less work.
I wouldn't get back in.
What kind of commission is your broker bud with the horrible stations he is selling, paying you to talk so nice?
I owned 4 stations that I bought as dogs and sold for over a million. I worked my butt off and it DID pay off, but the economy, the small towns where we were, and RADIO is alot more difficult, NOW.
I was VERY SUCCESSFUL Thank God!!! BUT...there are LOTS of businesses with MORE and FASTER profit - with alot less work.
I wouldn't get back in.
Josh needs to understand the difference beyween fantasy and reality. And yes I know of what I speak. The 30 under 30 story was an even bigger fantasy.
The same holds true for any business if it sounds to good to be true it usually is... These stations are sitting vacant for a reason, and if it were that easy to turn a profit in the radio business the line would be forming around the block for buyers.
I would love to be able to invest in a small station and make a go of it, but having struggled with Internet based radio for a few years and realizing that there are very few people in the streaming side of the business turning any kind of a profit I know that owning a AM or FM would be an even more difficult challenge with the stakes being much higher if things don't pan out.
I would only leave Josh with one simple reason most people won't make that leap... YOU GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR, and most successful stations could spend 75k on promotional materials and toilet paper much less an up to date studio or two...
I would love to be able to invest in a small station and make a go of it, but having struggled with Internet based radio for a few years and realizing that there are very few people in the streaming side of the business turning any kind of a profit I know that owning a AM or FM would be an even more difficult challenge with the stakes being much higher if things don't pan out.
I would only leave Josh with one simple reason most people won't make that leap... YOU GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR, and most successful stations could spend 75k on promotional materials and toilet paper much less an up to date studio or two...
josh said:Many people on this board are blasting my position... they insist radio is dead, or is near dying etc....but they love to participate in this RADIO forum -- they love listening to radio and talking about it, etc.....
maybe radio isn't really dead after all.
On a nationwide (worldwide?) forum 13 people participate and you are ready to declare that as proof there is a lot of interest in radio, as proof radio is not dead.
I'm not ready to declare radio dead, but I see a lot of signs that indicate that radio may be an industry in denial.... unable to interpret the colors and clouds in the sky... borrowing from the language of the sailing crowd.
I just returned from 2,000 miles of driving. The purpose of the trip was a funeral. I had to pack and leave in a hurry so I didn't gather up music to take along, and I also didn't print out lists from Radio-Locator. I punched up the radio many times, and quickly shut it down many times. In 40 hours give or take in the car, I probably had the radio on for maybe 30 to 45 minutes total.
Admittedly, I am a crabby, picky listener. But I am also a curious listener. I would suggest that the average listener is more picky than I am, and less curious than I am.
The media world is being hammered. As I traveled I scanned newspapers and noted they are hurting. Upon our return I drove my wife to a doctors appointment. As I waited I picked up something that from the size and thickness I thought might be a colorful church bulletin. It turned out to be a Newsweek Magazine. Ouch. That hurts.
Yes, Josh, about time I find an evaluation of the radio station business that seems to make sense, I look out and see signs that seem to poke holes in what I thought was brilliant logic.
This thread started out with a challenge to Streamers that this would be a good time to buy a "real" radio station (real is my choice of words). I would propose to you that the world of the single station owner who is there to make an OPERATING profit is so different than the world of large group ownership where appreciation of assets amd assembling of clusters where the value of the group is more than the sum of individual stations added together makes it possible to acquire a station you know can't make an operating profit for 5 to 10 years.
Since the rise and the fall of the stock market value of groups like clear channel is what puts money in the pocket of the decision makers, they sometimes need to go buy some stations because it causes stock brokers and investors to get excited and keep the price of the stock up. For Clear Channel to go out and buy a group of stations may have no true indication that a station you and I might partner up to buy in Staunton, VA or Americus, GA is a operating, money-making prospect for us.
I have never understood what drives EMF and what their goals are. I hope to meet someone one of these days who can decipher that group for me. If a mission group comes to town and buys a building to have a place to evangelize, to "do mission" I would not assume that their purchase means you and I should buy the building next door because it is probably a good business deal for property ownership.
This thread started out with a challenge to Streamers that this would be a good time to buy a "real" radio station (real is my choice of words). I would propose to you that the world of the single station owner who is there to make an OPERATING profit is so different than the world of large group ownership where appreciation of assets amd assembling of clusters where the value of the group is more than the sum of individual stations added together makes it possible to acquire a station you know can't make an operating profit for 5 to 10 years.
Since the rise and the fall of the stock market value of groups like clear channel is what puts money in the pocket of the decision makers, they sometimes need to go buy some stations because it causes stock brokers and investors to get excited and keep the price of the stock up. For Clear Channel to go out and buy a group of stations may have no true indication that a station you and I might partner up to buy in Staunton, VA or Americus, GA is a operating, money-making prospect for us.
I have never understood what drives EMF and what their goals are. I hope to meet someone one of these days who can decipher that group for me. If a mission group comes to town and buys a building to have a place to evangelize, to "do mission" I would not assume that their purchase means you and I should buy the building next door because it is probably a good business deal for property ownership.
LibertyNT said:
The other half of that observation is this: A "real" radio station can actually gross substantial amounts of money, can make profits, and can be an asset that sells for considerable gain over what you paid for it. So far, I don't those things happening with Internet Streaming.
Streaming can be a low-investment way to try out ideas and learn programming and production techniques, and should the financial viability of Internet Streaming blossom one of these days, current participation give you a front row seat to jump in and participate in the parade.
If and when streaming begins to generate substantial revenues, I expect that licensing fees, taxes, legal costs and regulatory burdens will be pretty much equal to that faced by small station broadcasters today.
I don't think radio is going to ever die, it will become a whole lot less commercially viable as other mediums overtake it such as Internet broadcasting which will continue to see significant growth as our world becomes more and more wired.
Newspapers are already feeling the crush of technology and the ones who can't adapt from a print medium to an electronic format are going to fold. Here in Seattle we have already went through this with the Seattle PI going from a print newspaper to a strictly online publication.
As the new technologies emerge radio is going to have to re-invent itself or advertisers and listeners will be passing them over. I think stations who are investing in streaming and video technology now are putting themselves in place to be on the leading edge as the technology wave sweeps over the industry.
Back when television was new and people were calling it a fad, it was the radio broadcasting companies who embraced it and invested in it that became the major television networks for the next 50 years.
We are approaching that kind of a crossroads again with Internet technology and again it will be ones embracing it now who will be the major players for decades to come....
Of course that is just my .02 cents worth... And considering I have an Internet station I am ever optimistic...
Newspapers are already feeling the crush of technology and the ones who can't adapt from a print medium to an electronic format are going to fold. Here in Seattle we have already went through this with the Seattle PI going from a print newspaper to a strictly online publication.
As the new technologies emerge radio is going to have to re-invent itself or advertisers and listeners will be passing them over. I think stations who are investing in streaming and video technology now are putting themselves in place to be on the leading edge as the technology wave sweeps over the industry.
Back when television was new and people were calling it a fad, it was the radio broadcasting companies who embraced it and invested in it that became the major television networks for the next 50 years.
We are approaching that kind of a crossroads again with Internet technology and again it will be ones embracing it now who will be the major players for decades to come....
Of course that is just my .02 cents worth... And considering I have an Internet station I am ever optimistic...
josh said:Radio is so dead that Clear Channel and EMF the biggest owners of stations are trying to buy more and more.
EMF has two studio sites and few employees. Inherently this is not good for radio. They don't rely on ad agencies as we all do , they beg for moeny. They are doing well. If you follow their lead it will take 10 years and A LOT of money to get to that point.
Don't assume ebcause a man with a cow is making money selling milk that you can make money selling milk, with no cow.
Let your dreams lead you in ministry but don't expect profit.
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