Party

[PTWorm]

Will someone please define J.O. for the uninitiated?

In a word, funk. Think Kool & the Gang, Chic, any other funky/upbeat artist from the late 70s and early 80s. Listen online to the aforementioned Mojo 94.9 to get an idea. The format got very hot during the last few years of the 1990s then slowly died away.

 

[The-Major]

Party [Like We Did Back In The 1980s]

Development is important for these stations, as I have said 9000 times!

Here's another format that looked HOT in the '90s, but has since cooled off considerably. They are your all-'80s music stations. Now these stations actually had a bright future, but they were mostly programmed wrong. You've got the entire decade of the 1980s, and it evolved nicely from post-disco 1980 to punk rock 1981 to electronic dance 1983 to R & B 1984 to American rock 1985 to freestyle 1988 to British dance 1989. There were roughly 250 genuine TOP 20 hits for each year from 1980 to 1989. That's about 2,500 real hits from the decade. But what did these stations do ? They essentially played the same 100 to 150 hits over and over again and that's it ! They played a tiny fraction of the hottest hits from the decade ! The format got old and tired prematurely. The 1980s were arguably the peak of the TOP 40 radio and music industry, and these all-'80s stations should have capitalized on it much better than they did. The 1980s evolved, but these stations did not do the same. Nowadays a few of them remain, and none of them are particularly ratings grabbers.

THE MAJOR

 

[top4odj]

Re: Party [Like We Did Back In The 1980s]

Development is important for these stations, as I have said 9000 times!

That's about 2,500 real hits from the decade. But what did these stations do ? They essentially played the same 100 to 150 hits over and over again and that's it ! They played a tiny fraction of the hottest hits from the decade ! The format got old and tired prematurely.

THE MAJOR

Major-

If you've been reading some of my posts (no brainer), this has always been one of my biggest complaints. Radio stations have some of the biggest libraries available, and stuff the idea by only playing 150-300 songs on rotation. This is why i've always said, that if I were a PD for a 70's radio station, i'd utilize as many songs as possible. With all the product out there, you shouldn't be hearing songs for days and in cases weeks. That's where radio lacks bite. Plus the fact, that all the stations are always looking over their shoulders, trying to out-due the competition.

The best way to do that is to not invest so much time in what they're doing, and worry about what is happening in your house. Don't get me wrong. You should keep tabs on the competition, but don't react to every move they make. By doing that, you're just making your station sound/be like theirs. The idea is to make your station unlike the others. There will be things that are the same, because you can't avoid it, but if you do your homework, you should be able to seperate yourself from everyone else.

 

[The-Major]

Re: Party [Like We Did Back In The 1980s]

I'm keeping this thread alive ...

Radio stations have some of the biggest libraries available, and stuff the idea by only playing 150-300 songs on rotation. This is why i've always said, that if I were a PD for a 70's radio station, i'd utilize as many songs as possible. With all the product out there, you shouldn't be hearing songs for days and in cases weeks. That's where radio lacks bite. [/color]

Speaking of radio stations with MASSIVE libraries available, XM's '70s On 7' & '80s On 8' recently picked-up the entire original run of Casey Kasem's "American Top 40" from 1970 to 1988. To celebrate this honour both channels have gone into manic marathon mode all this weekend by airing their respective decade's worth of Casey's shows back-to-back. I've been listening sporadically all day today to both channels. It's why Sunday morning radio was so brilliant back in the day. It's why I do what I do today (manage my web site, participate on these radio boards, etc.). It's why I love hit music and hit music radio.

After this weekend Casey will air a couple of times a week on a set day and time on both channels.

THE MAJOR'S COAST-TO-COAST

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Party [Like We Did Back In The 1980s]

If you've been reading some of my posts (no brainer), this has always been one of my biggest complaints. Radio stations have some of the biggest libraries available, and stuff the idea by only playing 150-300 songs on rotation. This is why i've always said, that if I were a PD for a 70's radio station, i'd utilize as many songs as possible. With all the product out there, you shouldn't be hearing songs for days and in cases weeks. That's where radio lacks bite. Plus the fact, that all the stations are always looking over their shoulders, trying to out-due the competition.

I will give you an experience I had. I was programming a classic rocker in a market of about 18 million in 2001 when another station came into the format. we were playing about 450 songs, not including those in specialty shows and our share was around a 16. The new station came on with, at best guess, about 1,600 songs and positioned themselves as the station with greater variety.

6 months later, we still had a 16, and the variety station had a 1.8. In perceptual research, with 450 songs, we won the variety image overwhelmingly.

"Variety" means many good songs that each listener wants to hear. In gold based formats, most songs that were hits "back then" are no longer hits because people do not want to hear them. When a station thinks they can play all the songs that got any airplay or notice in a certain era, they are playing mostly stiffs.

Some formats, like CHR or hip hop can uses libraries of 100 songs or less... because they are based on currents and recurrents and the songs turn over and burn fast. Other formats may find the sweet spot at 250 or 350 songs... and some may find 750 to 1000 songs that can be played. The only way to know is to ask the listeners. A PD does not select music; the audience does.

 

[top4odj]

Re: Party [Like We Did Back In The 1980s]

The new station came on with, at best guess, about 1,600 songs and positioned themselves as the station with greater variety.

6 months later, we still had a 16, and the variety station had a 1.8. In perceptual research, with 450 songs, we won the variety image overwhelmingly.

"Variety" means many good songs that each listener wants to hear. In gold based formats, most songs that were hits "back then" are no longer hits because people do not want to hear them. When a station thinks they can play all the songs that got any airplay or notice in a certain era, they are playing mostly stiffs.

Some formats, like CHR or hip hop can uses libraries of 100 songs or less... because they are based on currents and recurrents and the songs turn over and burn fast. Other formats may find the sweet spot at 250 or 350 songs... and some may find 750 to 1000 songs that can be played. The only way to know is to ask the listeners. A PD does not select music; the audience does.

I understand your point....BUT....This is where understanding rotations comes into effect. You have your different catagories of songs....Powers, Re-Currents, Golds, etc. Had that new station done it's homework, while not getting the 16 share you did, they may have taken a chunk out of your audience. I feel you can have a 1600 song library.

It doesn't mean you play the 1600 without repeating one till you finish thru the run. It's knowing how to mix in the evil lower half of the music tree with the upper half. This isn't a great example, but the idea is there....When we decided the "Super 16" format for the second coming of 96X in the mid 80's, it was because after the 16, your active listeners didn't care about the rest of the list. This is why we mixed in the older songs a couple times thru the hour. 1) To break up the fast rotation of 16 songs. 2) To break up the monotony of only 16 songs. Stations who keep a tight playlist (a couple hundred songs), face the perception of playing the same songs over and over.

You want to play songs that people like to listen to & you want to throw songs in that they say...I haven't heard that in a long time. Of course i'd rather play a song like Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, and pull out a Convoy or Run Joey Run once in a while to make it appear you're playing alot of songs.

With respect to your last line, Yes, the audience tells you what they like, but the PD makes the ultimate decisions of what gets played. Don't forget, your active callers are a small number percentage of your total listening audience. Above all, I believe it is also based on how you present your station vs how the competition presents theirs.

 

[The-Major]

Re: Party [Like We Did Back In The 1980s]

You want to play songs that people like to listen to & you want to throw songs in that they say...I haven't heard that in a long time.

This morning while listening to a Summer Of 1979 edition of "American Top 40 With Casey Kasem" on '70s On 7' on XM I had one of those oh-so-rare 'Gee - I haven't heard that in a long time' moments. Casey played the up-and-coming big climber "When You're In Love With A Beautiful Woman" by Dr. Hook. Goodness Gracious when that song came on I stopped everything I was doing at the time and just stared in amazement at my XM boombox. The song mesmerized me. It's a beautiful up-tempo love song that (at the time) seemed out of place and out of its league during the peak of the DISCO era, but as I listened to it I could detect a subtle hint of a disco beat in the background. It was like I was 12 years old all over again !

Some 10 to 12 hours after the fact I still can't get that song out of my mind. I should just go ahead and buy "Dr. Hook's Greatest Hits" right now on CD at Amazon ! YES 954 - I know. Click on your link.

THE MAJOR REMEMBERS ...

 

[top4odj]

Re: Party [Like We Did Back In The 1980s]

This morning while listening to a Summer Of 1979 edition of "American Top 40 With Casey Kasem" on '70s On 7' on XM I had one of those oh-so-rare 'Gee - I haven't heard that in a long time' moments. Casey played the up-and-coming big climber "When You're In Love With A Beautiful Woman" by Dr. Hook. Goodness Gracious when that song came on I stopped everything I was doing at the time and just stared in amazement at my XM boombox. The song mesmerized me. It's a beautiful up-tempo love song that (at the time) seemed out of place and out of its league during the peak of the DISCO era, but as I listened to it I could detect a subtle hint of a disco beat in the background. It was like I was 12 years old all over again !

Some 10 to 12 hours after the fact I still can't get that song out of my mind. I should just go ahead and buy "Dr. Hook's Greatest Hits" right now on CD at Amazon ! YES 954 - I know. Click on your link.

THE MAJOR REMEMBERS ...

This is what i'm talking about. You can have the biggest playlist in the world, but it's the execution that makes it work. I'm sure while you heard it for the first time in forever, you wouldn't want to hear it every day...or 3 days. I think you'd tire of it fast. I don't even like hearing my favorite songs ALL THE TIME. It's not how much or how little you have, it's what you do with it that makes the difference.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Party [Like We Did Back In The 1980s]

I understand your point....BUT....This is where understanding rotations comes into effect. You have your different catagories of songs....Powers, Re-Currents, Golds, etc. Had that new station done it's homework, while not getting the 16 share you did, they may have taken a chunk out of your audience. I feel you can have a 1600 song library.

It doesn't mean you play the 1600 without repeating one till you finish thru the run. It's knowing how to mix in the evil lower half of the music tree with the upper half. This isn't a great example, but the idea is there....When we decided the "Super 16" format for the second coming of 96X in the mid 80's, it was because after the 16, your active listeners didn't care about the rest of the list. This is why we mixed in the older songs a couple times thru the hour. 1) To break up the fast rotation of 16 songs. 2) To break up the monotony of only 16 songs. Stations who keep a tight playlist (a couple hundred songs), face the perception of playing the same songs over and over.

You want to play songs that people like to listen to & you want to throw songs in that they say...I haven't heard that in a long time. Of course i'd rather play a song like Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, and pull out a Convoy or Run Joey Run once in a while to make it appear you're playing alot of songs.

With respect to your last line, Yes, the audience tells you what they like, but the PD makes the ultimate decisions of what gets played. Don't forget, your active callers are a small number percentage of your total listening audience. Above all, I believe it is also based on how you present your station vs how the competition presents theirs.

The number of valid songs is determined by research. We determined there were 450 or so broad based hits, ones that were not loaded with burn and negs. The other station was playing 75% burn-outs or stiffs. So 3 ouf 4 songs were wrong, no matter how they rotated them. It did not matter how well they rotated them: 3/4 were stiffs... well-hated songs that were tune-outs.

By the way, I have never played requests, even in the 60's. Research then was done at the sales and jukebox level and today it is done at the potential diarykeeper level.

I work in one format where we find 800 to 900 songs that are good enough to play. But most are in the 250 to 350 range, because that is all there are that listeners do not, in big groups, hate.

The PD makes no decisions that are not first based on listener likes and dislikes, except to add new songs if a format plays currents. The only discretionary issue is if a strong song does not fit the sound of the station, in which case a PD has usually the discretion to not play it... or when they see a song "porpoises" (it goes up and down jin and out of playability) so you keep those in fill or low rotation as they burn if played even minimally. Small decisions, all based on listener input.

I've never seen a format, other than classical, that can tolerate a 1600 song library. The best I have seen is around 800, meaning 1600 would be half stiffs.

 

[inthebag]

I believe the fact that's being overlooked here is that music research can, in some instances, be a useful tool, but it is not the absolute last word some programmers portray it as.

In most auditorium music tests, 450 to 600 songs are tested with a goal of assembling a playlist of about 350. That means in any given era of music, several thousand songs will not even make it to the test. Therefore, you'll never know if those songs are hits or stiffs.

No matter how hard you work to qualify the participants in the study, you can never be absolutely sure you have an honest representation of your audience, or the market at large. Most studies also overload the test with the station's P1 listeners, so you're actually preaching to the choir when you should be looking for ways to make a few converts.

The auditorium test is a very artificial enviroment. Listeners brought in for these tests know they are part of a research study and a large majority of them give answers they think are proper for such a study, rather than what they really feel and think. Even peer pressure from the people around them affects their answers.

Add to that, the questions asked in such a study are incredibly critical, because if you ask the wrong question, you're going to get the wrong answer. In a test I was involved with in Denver some years ago, "Old Time Rock And Roll" hit a passion score that was easily one and a half times bigger than any other song tested, however that song also scored a burn factor of 98%. In other words, a lot of people liked the song, but they were tired of hearing it. If the burn factor had not been a part of that study (and it isn't in a lot of studies) the results would have been greatly in error. In other words, garbage in, garbage out, or as Mark Twain once said; "There are three kinds of liars...liars, damned liars and statistics".

A station's music research strategy must allow for a small dose of reality to come in. As an example, a few years ago, Paul McCartney sold out two nights at the Name-Of-The-Week Arena in Sunrise in less than three days. At that time, no station in the Miami/Fort Lauderdale metro was playing McCartney because he didn't test well. Pardon me, but the fact that about 40,000 people shelled out an average of $50 each to see the man, and a few thousand others would have bought tickets if they could have, says they might want to hear him on the radio every now and then.

No, I am not totally anti-research. I simply believe research will only give you part of the picture, and a possibly skewed picture as well. That's where a talented, skilled PD or MD's gut comes in. And, as it was so well stated earlier, music is only a part of a winning station. Execution, personality, stationality, imaging, street visibility, promotional stance and a number of other factors determine a station's success, no matter what the music format may be.

I often think back to what a PD I worked for in the 70's always said..."If we could write a book on exactly how to program a winning station without any guesswork, we'd all be gazillionaires, because whenever you think you know exactly what the listeners want, they'll be more than happy to show you just how wrong you can be". Unfortunately, some programmers today think they wrote that book, and they continue to recite their "absolute truths" as audience numbers decline.

By the way David, you said you programmed a classic rocker in a market of 18 million back in 2001. Currently, Arbitron shows New York (the #1 market) with a population of 15,332,000. So where was this market of 18 mil?

 

[davideduardo]

I believe the fact that's being overlooked here is that music research can, in some instances, be a useful tool, but it is not the absolute last word some programmers portray it as.

In most auditorium music tests, 450 to 600 songs are tested with a goal of assembling a playlist of about 350. That means in any given era of music, several thousand songs will not even make it to the test. Therefore, you'll never know if those songs are hits or stiffs.

No matter how hard you work to qualify the participants in the study, you can never be absolutely sure you have an honest representation of your audience, or the market at large. Most studies also overload the test with the station's P1 listeners, so you're actually preaching to the choir when you should be looking for ways to make a few converts.

The auditorium test is a very artificial enviroment. Listeners brought in for these tests know they are part of a research study and a large majority of them give answers they think are proper for such a study, rather than what they really feel and think. Even peer pressure from the people around them affects their answers.

Add to that, the questions asked in such a study are incredibly critical, because if you ask the wrong question, you're going to get the wrong answer. In a test I was involved with in Denver some years ago, "Old Time Rock And Roll" hit a passion score that was easily one and a half times bigger than any other song tested, however that song also scored a burn factor of 98%. In other words, a lot of people liked the song, but they were tired of hearing it. If the burn factor had not been a part of that study (and it isn't in a lot of studies) the results would have been greatly in error. In other words, garbage in, garbage out, or as Mark Twain once said; "There are three kinds of liars...liars, damned liars and statistics".

A station's music research strategy must allow for a small dose of reality to come in. As an example, a few years ago, Paul McCartney sold out two nights at the Name-Of-The-Week Arena in Sunrise in less than three days. At that time, no station in the Miami/Fort Lauderdale metro was playing McCartney because he didn't test well. Pardon me, but the fact that about 40,000 people shelled out an average of $50 each to see the man, and a few thousand others would have bought tickets if they could have, says they might want to hear him on the radio every now and then.

No, I am not totally anti-research. I simply believe research will only give you part of the picture, and a possibly skewed picture as well. That's where a talented, skilled PD or MD's gut comes in. And, as it was so well stated earlier, music is only a part of a winning station. Execution, personality, stationality, imaging, street visibility, promotional stance and a number of other factors determine a station's success, no matter what the music format may be.

I often think back to what a PD I worked for in the 70's always said..."If we could write a book on exactly how to program a winning station without any guesswork, we'd all be gazillionaires, because whenever you think you know exactly what the listeners want, they'll be more than happy to show you just how wrong you can be". Unfortunately, some programmers today think they wrote that book, and they continue to recite their "absolute truths" as audience numbers decline.

By the way David, you said you programmed a classic rocker in a market of 18 million back in 2001. Currently, Arbitron shows New York (the #1 market) with a population of 15,332,000. So where was this market of 18 mil?

I have done AMTs with as few as 250 songs (CHR derivative) and as many as 1,600. There is no set length, and no set goal of acceptable songs. However, once you test several times, you start realizing which songs never test, which test after resting, and which always perform. Each format, even in far-apart markets, has the same core number of songs, and what makes each market different is the amount of play and familiarity created by the entire competitive array over all the years the songs have been available.

Every time we test, we put in "what if" songs. Hundreds and hundreds of them get tried just on the chanc they may work. As I said, when you see the same song score a 70% rejection (hate and dislike) every time, you stop testing it... but we constantly look for songs that might fit and might test.

At music tests, listeners are told that they can affect the music they hear on the radio. They are empowered to vote the way they feel, not the way th eperson next to them feels, not the way thier wife or husband or brother or friend feels. They truly get the fact that they are indicating how much or how little they owuld like to hear the song on the radio today.

Some tests score subjective values. I prefer those that simply score, 1 to 100, how much you would like to hear the song. And then follow up with a test at least every 6 months, more in bigger markets... I have some that test 6 times a year!

Ah, the concerts vs. radio airplay issue. Talking about Miami, we have a market of nearly 4 million. 40 thousand at a concert is 1%. But more than that, it is less than a 15th of the cume of the top cuming station in the market and less than a thenth of the cume of, let's say, Y-100. We have no way of knowing which songs, if any, the bulk of an audience may want to hear. In fact, we do not know if any of the attendees expects or even wants to hear on the radio. I have been to plenty of concerts where I had no interest in hearing hte songs on the radio, but liket the concert environment considerably. This argument also fits the "they are playing it at all the clubs" comment, too. Certainly, Cd sales, concerts, clubs, etc., are part of the things one should know about. But, mostly, you want to know about how to improve the radio listening experience.

There are many other factors. What Bill Tanner calls "the glue" that holds a station together, including talent, degree of personality, imaging, signal, processing, promotion, the competitive array, etc. But you can not have a music based station with music that is not right.

If we give a good carpenter knotty or rotten or warped wood, he will have ahard time building our bookcase. If you give me the tools and good wood, I will have a hard time as I am not a carpenter. So a good PD with good research is the proper combination... the ability to make every hour flow, not just take the songs as scheduled. The ability to know what songs may require dayparting or which, even if they test, don't belong on the station. And the ability to put the talent and other elements into the mix. But if you tell a PD that they must do this, but play (as suggested in another post) 1600 songs, it will fail. Nearly all of us have had one learning experience where we thought "variety" means "many" rather than "good" and we don't do that again!

The classic rocker was Emmis' Mega 98.3 in Buenos Aires, Argentina, the second largest city in the Hemisphere. The market, at any one time, has about 100 radio stations, including full ocverage (Mega was 200,000 watts) and neighborhood stations and is among the most competitive markets in the world. And not only was the station classic rock, it only played music by Argentine artists. The full story is here: http://www.davidgleason.com/1999-Mega.htm

 

[The-Major]

Re: Party [Like I Did Back In The Day]

This is what i'm talking about. You can have the biggest playlist in the world, but it's the execution that makes it work. I'm sure while you heard it for the first time in forever, you wouldn't want to hear it every day...or 3 days. I think you'd tire of it fast. I don't even like hearing my favorite songs ALL THE TIME. It's not how much or how little you have, it's what you do with it that makes the difference.

You're right. I may have been mesmerized - perhaps even hypnotized - during the four or so minutes that Dr. Hook's "When You're In Love With A Beautiful Woman" was on yesterday, but I think that if I heard it again anytime soon it would ruin that magical time when I heard for the first time in forever. That was a special feeling. It's a feeling that can't be duplicated (unless of course I hear another such song that I haven't heard in forever). It's about 30+ hours after I heard that song, and it's still on my mind and I'm still singing the words and humming the melody of it. An entire day's worth of Y-100 programming was not able to take that away from me. I think it reinforces the point that I've been making over and over again in here. 27 years from now I seriously doubt that I'll be singing and humming "Snap Yo Fingers" by Lil Jon. On the other hand maybe I will be singing and humming "Bad Day" from Daniel Powter when I'm 66. Good music is still being made today, but it just seems so rare nowadays.

THE MAJOR