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PBS TO LOSE KCET AFFILIATE?

Mark said:
Actually the Kankakee allocation made sense at the time. The south suburbs of Chicago was where all the growth was predicted. Park Forest South, now University Park was planned for 150,000 people, a four year college and two hospitals.

Today it has only around 6,600 people.

But the south suburbs tanked. And these allocations should've been adjusted.

WTTW and WYCC had excellent reasons to keep WYIN off of Sears. WYIN would've paid far less for shows than either station but have gotten similar coverage. It was a matter of being fair.

I think WYIN provides a local slant to TV that is sorely missing. I would hate to see it go, but the population it serves, just isn't affluent enough to make it bigger. I wish other stations would put on at least some genuine local contact to their cities of license. Aurora, Gary, Joliet are big enough cities to warrent some sort of, at least, weekly local program.

I would hate to think PBS stations will just turn into one big rely "network" of programs operated at a switch in NYC or some other big city.
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When the allocations were setup, maybe that was the predicted areas to serve. With the exception of the old WCAE 50 (original non-commercial channel) & the current WYIN 56/DT-17 (originally alocated as commercial, but 50 & 56 were swapped in 1985, making 50 commercial & 56 non-commercial), the 2 commercial allocations for NW Indiana never served NW Indiana, despite the stations being licensed to Gary & Hammond WPWR-TV 50 being licensed to Gary & WJYS 62 being licensed to Hammond).

WTTW & WYCC did not have a valid enough reson to keep WYIN off the Sears Tower. The only way WYIN could have been denied the right to put their transmitter in Chicago is if the station interfered with either of their stations. WYIN already pays less for their PBS programming because of their COL being Gary Indiana. Moving to the Sears Tower wouldn't have changed that, except for having similar coverage. If that happened, I don't believe they would have marketed as much to Chicago as they would have continued to serve NW Indiana. Their reason for wanting to transmit from the Sears Tower was to improve coverage over NW Indiana, as most people in my area only have 1 antenna, and have it pointed at Chicago, & not Cedar Lake. WYIN shows most of the same programming as WTTW, but usually shows it after WTTW already showed it (usually a week, but maybe 2 weeks if WYCC also hold rights to the same show as well). If WYIN were a real threat, they would have been a threat to WTTW more than WYCC as WYCC is more of a college educational channel during the day with some general PBS shows during the evening & overnight hours, while WTTW & WYIN are general PBS stations. WYIN would have had to come up with better programming than what they have in order to really be a threat to WTTW & WYCC. WTTW & WYCC air all their local shows in HD, while WYIN still show their local programming in SD, but any PBS shows that are in HD are aired in HD (WTTW & WYCC are 1080i & WYIN is 720p). As it stands, WYIN is no threat to WTTW & WYCC, whether they transmit from their current site in Cedar Lake, or if they would have been on the Sears Tower. Money was the reason WYIN withdrew their request, and for now continue to have their transmitter in Cedar Lake. For now, WTTW & WYCC can breathe a sigh of relief that WYIN isn't transmitting from Chicago. Otherwise, the FCC would have let WYIN move their transmitter to Chicago, just because their channel allocation (DT-17) is spaced enough to allow it to locate in Chicago. WYIN's old analog allocation, 56 initially couldn't locate in Chicago because of channel 60 was already in Chicago, but also because a year after 56 signed on for the first time (1987), channel 55 from Kenosha signed on for the first time from a tower in Pleasant Prairie Wisconsin in 1988 (tower still there, but now used for WWDV 96.9 Zion, IL). When channel 55 Kenosha moved their transmitter to Franksville WI, and the FCC worked out short-spacing of TV channels, 56 was eventually allowed to locate to Chicago. That never happened either because of cost, which was the same reason their digital channel didn't locate there. The digital CP was withdrawn, while WYIN let the analog CP expire.

Bisides, how many people from Chicagoland would actually donate to a NW Indiana station? Except for cable, they might not be as well known in most of Chicagoland outside of the messageboards. For those that do know of the station might not see a reason to watch the station. Overall, it's not much different from WTTW as the PBS programming overall overlaps. WYIN shows Lawrence Welk & Hee-Haw from time to time on Saturday nights, which WTTW & WYCC don't show at all, along with NW Indiana high school sports & some college sports that CBS, ABC, NBC, & Fox show (mainly college sports within the state of Indiana).
 
Dave said:
Bisides, how many people from Chicagoland would actually donate to a NW Indiana station? Except for cable, they might not be as well known in most of Chicagoland outside of the messageboards. For those that do know of the station might not see a reason to watch the station. Overall, it's not much different from WTTW as the PBS programming overall overlaps. WYIN shows Lawrence Welk & Hee-Haw from time to time on Saturday nights, which WTTW & WYCC don't show at all, along with NW Indiana high school sports & some college sports that CBS, ABC, NBC, & Fox show (mainly college sports within the state of Indiana).[/color]
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Well you know a lot about TV, much more than most people do. Most people wouldn't know the difference between WTTW and WYIN. They'd just donate to the station that had the phone number. Most people think PBS is PBS, they're all the same. People think NBC actually owns all the stations that show its programs. We know better as we view message boards like this but most people don't know.

The bottom line was if WYIN had moved to Sears they would've been a Chicago station paying less money for PBS shows than WTTW or WYIN. That wouldn't be fair. If WYIN did move then they should have had their fees increased. Or at very minimum had a very directional antenna to the Southeast.

I think it brings up a good quesiton, is there really a need for so many PBS stations in a market if they show duplicate shows? I can easily see WTTW and WYIN since they don't duplicate much.

I see KCET as using the threat as a way to get their PBS fees lowered. Now maybe PBS charges too much, I don't know. I don't know how well the other PBS stations carry through the LA DMA either.
 
Mark said:
Dave said:
Bisides, how many people from Chicagoland would actually donate to a NW Indiana station? Except for cable, they might not be as well known in most of Chicagoland outside of the messageboards. For those that do know of the station might not see a reason to watch the station. Overall, it's not much different from WTTW as the PBS programming overall overlaps. WYIN shows Lawrence Welk & Hee-Haw from time to time on Saturday nights, which WTTW & WYCC don't show at all, along with NW Indiana high school sports & some college sports that CBS, ABC, NBC, & Fox show (mainly college sports within the state of Indiana).[/color]
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Well you know a lot about TV, much more than most people do. Most people wouldn't know the difference between WTTW and WYIN. They'd just donate to the station that had the phone number. Most people think PBS is PBS, they're all the same. People think NBC actually owns all the stations that show its programs. We know better as we view message boards like this but most people don't know.

The bottom line was if WYIN had moved to Sears they would've been a Chicago station paying less money for PBS shows than WTTW or WYIN. That wouldn't be fair. If WYIN did move then they should have had their fees increased. Or at very minimum had a very directional antenna to the Southeast.

I think it brings up a good quesiton, is there really a need for so many PBS stations in a market if they show duplicate shows? I can easily see WTTW and WYIN since they don't duplicate much.

I see KCET as using the threat as a way to get their PBS fees lowered. Now maybe PBS charges too much, I don't know. I don't know how well the other PBS stations carry through the LA DMA either.
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If WYIN had moved their signal into Chicago, then WTTW & WYCC would have needed to bring up the programming cost to PBS & not the FCC. I forgot to mention that in my original reply. Yes, coverage would have been similar, but WYIN's signal would have only gone as far north as Kenosha, due to the analog signal having to protect WPXE Kenosha (transmitting out of Franksville at the time) & the digital signal had to protect WVTV Milwaukee (WYIN's signal would still have to protect WVTV, due to WVTV having to return to 18 for digital). So WYIN would have had most of their signal aimed at NW Indiana for both analog & digital. The only reason WYIN's original analog signal was non-directional was because it wasn't 5000kw (it was 1350kw). On the Sears Tower, WYIN was supposed to be 5000kw directional to the SE. The current digital signal has nulls that were meant to protect analog signals WNDU South Bend & WLFI Lafayette (both stations stayed on their pre-transitional channels), and aims the signal toward Chicago. I don't remember what the wattage was supposed to be for digital had it gone on the Sears Tower, but I only remember a sharp null toward Milwaukee that would have remained for post-transition digital.


As for KCET trying to get their fees lowered; it wouldn't surprise me. PBS setup the fees for each major city back in 1970 (when PBS was formed), and increased those fees overtime. PBS never took into account of other non-commercial allocations within specific markets, if that station would have a signal covering the entire market or not. Any of those stations with similar coverage, but licensed to a suburb of a major city getting discounts on programming, put the main & secondary PBS stations at a disadvantage. That was what WTTW & WYCC faced back in 2002 when WYIN's digital allocation became eligible for placement in the city of Chicago (the old analog allocation eventually became eligible as well, but only after WPXE Kenosha located their signal to Franksville, WI). WYIN already gets a discount on their programming since their city of license is Gary Indiana, but part of the Chicago market.

I only wish that when the government hadn't forced NET to merge with WNDT Newark, NJ (now WNET), a suburb of New York City. NET from what I read about them that they were way too liberal with their programming, that the government wanted their programming toned down. Had NET had enough allies, maybe we would have been 2 non-commercial networks today instead of NET being forced to shutdown in 1970. Now this brings up a good point; does WNET Newark, NJ get a discount on the PBS programming they don't produce, because they're licensed to a suburb of New York City? It makes me wonder. I don't believe any PBS station in the New York market is actually licensed to New York City. So other than being a non-commercial independent, I don't believe there's any other network available for non-commercial use other than PBS.
 
Well good for PBS not to give in, or make an exception for this station. Because if they did, a lot of other PBS stations would threaten to quit.

This is really a KCET issue, not a PBS issue. You should be able to run a public TV station for $36 million. But they haven't controlled their costs, and they haven't developed new programming. So they'll save $7 million in PBS dues. Wonder if they'll spend any of that money on local origination. I doubt they'll raise as much money with non-PBS programming, but this will be an interesting experiment...one that a lot of other stations will watch carefully.
 
Who will take over PBS for the Los Angeles Market?

KVCR 24?
KOCE 50?
KLCS 58?

Also what about San Luis Obispo-Santa Barbara, Bakersfield, and Palm Springs TV market? Who will cover them?
 
I'm assuming KCET is licensed for eductional TV only right? They couldn't turn it into infomercial central could they? A religious broadcaster? Would they qualify as educational?
 
e-dawg said:
Who will take over PBS for the Los Angeles Market?

KVCR 24?
KOCE 50?
KLCS 58?

Also what about San Luis Obispo-Santa Barbara, Bakersfield, and Palm Springs TV market? Who will cover them?
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Good question, as far as who will be the PBS primary in Los Angeles. KOCE and KLCS cover a good chunk of the market on OTA, cable, and satellite, while KVCR doesn't have quite the same coverage. Viewers who get KVCR in the Riverside-San Bernardino region already get a sizable amount PBS programming, nearly equivalent to KCET.

Bakersfield gets their PBS programming, in addition to KCET, from a low-powered repeater via KVPT in Fresno (also available on cable). Palm Springs also get theirs from KVCR.
 
This will be a test for both sides. PBS will have to see if they can get another affiliate in the market to give them something close to the 7 mill that KCET gave them. KCET will have to see if they can maintain the revenue they currently have with programming that most of their viewers are not familiar with. My gut tells me that KCET will regret this. How you can have 37 million in revenue and not figure out a way to make that work is beyond me.
 
This will come back to bite them; the only real independent public TV stations in the nation are the Mhz Networks based in DC, which is pretty much a passthrough for international broadcasters, and WYBE in Philadelphia. Judging from their schedule they also get by on international newscasts and Democracy Now! near primetime, which is usually a staple of public access off-hours and the channels in Dish's 9400 'we air it because we have to' tier. You put that in primetime in LA you're only going to get a select few viewers and I'm sure that Pacifica certainly wouldn't give them that show for free at all like they usually do.

If this happens it's definitely an amazing comeback story by KOCE, which seven years ago was fighting off Daystar wanting to buy them to compete with the powerful flagship of TBN, KTBN. Daystar eventually sued their way onto KOCE-DT3 which put them in LA but at a much reduced presence than they expected.

If I'm KOCE I am definitely ramping up the appeals to be LA's PBS station. But with NBC also putting KWHY up for sale to satisfy the government in the Comcast deal there's the possibility that it could be bought by a group unhappy with KCET and wanting to keep PBS on an LA-licensed station, even if they have to kill a commercial license to do so.
 
So KCET will be like KCSM and KMTP in San Francisco, WYBE in Philadelphia, WNYE in New York City, WNVZ and WNVT in Washington, KULC in Salt Lake City, and WBEC Miami. All of them were part of PBS in the past.
 
WYBE was never aligned with PBS. WHYY (PBS) used to be on Ch.35 in the 1970s; when WYBE was a new station in the early 90's, the Philadelphia Inquirer incorrectly listed it as PBS for a couple of years.

The Inquirer did block it with Channel 12 and other PBS stations, so the block in the TV grid would be
3
6
10
12
23/52
35
39
17
29
48
57

rather than12 17 23 29 35

WYBE aired some programs that NJN would pick up at the time like Wai Lana Yoga and BBC News, but WYBE was independent - not to be confused with NJN which had some similar programming, and Ch.39 (PBS) from Bethlehem-Allentown, both also in the alternate to WHYY category.
 
Sad to see KCET in such dire straits but they really have only themselves to blame. They haven't produced any content for PBS since Carl Sagan's Cosmos in 1980. Huell Howser is a freelancer that KCET adopted but Huell ultimately owns all of his shows that they air. KCET's studios are basically rented to Game Show Network for most of their original game show programming. Above all of that, KCET pays multiple $200K+ salaries to executives and a VP whose only duty seems to be putting the station in perpetual beg mode for 10 out of the 12 months (I think I've seen Victor Borge and Suze Orman about 25 times this year all ready).

KCET has zero initiative to do anything which is why it is failing. I doubt it'll do much better if they break off from PBS because that is really their only draw to begin with. LA all ready has a massive glut of foreign language and English independents and adding one more in KCET only dilutes what little left there is to put on the air.
 
e-dawg said:
So KCET will be like... KULC in Salt Lake City, and WBEC Miami. All of them were part of PBS in the past.
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KULC (now KUEN) and WBEC were never part of PBS -- they both broadcast educational programming and documentaries.
 
Who had produced content from KCET 28 in the past? Hard to go see a public television station in the second largest market biten in the dust. SAVE KCET FOREVER!
 
Robnoxious said:
Sad to see KCET in such dire straits but they really have only themselves to blame. They haven't produced any content for PBS since Carl Sagan's Cosmos in 1980........
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Not true, they produce a children's series, Sid the Science Kid.
 
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