PLEASE POST RECORDINGS OF HD, particularly AM

[eGillCVI]

I have heard AM in HD and it does indeed sound tinny. I believe the term they're using to describe AM in HD is "approaching FM quality." It's definitely not FM quality but it is certainly better than the analog. No crackles during lightning strikes, no total loss while driving under an overpass, and just generally a lot easier to listen to. The point is to make it easier on the ears. Let's face it: People switch away from AM because it's hard to sit through.

As for the interference, I believe that argument is just a crutch being used by those who have a distaste for HD radio. No regular listener is going to care about or even notice it. Except to radio geeks (about whom the industry [EDIT]"IBOC hash" is a non-issue.
[EDIT-profanity]

I have similar observations. I've never heard "hash" or "hissing" or any other interference on the analog audio of a station running IBOC.

What kind of radios are you guys using that you can't hear the hissing?
Must be PLL step-tuned at 10 khz steps only, because every normal analog radio is so touchy that it's darn near impossible
to center-tune to minimize the hiss.
And then it's only minimized, not GONE, and the remaining audio has no upper register.
And then if it's a car radio, any driving causes tuning shifts, bringing back the hiss..

If you can't hear the IBOC hissing on AM, your ears, radio, or truthfulness are sadly lacking.

Thanks Tom.
It's is nice to hear the truth for a change, instead of a pack of HD hucksters peddling HD promotional hype.
On FM, digital hiss on adjacent channels is also plainly heard, except it is often mistaken for interstation noise (which has a different frequency distribution). With all the self proclaimed HD "golden ears" we have on this board, you would think anyone who could not hear the loud digital adjacent channel noise should be immediately expelled from the "golden ears" category, and their credibility immediately suspect.

Ha ha. You people never cease to amaze me. HD hucksters? Where? I see people discussing HD radio and I see people arguing pointlessly about how horrible HD radio is. I don't see anyone on here trying to sell the thing. And if it's my credibility your questioning: Well, I don't even know who you are. Why on earth would anyone care?

 

[DarkStarPDX]

Thanks Tom.
It's is nice to hear the truth for a change, instead of a pack of HD hucksters peddling HD promotional hype.
On FM, digital hiss on adjacent channels is also plainly heard, except it is often mistaken for interstation noise (which has a different frequency distribution). With all the self proclaimed HD "golden ears" we have on this board, you would think anyone who could not hear the loud digital adjacent channel noise should be immediately expelled from the "golden ears" category, and their credibility immediately suspect.

Actually, if you hear the hash on the AM or FM side, that just means your radio isn't tuned properly for some reason. On FM radios, your radio isn't properly extracting the L+R and L-R signals, on AM it means your bandwidth filter is too wide (most AM HD stations run between 3.5 khz and 5 khz wide).

Regardless of what anyone says, there is an AM bandwidth mask that all radio stations are required to follow (same for HD and analog) and as long as their emissions fall within those requirements set by the FCC there isn't an issue (just look at AM stereo operations)...

 

[SUPERCASTER]

I have heard AM in HD and it does indeed sound tinny. I believe the term they're using to describe AM in HD is "approaching FM quality." It's definitely not FM quality but it is certainly better than the analog. No crackles during lightning strikes, no total loss while driving under an overpass, and just generally a lot easier to listen to. The point is to make it easier on the ears. Let's face it: People switch away from AM because it's hard to sit through.

As for the interference, I believe that argument is just a crutch being used by those who have a distaste for HD radio. No regular listener is going to care about or even notice it. Except to radio geeks (about whom the industry [EDIT]"IBOC hash" is a non-issue.
[EDIT-profanity]

I have similar observations. I've never heard "hash" or "hissing" or any other interference on the analog audio of a station running IBOC.

What kind of radios are you guys using that you can't hear the hissing?
Must be PLL step-tuned at 10 khz steps only, because every normal analog radio is so touchy that it's darn near impossible
to center-tune to minimize the hiss.
And then it's only minimized, not GONE, and the remaining audio has no upper register.
And then if it's a car radio, any driving causes tuning shifts, bringing back the hiss..

If you can't hear the IBOC hissing on AM, your ears, radio, or truthfulness are sadly lacking.

Thanks Tom.
It's is nice to hear the truth for a change, instead of a pack of HD hucksters peddling HD promotional hype.
On FM, digital hiss on adjacent channels is also plainly heard, except it is often mistaken for interstation noise (which has a different frequency distribution). With all the self proclaimed HD "golden ears" we have on this board, you would think anyone who could not hear the loud digital adjacent channel noise should be immediately expelled from the "golden ears" category, and their credibility immediately suspect.

Ha ha. You people never cease to amaze me. HD hucksters? Where? I see people discussing HD radio and I see people arguing pointlessly about how horrible HD radio is. I don't see anyone on here trying to sell the thing. And if it's my credibility your questioning: Well, I don't even know who you are. Why on earth would anyone care?

I see HD promoters come here to plug and peddle their defective HD technology anyway they can, while honest others poke holes in their over inflated or false, self serving claims.
HD supporters are here promoting HD technology, opponents are just giving justified criticism, and have nothing to sell.

 

[eGillCVI]

I can not for the life of me understand how you can honestly believe what you've just said. No one here has anything to gain from "selling" HD radio. Who among us has some sort of stake in it? Let's not insult each others' intelligence. I honestly believe you're smarter than this. Let's really think this thing out: There is no reason for anyone to be promoting the technology on here. Let's all just calm down and act rationally. Can we do that?

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Here's a link directly to the audio if you want to download it http://www.theproductionroom.net/wksk.wma

I just downloaded this file... and it's all hiss, if this is AM IBOC... or anything similar... forget it'!

Part 15 AM transmitters sound better that that... although they have less wattage....

The voice track sounds ok, but the music really sucks no high end, and it's tinny....

Just my take on it... of course perhaps on a $300.00 table top HD radio it may sound better... but 97% of radios out there are not HD.

Yes, very raspy, tinney, and hissy. Imagine how much worse they will sound when they go HD and cut their fidelity in half and add more hiss.
Here is a list of AM stations licensed by the FCC to transmit HD:
http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/sta_list.pl
Is Mike claiming WKSK is illegally transmitting in HD?
Should WKSK be reported to the FCC for illegal HD operation?

 

[SUPERCASTER]

I can not for the life of me understand how you can honestly believe what you've just said. No one here has anything to gain from "selling" HD radio. Who among us has some sort of stake in it? Let's not insult each others' intelligence. I honestly believe you're smarter than this. Let's really think this thing out: There is no reason for anyone to be promoting the technology on here. Let's all just calm down and act rationally. Can we do that?

Your statement is false.
Many HD supporters who post here have direct or indirect interests in promoting HD Radio, and have said so.
HD supporters clearly have an interest in promoting HD Radio, even if they have spent a few hundred dollars buying the radio, and want to see HD signals continue to be transmitted.
HD opponents have nothing to sell, nothing invested, and just see the faulty logic of digital HD radio which reduces fidelity and creates interference, while claiming HD is somehow a magical improvement.
Fortunately, the public couldn't care less about HD radio.

 

[stevenNOLA]

Here's a link directly to the audio if you want to download it http://www.theproductionroom.net/wksk.wma

I just downloaded this file... and it's all hiss, if this is AM IBOC... or anything similar... forget it'!

Part 15 AM transmitters sound better that that... although they have less wattage....

The voice track sounds ok, but the music really sucks no high end, and it's tinny....

Just my take on it... of course perhaps on a $300.00 table top HD radio it may sound better... but 97% of radios out there are not HD.

Yes, very raspy, tinney, and hissy. Imagine how much worse they will sound when they go HD and cut their fidelity in half and add more hiss.
Here is a list of AM stations licensed by the FCC to transmit HD:
http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/sta_list.pl
Is Mike claiming WKSK is illegally transmitting in HD?
Should WKSK be reported to the FCC for illegal HD operation?

Actually, he was suggesting how well analog AM can sound. This is a recording of an analog broadcast. You would notice this if you read the first post correctly. The poster has never heard AM on HD. Thanks for pointing out that you will seize the opportunity slam anything HD related, no matter what it is... Too bad this is a recording of your beloved analog AM.

 

[Mike Walker]

Did any of you actually read what I said about the WKSK file? They are ANALOG AM, with VERY high quality. That file was made from more than 30 air miles from their tower (they're 5kw on 580khz), with wide bandwidth on an AM radio that actually has highs (the Grundig S350). I posted it in response to the person who said that AM analog naturally "sounded bad". What you're calling "hissy", "tinny", or whatever is simply the 75us pre-emphasis curve WKSK (and all other AM stations) use...boosting highs during transmission to make up for the cut in radios. When you play it through a radio that allows highs to go through (with an 8-10khz audio passband, rather than the 3-5khz on most AM radios), it will sound pretty bright. That's why God invented treble controls! The point is, AM (when properly engineered) isn't "muffled" and narrowband as most people seem to think.

Geez, you people! Nobody even noticed that this 5kw station at more than 30 miles is almost completely noise-free on a 100 dollar radio, and that the highs are...well THERE! And you think you're qualified LISTENERS? I'm sure the guys here who are actually in radio recognized good, WIDEBAND AM RECEPTION! The rest of you, frankly, don't know what you're talking about! The "hiss" is from the ORIGINAL MASTER TAPE (on the commercial). How many of you (who aren't in radio, exposed to proper on-air monitoring) have EVER heard AM so transparent that you could hear tape hiss from the master tape??? GEEZ, before commenting on audio quality, GET A CLUE!

 

[R.F. Burns]

Mike, I remember hearing wide band AM from both a crystal radio (with line output connections to listen through a Fisher amp and Pre amp and a pair of KLH6's. I've also heard air monitors take from sampling loops on AM towers and it sure can sound great, in mono. However, look out for summer weather conditions when the low bands are filled with the sound of static and also watch out for crowded spectrum, such as we have in the northeast and west coast (where the vast majority of the population resides). Try wide band on a 1 K directional on a regional frequency. Why in my area 1 K at 1460 Khz doesn't get you 15 miles with a listenable signal, or even on a lower frequency where groundwave coverage should be better, by the time you are over 20 miles from the station the signal is weak and really not listenable for most people. In wideband mode the signal would be unlistenable. I know that NY and the northeast isn't everything in this country, but when you are talking about 10 or 15 million people, that says alot.

 

[Mike Walker]

Yeah RF, but HD would be unlistenable at those distances, in those conditions as well. It would simply switch back to noisy, analog AM. HD doesn't solve any of the problems you speak of! In close, where HD works, so does wideband analog AM. At a distance, the bandwidth on analog AM can be reduced still yielding a listenable signal (with lower fidelity), but HD just goes away!

 

[R.F. Burns]

Yeah RF, but HD would be unlistenable at those distances, in those conditions as well. It would simply switch back to noisy, analog AM. HD doesn't solve any of the problems you speak of! In close, where HD works, so does wideband analog AM. At a distance, the bandwidth on analog AM can be reduced still yielding a listenable signal (with lower fidelity), but HD just goes away!

All I can say from last years experience with the B.A. is that while I was hearing atmosperic crashes on analog AM, my HD signals were steady and noise free and this was from a distance of about 25 miles. I'll grant you that this was while listening to a 50 KW station.

 

[Mike Walker]

Ok RF, imagine the year was 1987, rather than 2007. How impressed would either of us be by noise-free reception of a 50kw station at 25 miles? I know...lightning crashes. Let's change EVERYTHING, and degrade EVERYTHING for the .0000002 percent of the time when we have thunderstorms!

 

[Tom Wells]

I am moving toward the ability to record and post a file of AM audio.

I will be recording to audio CD first, so I will be upper end limited at 22,050 hz, and using the highest encoding rate I can.
I hope someone can suggest a file-posting host.


The Grundig S350 sounds exactly like my Sangean ATS 803.
If I listen to an AM on it for more than 10 seconds, I tune + or - 3 khz to pick up some high end, as the even the wide setting is
still pretty narrow. And even then, the ceramic or xtal filter lops off the truly crisp high end.
I bet there's even more high end in WKSK than we hear through the Grundig.
Was it center-tuned or offset when this recording was made, and what is the wide IF setting on the Grundig 350?

 

[Chuck]

I don't have an easy way to record this, so you’ll have to take my word for it. I live about 140 miles from Dallas. My 2007 Chevy Tahoe has a Bose factory stereo with XM, CD player and a cell phone integrated into it. It is a very good sounding radio.

During the daytime, I can receive both KAAM 770 and KRLD 1080 with good reliability. Both are using HD transmission methods. As I tune to the side bands of each station, 760, 780, 1070 and 1090, I can very clearly hear the digital hiss of the IBOC sidebands. In fact, at this distance, the sidebands appear to be much louder than the main analog signal. Because it sounds like white noise, that may be perceived loudness, not actual loudness, but I have no easy way to measure that. None the less, they are definitely there. It's a good thing that there is nothing I really want to listen to on those adjacent frequencies.

KAAM's analog signal has noticeably degraded at this distance on my car radio. It has a decided hiss to it that I've never heard before. When I first noticed the noise, I called the station to see what had happened. They told me that they had just switched to HD. That may be great in Dallas, but it has done nothing for me, other than make me take them off my car radio pre-sets. Now when I drive to Dallas, which is several times a month, I just listen to XM. As for my old AM habits, well, out of sight, out of mind...

Did anyone win in that “improvement?”

 

[Mike Walker]

Tom, my Grundig was in the wide setting, and it was dead-center tuned. "Wide" is quite wide. Using the spectral analysis in Adobe Audition, I see plenty of content to about 8khz. Strangely, there's stuff from 8khz to almost 20khz at a lower level. Must be some kind of noise-shaping from the Windows Media codec (I never did spectral analysis on the original .wav file, which I deleted for space saving. If I'd seen this content above 10khz, I would have checked the uncompressed file too, because I'm pretty darn sure the radio isn't good much past 8khz or so (which is darn good for an AM radio!), and of course 'KSK shouldn't have much of anything above 9khz anyway because of the RF mask.

If you have spectral analysis, maybe you can speculate on what exactly is going on above 8khz? The pause between the liner and song is brief, but interestingly the 'wiggle' at the upper frequencies seems to continue during that instant when there's no audio. Anyhow, dead-center tuned, in wide bandwidth, through the line output. Mine is NOT a 350DL, but IS one of the later 350s with virtually zero drift on AM once it's warmed for a few minutes. Hope that helps.

 

[hitNrun]

They told me that they had just switched to HD. That may be great in Dallas, but it has done nothing for me, other than make me take them off my car radio pre-sets. Now when I drive to Dallas, which is several times a month, I just listen to XM. As for my old AM habits, well, out of sight, out of mind...

Did anyone win in that “improvement?”

This is exactly, what will generally happen, with HD-AM - with all the hissing, this will drive listeners to XM, Sirius, or turn their backs completely on AM. I can't wait, until the FCC authorizes nighttime HD-AM. Nothing like, shooting-yourself-in-the-foot !

 

[DoogieDown1]

KAAM's analog signal has noticeably degraded at this distance on my car radio. It has a decided hiss to it that I've never heard before. When I first noticed the noise, I called the station to see what had happened. They told me that they had just switched to HD.

I live in Dallas (specifically, Garland)... in the very bulls eye of KAAM's coverage, and there is definitely hiss in KAAM's analog signal locally. It's like listening to the analog down a "hiss tunnel" (just like Capitol Records' old fake stereo was like listening to the music down a sewer tunnel).

Maybe I'll have time to record it this weekend and then post it.

Actually, I used to listen to KAAM quite a bit, but I've quit because of the hiss. I'm 35-years-old, so they won't miss me. Not the target demo. 1570 KPYK has become my station of choice for Adult Standards in East Dallas County.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm an AM Stereo fan. I was pretty miffed when KAAM turned off its C-Quam. But today I'm over it, and I really would settle for a quality mono analog signal out of KAAM.

 

[R.F. Burns]

KAAM's analog signal has noticeably degraded at this distance on my car radio. It has a decided hiss to it that I've never heard before. When I first noticed the noise, I called the station to see what had happened. They told me that they had just switched to HD.

I live in Dallas (specifically, Garland)... in the very bulls eye of KAAM's coverage, and there is definitely hiss in KAAM's analog signal locally. It's like listening to the analog down a "hiss tunnel" (just like Capitol Records' old fake stereo was like listening to the music down a sewer tunnel).

Maybe I'll have time to record it this weekend and then post it.

Actually, I used to listen to KAAM quite a bit, but I've quit because of the hiss. I'm 35-years-old, so they won't miss me. Not the target demo. 1570 KPYK has become my station of choice for Adult Standards in East Dallas County.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm an AM Stereo fan. I was pretty miffed when KAAM turned off its C-Quam. But today I'm over it, and I really would settle for a quality mono analog signal out of KAAM.

What kind of radio are you using to receive this station? I'll make a recording using a GE super radio which has manual tuning to our HD stations and see what kind of IBOC interference I'm faced with. I know in my car (and we have 4, 50 KW HD AM stations) I have no IBOC interference problems, but my car radio, like most current radios tunes in 10 Khz steps, just like my walkman does. My walkman will also do 9khz steps but it makes no sense to tune 9 Khz in North America, does it?

 

[DoogieDown1]

<< What kind of radio are you using to receive this station? >>

I listen on several radios. At home I listen on a Grundig Yacht Boy and a Sony SRF-A200 (Austrailian version of the SRF-A100) depending on whether I'm upstairs or downstairs. In the car, it's a base level Chrysler factory radio with cassette (from the late 90's)... no C-Quam. At work I use an old Uniden CR-2021.

 

[Chuck]

1570 KPYK has become my station of choice for Adult Standards in East Dallas County.

I sometimes tune into KPYK when I'm driving to Dallas. They still sound pretty good on my GM-Bose car radio. KAAM sounds a lot worse, although it has a much stronger signal. Still, I find that it is easier to just tune in XM.