possible cbs-fm flip

[OldiesCat]

By saying "Do op" crap you are putting your personal "spin" on the kind of oldies that will play at CBS FM. You are doing what has killed radio - cut the piece of the pie so small that there is no variety or diversity in the music. With that being said, I think CBS should play all sixties, seventies and eighties. They should bring back the "Do-op" shop on a weekend feature for those who like that stuff. The sixties was a great, diverse decade for music, why "chop it up?"

Either play oldies or don't.

Either choose to have a 60+ audience or don't. If you want the return of CBS-FM to be short lived, fine- play doo-wop.
Your listeners will be too old, advertisers will hate it and you'll be the next CBS flavour-of-the-day in a year or two.

Hanging on to pre-Beatles music for too long is what's been killing Oldies. Wake up!

 

[OldiesCat]

I've participated in "music research testing" as done by radio stations in my local market (#'s 1 & 18, respectively). And when you come right down to it, that's exactly what it is because the diagnostics indicate if song A "tested" better than song B, then song B should not be played.

You're either fabricating attending a music test or the one you say you went to was garbage. Proper music tests don't pit song "A" against song "B" with the winner making the cut and the loser not being played.

Sheesh.

 

[OldiesCat]

But if that's the case, then the oldies are o-v-e-r as well--and blame technological and cultural change for that, the kind that doesn't work on the medium's behalf.

Oldies is struggling because the audience is aging out of desired 25-54 demo cells. It has nothing to do with technology.
Advertisers aren't using radio to target 55+ consumers- THAT is the problem.

And, if the music mix isn't right to give them solid 25-54 performance, meaning doing really well from 40 to early 50 yr olds,
having Harry Harrison, Howard Stern or God himself won't help.

 

[Mike Sheridan]

But if that's the case, then the oldies are o-v-e-r as well--and blame technological and cultural change for that, the kind that doesn't work on the medium's behalf.

Oldies is struggling because the audience is aging out of desired 25-54 demo cells. It has nothing to do with technology.
Advertisers aren't using radio to target 55+ consumers- THAT is the problem.

And, if the music mix isn't right to give them solid 25-54 performance, meaning doing really well from 40 to early 50 yr olds,
having Harry Harrison, Howard Stern or God himself won't help.

So you assume that anyone under 60 doesn't like do wap just because you don't? I know kids who are sick of the 70's oldies the A/C stations have been burned badly. To them Lesley Gore, Gene Pitney, Brenda Lee and Bobby Vee are new. They seem to enjoy discovering them.

Let WCBS-FM play the oldies New York invented. The music that came out of the Brill Building still has wide appeal.

Here's a thought adult stations often turn into voice tracked music boxes after 7pm for the simple reason adults go home and watch the idiot box. WCBS-FM should do a request show and get a real feeling of what people want to hear. If done right it can be fun and a research tool.

 

[OldiesCat]

But if that's the case, then the oldies are o-v-e-r as well--and blame technological and cultural change for that, the kind that doesn't work on the medium's behalf.

Oldies is struggling because the audience is aging out of desired 25-54 demo cells. It has nothing to do with technology.
Advertisers aren't using radio to target 55+ consumers- THAT is the problem.

And, if the music mix isn't right to give them solid 25-54 performance, meaning doing really well from 40 to early 50 yr olds,
having Harry Harrison, Howard Stern or God himself won't help.

So you assume that anyone under 60 doesn't like do ------ just because you don't? I know kids who are sick of the 70's oldies the A/C stations have been burned badly. To them Lesley Gore, Gene Pitney, Brenda Lee and Bobby Vee are new. They seem to enjoy discovering them.

Let WCBS-FM play the oldies New York invented. The music that came out of the Brill Building still has wide appeal.

Here's a thought adult stations often turn into voice tracked music boxes after 7pm for the simple reason adults go home and watch the idiot box. WCBS-FM should do a request show and get a real feeling of what people want to hear. If done right it can be fun and a research tool.

That's not what I was saying. I love Sam Cooke, Everly Brothers, Ricky Nelson and others.

The whole idea of Oldies is the nostalgic kick you get from hearing the songs that were big for you during your teenage years. Most 45-year-olds think Lesley Gore and Gene Pitney sound o-l-d ... to them. You can't MAKE people like Oldies the same way the traditional Oldies partisans do. Younger people are discovering music by younger, more currently relevant artists, not The Four Seasons. Do some under 50s like some of that music? Of course. Can you make a living off them giving you P-1 TSL? Never in a million years.

And, FYI, putting a request show on your Oldies station in the evening will not cause your audience to suddenly stop watching "American Idol", "CSI" and "House". This "if we build it, they WILL come" fantasy is just that and it's just the sort of typical radio arrogance that's cause people to check out satellite, internet and load up their iPods as alternatives to stale, cookie-cutter, self-absorbed contest-laden radio stations who think they can bribe their audience into listening.

Thankfully, those days are over.

 

[davideduardo]

I've participated in "music research testing" as done by radio stations in my local market (#'s 1 & 18, respectively). And when you come right down to it, that's exactly what it is because the diagnostics indicate if song A "tested" better than song B, then song B should not be played. .

That is not how it works. Songs that pass a variety of filters (low burn, high love, full familiarity, balence in the different station cells like younger and older, male and female, ethnic and non-ethnic, etc.) get played, and ones that are broadly negative on various criteria do not.

Song testing is not a horse race. Hundreds of songs can win, and many more can lose. Through that process you determine which songs to play and how often... even when to rest them, etc.

All the "best" songs get played. The stiffs don't-

And I did not even get into cluster and factor analysis.....

Not when they're played over and over until burnt to a crisp. Did we not learn anything from the failed Jammin' format?.

Jammin oldies was set out to be an LA format for assimilated Hispanic females. When the owners tried to broaden it, it meant that they were playing a bunch of secondary songs that created an "oh wow" reaction for about 5 minutes, and then the format died. It died because it was made too white, and it was not researched or designed to be a white format.

Regular testing shows when songs burn. If a song tests without burn, it is not burnt.


[/quote]OH, PUH-LEEESE! When Joe McCoy programmed WCBS-FM to their greatest success in the 1980's, they went with a playlist of 1200 songs. Due to pressure from consultants and the corporate suits, the playlist was trimmed, cut, slashed and chopped to around 400 songs by the time Joe stepped down in 2003..[/quote]

It is really unlikely that 1200 songs from the 50's and 60's tested in 2000. Anyone playing that many was just wrong. And it ain't the 80's today. The oldies format cume base has eroded nationally because many oldies listeners have moved on, discovering other formats once they tired of hearing any of the 60's stuff any more.

Why does it have to be a 500 song playlist? When was there a law passed stating that this is mandatory?

Fact of life, not law. It is hard to find more than 500 60's oldies that test any more. Every year, fewer songs test.

 

[adma]

But if that's the case, then the oldies are o-v-e-r as well--and blame technological and cultural change for that, the kind that doesn't work on the medium's behalf.

Oldies is struggling because the audience is aging out of desired 25-54 demo cells. It has nothing to do with technology.
Advertisers aren't using radio to target 55+ consumers- THAT is the problem.

And, if the music mix isn't right to give them solid 25-54 performance, meaning doing really well from 40 to early 50 yr olds,
having Harry Harrison, Howard Stern or God himself won't help.

When I refer to "technology", I'm referring to something subtler which, indeed, may feed into and reinforce your argument--that is, with the myriad means of obtaining and sharing musical and cultural knowledge these days that would have been but a glimmer on the horizon a generation ago (including the one we're presently using), the traditional, unqualified casual-listener-oriented "oldies approach" now comes across as incredibly feeble, retrogressive, unsophisticated. In an Amazon'n'Starbucks era, it no longer cuts the mustard.

And it's nothing to do with musical date or type--indeed, it might be argued that said ""Do op" crap", musically speaking, is quite compatible with the hip Starbuckian sensibility behind recent/current phenomena like Norah Jones and Amy Winehouse. Viewed in that light, it can, indeed, be valid to the under-50 crowd--and one that's quite sexy to ad buyers.

Unfortunately, that's a sensibility virtually completely lost to the "oldies crowd"; perhaps because, like MTV, it's part of a post-1980 paradigm shift that bamboozles them into Rip Van Winkledom. Maybe that explains the crisis at hand behind oldies *and* "classic hits"...

The whole idea of Oldies is the nostalgic kick you get from hearing the songs that were big for you during your teenage years. Most 45-year-olds think Lesley Gore and Gene Pitney sound o-l-d ... to them. You can't MAKE people like Oldies the same way the traditional Oldies partisans do. Younger people are discovering music by younger, more currently relevant artists, not The Four Seasons. Do some under 50s like some of that music? Of course. Can you make a living off them giving you P-1 TSL? Never in a million years.

Case in point; what you're describing sounds incredibly unsophisticated in addressing the "oldies problem". Maybe the issue at hand is to look beyond this pinheaded notion of "nostalgic kick"? Maybe *that's* what turns the younger demos off oldies radio...

"You can't MAKE people like Oldies the same way the traditional Oldies partisans do."

Let me modify that a little--you can't even make the younger generations like *their* so-called Oldies the same way the traditional Oldies partisans do, especially when its said traditional partisans calling the shots. Because you're playing them as Stepford idiots--it may have come natural to you (and I, full disclosure, not denying), but that's a different generation, different ears, different conditioning...

"Younger people are discovering music by younger, more currently relevant artists, not The Four Seasons."

And you know something, even the 40somethings are still "discovering music" et al, not only by "younger, more currently relevant artists" but even "older, eternally relevant artists" (which may indeed include the Four Seasons--also, in their way, "Amy Winehouse-compatible"). They're not hidebound reactionaries like all too many of their oldies-generation elders.

"Can you make a living off them giving you P-1 TSL? Never in a million years."

Maybe, in a post-oldies, post-masscult era, it's no longer about raw P-1 TSL...

 

[davideduardo]

Case in point; what you're describing sounds incredibly unsophisticated in addressing the "oldies problem". Maybe the issue at hand is to look beyond this pinheaded notion of "nostalgic kick"? Maybe *that's* what turns the younger demos off oldies radio....

Cutting through the psychobabble, the fact is that anyone who has conducted interviews with oldies P1's has instantly discovered that a huge if not total portion of the listener base uses oldies radio as a way to time-travel to the only era in their lives that was truly fun. What we see, using one interview I did as an example, is 50's filing clerk who works in a basement at the DoJ en DC filing papers to support her and her cat; oldies represents her high school years when whe was tninner, younger and had fun and boyfriends. Now that is probably extreme, but most of the listeners I have spoken to in English oldies projects have considered the "oldies years" as the best in their lives.

[/quoteLet me modify that a little--you can't even make the younger generations like *their* so-called Oldies the same way the traditional Oldies partisans do, especially when its said traditional partisans calling the shots..[/quote]

If you talk to hip hop P1s, you also find extreme partisanship for old school hip hop. There is perhaps a greater identification by outsiders of the era of 60's oldies due to the social changes and media changes in that decade. Otherwise, every generation and taste group has its own songs they are passionate about. For example, to me 70's salsa defines music for me... not 60's pop oldies. We run an extreme risk to think that everyone liked those songs when they were hits. Because there was country, r&b, and many other styles of music... just none had the visibility at the time of Top 40.

"Can you make a living off them giving you P-1 TSL? Never in a million years."

Maybe, in a post-oldies, post-masscult era, it's no longer about raw P-1 TSL...

In radio, P1s are what drive radio stations, and that 30% of the cume that is P1 represent about 75% of the AQH share. The people meter does not change the importance of P1's. Your odd neologisms asside ("masscult" means what???? Huh?), radio is actually quite simple... it's the overintellectualizing by folks like you that obfuscates the siimple fact that if you play music a group of people like, don't play too many songs they don't like, and glue it together well, you have a decent radio station.

 

[adma]

Cutting through the psychobabble, the fact is that anyone who has conducted interviews with oldies P1's has instantly discovered that a huge if not total portion of the listener base uses oldies radio as a way to time-travel to the only era in their lives that was truly fun. What we see, using one interview I did as an example, is 50's filing clerk who works in a basement at the DoJ en DC filing papers to support her and her cat; oldies represents her high school years when whe was tninner, younger and had fun and boyfriends. Now that is probably extreme, but most of the listeners I have spoken to in English oldies projects have considered the "oldies years" as the best in their lives.

But, freeze-frame a bit. You're depicting this case example quite sympathetically (if colorlessly); however, it's a cruel world out there, and in such a context, she sounds positively pathetic. Essentially, you're affirming the worst-case-scenario notion of the core oldies demo being "losers" (quotation deliberate). Throwaway marginalia. The pits. Now, I can be sympathetic to her case on a one-on-one basis; but when it comes to the bigger picture re the medium, well, no wonder etc etc. (But at least you're affirming my point about how it's more of a "cultural thing" than an "age thing" per se re radio/ad-buyer target demos, etc. If inadvertently. Or not.)

Your odd neologisms asside ("masscult" means what???? Huh?), radio is actually quite simple... it's the overintellectualizing by folks like you that obfuscates the siimple fact that if you play music a group of people like, don't play too many songs they don't like, and glue it together well, you have a decent radio station.

But maybe if your above example is representative of the "group of people" which concerns you, well...ah, makes you sound like a bottom-feeding media/cultural slumlord getting defensive.

Oh, and if "masscult" (= "mass culture") comes across as an "odd neologism" to you, you're part of radio's post-Y2K encased-in-a-plastic-bubble problem...

 

[davideduardo]

Essentially, you're affirming the worst-case-scenario notion of the core oldies demo being "losers" (quotation deliberate). .

No, I am portraying oldies listeners as consumers who are attracted to the nostalgia value of a format that represents, generally, adolesence and early adulthood and a period that is still looked back upon favorably. The reasons for the nostalga are many, and range from a current state of pathos to a life today that is nice, but far more routine than earlier years.

But maybe if your above example is representative of the "group of people" which concerns you, well...ah, makes you sound like a bottom-feeding media/cultural slumlord getting defensive..

Radio does not prequalify, like a mortgage seeker, its listeners. Radio, in fact, seeks consumers who are of interest to advertisers. Whether they wear their underwear inside out... or any other lifestyle issue you can make up... is irrelevent.

Oh, and if "masscult" (= "mass culture") comes across as an "odd neologism" to you, you're part of radio's post-Y2K encased-in-a-plastic-bubble problem...

It just looks like bad pseudo-English to me, but since English is not my first language, I will have to trust you if you say it is legitimate term. It certainly is neologism, as it does not appear in anything but electronic "word guides" and not printed dictionaries. I would classify it in the same category as "ho" in fact... a transitory term of no deep meaning.

 

[Boss Radio]

Stations make their money M-F between 5am and 7pm. Weekend specialty shows that foster good PR (and might make a little $$) are harmless. God knows a little good PR from CBS could go a long way. Besides, if such programs are tuneouts, where else are they gonna go? The 55+ plus set still WANTS to use radio, but there's nothing there for them (satrad don't count). Regardless of what agencies think, there's untapped ratings and revenue there. Plus, everything I've read about PPM suggests that a return to oldies is a potential cume goldmine. And seriously, who is going to miss Jack? PLJ's P2's?

No, they could be harmful. If you go back to those shows, you cast the station as Grandpa's station. With a two-year hiatus, CBS-FM has a chance to reinvent itself. The last thing they want to do is go back to being the station that was having such profound demo problems. It's important that the content isn't too old. That includes music and personalities, which is why there's no place for the Bill Browns and Don K. Reeds.

 

[adma]

Oh, and if "masscult" (= "mass culture") comes across as an "odd neologism" to you, you're part of radio's post-Y2K encased-in-a-plastic-bubble problem...

It just looks like bad pseudo-English to me, but since English is not my first language, I will have to trust you if you say it is legitimate term. It certainly is neologism, as it does not appear in anything but electronic "word guides" and not printed dictionaries. I would classify it in the same category as "ho" in fact... a transitory term of no deep meaning.

You're constantly pronouncing this language/cultural barrier on your part, but (a) it's not serving you badly as a regular poster on this board, etc, and (b) odd as this may sound, you're no different from the bulk of the Yanqui radio biz braintrust on that account. Except that their barrier is based upon philistinism. When it comes to a modern-day mainstream guided by the likes of Apple and Starbucks, they're like bottom-feeding plaid-jacketed vulgarians on the outside looking in--which may help explain how they cocked up on the oldies *and* classic hits front.

i.e. if, as a non-Yanqui, this is your "chosen Yanqui crowd", you're a truly incompetent judge of Yanqui character and culture...

 

[dinosaur]

Stations make their money M-F between 5am and 7pm. Weekend specialty shows that foster good PR (and might make a little $$) are harmless. God knows a little good PR from CBS could go a long way. Besides, if such programs are tuneouts, where else are they gonna go? The 55+ plus set still WANTS to use radio, but there's nothing there for them (satrad don't count). Regardless of what agencies think, there's untapped ratings and revenue there. Plus, everything I've read about PPM suggests that a return to oldies is a potential cume goldmine. And seriously, who is going to miss Jack? PLJ's P2's?

You're correct in your ideas of how to use the weekend. Wasn't that the idea in bringing back Harry Harrison to do Saturday mornings? Please note that most music stations continue to do very well in middays on weekends, especially Saturday. Most music stations I have been associated with that have had strong weekend midday numbers tend to run close to sellout with "prime" rates.

 

[davideduardo]

i.e. if, as a non-Yanqui, this is your "chosen Yanqui crowd", you're a truly incompetent judge of Yanqui character and culture...

Coming from you, this is a supreme complement. I would never want to think that one generation can not be out of touch with another... that Akon and the Monotones and Wisin & Yandel can not live on the same iPod and that technology is the domain of only the young. You apparently do, and try to enhance those supposed barriers by engaging in gratuitous message-talk abbreviations and throw-away "Kleenex-culture" terminology.

 

[OldiesCat]

cbs-fm flip

Adma--no disrespect intended but you are way over-thinking all of this. This is what often gets radio Programmers in trouble: making something that's pretty simple far more complicated than need be.

Don't you remember Mick's reminder? "It's Only Rock & Roll". What's so stunning is so many folks' attempts to twist and turn this discussion when it's just not that complicated, all to push the seemingly "I want to stay relevant and viable in radio, so I'll say or do anything to keep the Oldies format going so I can (either) keep a gig or at least have something on the radio that reminds me of my glory days in the biz".

Fortunately, smart Programmers use neither to make strategic programming decisions.

 

[adma]

Re: cbs-fm flip

Don't you remember Mick's reminder? "It's Only Rock & Roll".

But the trouble with such a slogan in practice is that it can be as idiotic an oversimplification as the "only entertainment" excuse for shock jocks, Fox News, etc.

"Entertainment" and "rock & roll" isn't "only", except to the philistine.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: cbs-fm flip

"Entertainment" and "rock & roll" isn't "only", except to the philistine.

Men, Women, Hispanics, Blac, Other, Income over $75 k, all these I can find in Maximi$er. I can't seem to find the breakout for phhilistines, though.

Or for elitist snobs, either.

 

[OldiesCat]

Re: cbs-fm flip

Don't you remember Mick's reminder? "It's Only Rock & Roll".

But the trouble with such a slogan in practice is that it can be as idiotic an oversimplification as the "only entertainment" excuse for shock jocks, Fox News, etc.

"Entertainment" and "rock & roll" isn't "only", except to the philistine.

Hey, adma. Isn't the WHACKO radio board open right now (hint, hint)? 8)

 

[murphmac]

I am sticking to my statement. I listen to a station in Delaware called "the wave"92.1. They play all oldies. You know something, I find myself listening to this station the most even though I like classic rock and country. The reason is because they play songs that I haven't heard in a long time in addition to the "late sixties" and seventies! No I don't have to "wake up!" I will always say that commercial radio playlists are way too short. The same songs come up over and over and over. I worked at an adult contemporary station a while back and Mariah Carey would come up at least once an hour sometimes more. I wanted to vomit!! I left because I couldn't stand the repetition. With oldies, you have much more to work with. Why limit it so much? I'm not saying play all early 60's and 50's but throwing them in a few times during the hour doesn't hurt anyone. Also having sixties weekends and specialty shows enhance a station. You seem like you are describing an adult contemporary station. I don't like only sixties or only seventies or only fifties but I do like the combination. You know something ------I don't care about the "testing" thing. I think it's a bunch of crap and always have. It's one of the reasons why stations playlists are sliced to crap!

I know my opinion is probably in the minority of those on this board but it's what I've always believed.


Murphmac

 

[OldiesCat]

I am sticking to my statement. I listen to a station in Delaware called "the wave"92.1. They play all oldies. You know something, I find myself listening to this station the most even though I like classic rock and country. The reason is because they play songs that I haven't heard in a long time in addition to the "late sixties" and seventies! No I don't have to "wake up!" I will always say that commercial radio playlists are way too short. The same songs come up over and over and over. I worked at an adult contemporary station a while back and Mariah Carey would come up at least once an hour sometimes more. I wanted to vomit!! I left because I couldn't stand the repetition. With oldies, you have much more to work with. Why limit it so much? I'm not saying play all early 60's and 50's but throwing them in a few times during the hour doesn't hurt anyone. Also having sixties weekends and specialty shows enhance a station. You seem like you are describing an adult contemporary station. I don't like only sixties or only seventies or only fifties but I do like the combination. You know something ------I don't care about the "testing" thing. I think it's a bunch of crap and always have. It's one of the reasons why stations playlists are sliced to crap!

I know my opinion is probably in the minority of those on this board but it's what I've always believed.

Couple of points here, Mac:

A) you left because YOU couldn't stand the repetition? I wasn't aware we Programmed our stations for our disc jockeys' pleasures.

B) you "don't care about the 'testing' thing...it's a bunch of crap". Hey, if you want to fly blind and guess what your listeners want to hear, good luck. I prefer
(along with any successful Programmer) to know what my listeners want and expect to hear.