PPM's ( had it been around years ago )

[DavidKaye]

KSFO was the true innovator in the GWB stable.

KEX wasn't too shabby, either. In fact, KEX kept the MOR full service format long after most stations had abandoned it.

 

[michael hagerty]

KSFO was the true innovator in the GWB stable.

KEX wasn't too shabby, either. In fact, KEX kept the MOR full service format long after most stations had abandoned it.

True. I was able to DX them most nights in Reno. A very good radio station.

 

[JEREMIAH]

L KELLER:

NO, actually you were in the right demo....We had teenagers and a good 25 to death demo.

Thanks for the reply.

Jerry Gordon

 

[michael hagerty]

To all that commented on ratings ,PPM's ,etc. Thank You ,I learned much.

I was wondering if PPM's were around in the early days of Top 40 radio , 1950's / 60's / 70's ,if we would have be able to experience what many of us feel was "unique radio".
With plenty of jingles ,great DJ's and a plain "never ending fun sound" radio gave us.

Or would have the PPM's ,if around in the 50's - 70's, made radio then just a "jukebox" with no real DJ's,few jingles ,kind of blah.
Just a place to hear the sponser message?


Al

One other thought, Al...even in the glory days, no station I can name ever had a majority of the audience (apart from perhaps teens in certain dayparts). But, for example, the peak rating for KHJ that I've been able to find was about a 13 share. Huge. But it means 87 percent of the audience was listening to something else.

Most people (again, excepting teens) weren't as impressed by any single radio station as we radio fans tended to be.

 

[DavidKaye]

One other thought, Al...even in the glory days, no station I can name ever had a majority of the audience (apart from perhaps teens in certain dayparts). But, for example, the peak rating for KHJ that I've been able to find was about a 13 share. Huge. But it means 87 percent of the audience was listening to something else.

I am told that KISN in Portland used to have a 75 share evenings. But, as you mention it was teens in certain dayparts. KISN was Top 40 and had the likes of The Real Don Steele and Mike Phillips at the time.

 

[LKellerIII]

One other thought, Al...even in the glory days, no station I can name ever had a majority of the audience (apart from perhaps teens in certain dayparts). But, for example, the peak rating for KHJ that I've been able to find was about a 13 share. Huge. But it means 87 percent of the audience was listening to something else.

I am told that KISN in Portland used to have a 75 share evenings. But, as you mention it was teens in certain dayparts. KISN was Top 40 and had the likes of The Real Don Steele and Mike Phillips at the time.

The Real Don Steele was on KISN in the early 60s, before Bill Drake's stations were a factor - not sure about Phillips. I remember hearing KISN on visits to the Northwest in the late 60s and early 70s, years after RDS left town. At the time, they had competition from Drake - on 62/KGW, if I remember correctly. Funny how Drake always managed to pick up stations with the original 3 letter calls.

Anyway, IIRC, KISN was one of the few stations that held up well against the Boss juggernaurt - the other being KCBQ in San Diego, which sometimes bested Drake's KGB in the ratings.

 

[michael hagerty]

One other thought, Al...even in the glory days, no station I can name ever had a majority of the audience (apart from perhaps teens in certain dayparts). But, for example, the peak rating for KHJ that I've been able to find was about a 13 share. Huge. But it means 87 percent of the audience was listening to something else.

I am told that KISN in Portland used to have a 75 share evenings. But, as you mention it was teens in certain dayparts. KISN was Top 40 and had the likes of The Real Don Steele and Mike Phillips at the time.

Yep. And teens were a saleable demo in those days. But beyond that, there really weren't stations that everyone listened to. A 30 or 40 share in some cities for a station like WCCO still meant 60 to 70 percent of the audience listened to something else.

 

[michael hagerty]

At the time, they had competition from Drake - on 62/KGW, if I remember correctly. Funny how Drake always managed to pick up stations with the original 3 letter calls.

Anyway, IIRC, KISN was one of the few stations that held up well against the Boss juggernaurt - the other being KCBQ in San Diego, which sometimes bested Drake's KGB in the ratings.

Llew: KGW wasn't a Drake client. Just another station that copied elements of the sound. As to the three-letter call thing, there was KYA, KGB, KHJ and WOR-FM (which, since it was ID'd as "OR-FM", counts as 4). Outnumbered by KYNO, KSTN, KFRC, WRKO, CKLW, WHBQ, and KRTH.

And the Drake myth overlooks that there was a battle in many of the markets he consulted. KHJ may have knocked KRLA out of #1 in 6 months, but KRLA was still a significant factor until 1972, getting very close in 1969. World Famous Tom Murphy (a KISN alum) was doing so well in mornings on KRLA in 1971 that Drake made the decision to replace Charlie Tuna with Robert W. Morgan, who'd just bombed in Chicago. And even though KRLA wasn't a factor after 1972, KKDJ was closing in fast when Drake left RKO.

In San Francisco, KFRC took the lead early, but KYA took it back within a year and won key dayparts and demos until 1970...four years after KFRC's launch.

CKLW had significant competition from WKNR for a year or two, and WOR-FM never worked until after Drake. About the only market he truly steamrollered was Boston, where WMEX had a weaker signal and committed a series of blunders.

Anyone who's read my posts over the years knows I was a Drake fan. But those are the facts.

 

[Huff]

Ballpark guess for fall '64:

1. KRLA
2. KMPC
3. KNX
4. KFI
5. KFWB
6. KPOL
7. KLAC
8. KFAC
9. KABC
10.KHJ
11.XETRA

And some of those might be tied with others. Back then, the numbers were whole numbers, no decimal points, so ties were common.

I don't have a full ranker from 1964, but the July 1964 Hooper report showed KRLA with a 16.4 all-period average share and KFWB in second with a 13.6

 

[LKellerIII]

At the time, they had competition from Drake - on 62/KGW, if I remember correctly. Funny how Drake always managed to pick up stations with the original 3 letter calls.

Anyway, IIRC, KISN was one of the few stations that held up well against the Boss juggernaurt - the other being KCBQ in San Diego, which sometimes bested Drake's KGB in the ratings.

Llew: KGW wasn't a Drake client. Just another station that copied elements of the sound. As to the three-letter call thing, there was KYA, KGB, KHJ and WOR-FM (which, since it was ID'd as "OR-FM", counts as 4). Outnumbered by KYNO, KSTN, KFRC, WRKO, CKLW, WHBQ, and KRTH.

And the Drake myth overlooks that there was a battle in many of the markets he consulted. KHJ may have knocked KRLA out of #1 in 6 months, but KRLA was still a significant factor until 1972, getting very close in 1969. World Famous Tom Murphy (a KISN alum) was doing so well in mornings on KRLA in 1971 that Drake made the decision to replace Charlie Tuna with Robert W. Morgan, who'd just bombed in Chicago. And even though KRLA wasn't a factor after 1972, KKDJ was closing in fast when Drake left RKO.

In San Francisco, KFRC took the lead early, but KYA took it back within a year and won key dayparts and demos until 1970...four years after KFRC's launch.

CKLW had significant competition from WKNR for a year or two, and WOR-FM never worked until after Drake. About the only market he truly steamrollered was Boston, where WMEX had a weaker signal and committed a series of blunders.

Anyone who's read my posts over the years knows I was a Drake fan. But those are the facts.

Thanks for the info, Michael - very educational as always. I guess it is interesting that KRLA continued to do reasonably well - I remember KRLA being very good in the 69 period you speak of. I've read some comments (on Reelradio, IIRC), to the effect that KRLA was actually trying to fail in the late 60s, because the members of the trust that held the license for 1110 wanted to buy the station. (The former owner had been Jack Kent Cooke's corporation, but the license had been yanked by the FCC a few years earlier due to improprieties). I believe Johnny Darin confirmed that HE felt KRLA was trying to fail, given that they had removed him as PD after he had taken KRLA to within reach of KHJ's ratings.

Any comment on that?

 

[michael hagerty]

Ballpark guess for fall '64:

1. KRLA
2. KMPC
3. KNX
4. KFI
5. KFWB
6. KPOL
7. KLAC
8. KFAC
9. KABC
10.KHJ
11.XETRA

And some of those might be tied with others. Back then, the numbers were whole numbers, no decimal points, so ties were common.

I don't have a full ranker from 1964, but the July 1964 Hooper report showed KRLA with a 16.4 all-period average share and KFWB in second with a 13.6

Yeah, that actually makes way more sense. KFWB's big drop didn't come until KHJ flipped to Boss Radio.

 

[michael hagerty]

At the time, they had competition from Drake - on 62/KGW, if I remember correctly. Funny how Drake always managed to pick up stations with the original 3 letter calls.

Anyway, IIRC, KISN was one of the few stations that held up well against the Boss juggernaurt - the other being KCBQ in San Diego, which sometimes bested Drake's KGB in the ratings.

Llew: KGW wasn't a Drake client. Just another station that copied elements of the sound. As to the three-letter call thing, there was KYA, KGB, KHJ and WOR-FM (which, since it was ID'd as "OR-FM", counts as 4). Outnumbered by KYNO, KSTN, KFRC, WRKO, CKLW, WHBQ, and KRTH.

And the Drake myth overlooks that there was a battle in many of the markets he consulted. KHJ may have knocked KRLA out of #1 in 6 months, but KRLA was still a significant factor until 1972, getting very close in 1969. World Famous Tom Murphy (a KISN alum) was doing so well in mornings on KRLA in 1971 that Drake made the decision to replace Charlie Tuna with Robert W. Morgan, who'd just bombed in Chicago. And even though KRLA wasn't a factor after 1972, KKDJ was closing in fast when Drake left RKO.

In San Francisco, KFRC took the lead early, but KYA took it back within a year and won key dayparts and demos until 1970...four years after KFRC's launch.

CKLW had significant competition from WKNR for a year or two, and WOR-FM never worked until after Drake. About the only market he truly steamrollered was Boston, where WMEX had a weaker signal and committed a series of blunders.

Anyone who's read my posts over the years knows I was a Drake fan. But those are the facts.

Thanks for the info, Michael - very educational as always. I guess it is interesting that KRLA continued to do reasonably well - I remember KRLA being very good in the 69 period you speak of. I've read some comments (on Reelradio, IIRC), to the effect that KRLA was actually trying to fail in the late 60s, because the members of the trust that held the license for 1110 wanted to buy the station. (The former owner had been Jack Kent Cooke's corporation, but the license had been yanked by the FCC a few years earlier due to improprieties). I believe Johnny Darin confirmed that HE felt KRLA was trying to fail, given that they had removed him as PD after he had taken KRLA to within reach of KHJ's ratings.

Any comment on that?

Llew: I believe that's true, too. According to Pulse (the only ratings I have for that era) Darin took KRLA from #8 with a 4.0 in the fall of 1968 to #3 with a 7.3 in the fall of 1969...only to be cut loose. Amazingly, KHJ only lost 2/10ths of a point during that same time (13.0 to 12-point-8), so apparently Darin found a huge listener base that wasn't going to listen to KHJ no matter what...making it all the more remarkable that he took a 9 point gap and narrowed it to 4.5. The following fall (1970), with Darin gone, KRLA dropped back to a 4.0.

 

[davideduardo]

Llew: KGW wasn't a Drake client. Just another station that copied elements of the sound. As to the three-letter call thing, there was KYA, KGB, KHJ and WOR-FM (which, since it was ID'd as "OR-FM", counts as 4). Outnumbered by KYNO, KSTN, KFRC, WRKO, CKLW, WHBQ, and KRTH.

Add Scooter Seagraves' KAKC in Oklahoma... a true D/C client.

And the Drake myth overlooks that there was a battle in many of the markets he consulted. KHJ may have knocked KRLA out of #1 in 6 months, but KRLA was still a significant factor until 1972, getting very close in 1969.

A key element for KHJ and KFRC was the "pair" of former Poi Boys, Ron Jacobs and Tom Rounds. Rounds left KFRC fairly quickly to do concert promotion and music videos, and by '69, Jacobs was gone and the two were busy putting together American Top 40.

In San Francisco, KFRC took the lead early, but KYA took it back within a year and won key dayparts and demos until 1970...four years after KFRC's launch.

Again, they lost their PM but not before Tom Rounds put together what was considered the first broad based, multi-artist rock concert ever.

CKLW had significant competition from WKNR for a year or two,

Keener had a horrible signal; in Pulse and Hooper, which had small survey areas they did fine. Arbitron's first market was Detroit, in '65, and, although i have never seen the books, I am told that CKLW dominated there due in part to the larger survey area.

and WOR-FM never worked until after Drake.

'OR FM was a strange hybrid, sort of a hot AC before its time. That was done, apparently, due to management as much as failure to recognize that Top 40 would work on FM.

Drake did best where there was a great PD... everything we knew about Drake indicated he was a perfect complement for an intense, local PD who had an obsession for execution, promotion and talent.

 

[DavidKaye]

In San Francisco, KFRC took the lead early, but KYA took it back within a year and won key dayparts and demos until 1970...four years after KFRC's launch.

Having listened to both, and having lots of friends who did, it was a no-brainer. KYA had class. KFRC sounded like Los Angeles, and we hated the LA-sound. We'd listen a bit but KFRC just wasn't cool. KFRC wasn't cool until after Drake left and people such as Michael Spears were running things.

Listening to old KFRC airchecks, early KFRC sounded almost exactly like KHJ except for no "Boss Radio" or "Million Dollar Weekend" slogans (which KEWB and KYA respectively had been using). But aside from that KFRC was a KHJ clone in those days.

Fast forward 5 years and KFRC sounds like a totally different station from KHJ, and much better for it.

 

[DavidKaye]

Llew: KGW wasn't a Drake client. Just another station that copied elements of the sound. As to the three-letter call thing, there was KYA, KGB, KHJ and WOR-FM (which, since it was ID'd as "OR-FM", counts as 4). Outnumbered by KYNO, KSTN, KFRC, WRKO, CKLW, WHBQ, and KRTH.

[/quote]

KYA was never a Drake client. He tested his ideas out on KYA pre-Boss Radio, while PD there, but left after a brief stint. KYA may have adopted a few of his ideas but KYA went their own way.

Also, was KSTN consulted by Drake? Sure, they used the Drake jingles and formatics, and there was a close relationship between Knox Larue and Gene Chenault, but I think that was it.

 

[michael hagerty]

KYA was never a Drake client. He tested his ideas out on KYA pre-Boss Radio, while PD there, but left after a brief stint. KYA may have adopted a few of his ideas but KYA went their own way.

Also, was KSTN consulted by Drake? Sure, they used the Drake jingles and formatics, and there was a close relationship between Knox Larue and Gene Chenault, but I think that was it.

David: I wasn't clear. I mentioned KYA because Drake had been PD there. You're right, he never consulted. He did, however, consult KSTN while doing KYNO and KGB before taking on RKO. I don't know if he continued to consult KSTN beyond that or for how long.

 

[michael hagerty]

In San Francisco, KFRC took the lead early, but KYA took it back within a year and won key dayparts and demos until 1970...four years after KFRC's launch.

Having listened to both, and having lots of friends who did, it was a no-brainer. KYA had class. KFRC sounded like Los Angeles, and we hated the LA-sound. We'd listen a bit but KFRC just wasn't cool. KFRC wasn't cool until after Drake left and people such as Michael Spears were running things.

Listening to old KFRC airchecks, early KFRC sounded almost exactly like KHJ except for no "Boss Radio" or "Million Dollar Weekend" slogans (which KEWB and KYA respectively had been using). But aside from that KFRC was a KHJ clone in those days.

Fast forward 5 years and KFRC sounds like a totally different station from KHJ, and much better for it.

David: I'm with you to a point. Under Tom Rounds, KFRC sounded pretty much like KGB and KHJ (though Rounds fought...and lost...to include more San Francisco music).

In 1968, under Les Turpin, with jocks like K.O. Bayley, Dave Diamond and Dale Dorman, I think 610 was very entertaining.

It tightened back up under the next two PDs, Ted Atkins and Paul Drew, but I think KFRC's post-Drake era actually began while Drake was still there...in 1972, under Sebastian Stone. It was almost as though Drake just went hands-off and let SS do what he wanted.

If anything, Michael Spears tightened things back up again, but it was a different vision and he was working for Paul Drew. Still, given Drew's reputation for micro-managing PDs and his formula RKO approach to KFRC when he was day-to-day PD, he gave Spears a lot of room to set KFRC apart as a uniquely Northern California radio station and several cuts above the rest of the RKO pack (which by that point had lost a lot of its luster).

 

[LKellerIII]

KYA was never a Drake client. He tested his ideas out on KYA pre-Boss Radio, while PD there, but left after a brief stint. KYA may have adopted a few of his ideas but KYA went their own way.

Also, was KSTN consulted by Drake? Sure, they used the Drake jingles and formatics, and there was a close relationship between Knox Larue and Gene Chenault, but I think that was it.

David: I wasn't clear. I mentioned KYA because Drake had been PD there. You're right, he never consulted. He did, however, consult KSTN while doing KYNO and KGB before taking on RKO. I don't know if he continued to consult KSTN beyond that or for how long.

On that subject, I though y'all might be entertained by "The Official KYA Top 30 Survey" from October 29, 1962. Bill Drake (great crew-cut) was morning man. Also includes pics of Bob Mitchell (Bobby Tripp later at KHJ) 3-6, Tom Donahue 6-9, a young Tom(my) Saunders 9-midnight, and Johnny Hayes (who later did decades at KRLA, and retired a few years ago from KRTH) from midnight to 6.

Number one song - Big Girls Don't Cry

Quite a piece of radio history. Courtesy of the Bay Area Radio Museum. Gotta love the internet.

http://www.bayarearadio.org/surveys/kya/kya_survey_oct-29-1962.shtml

 

[1069_KIFR]

Sirius/XM ( had it been around years ago )

 

[recto101]

What were KNBC-AM 680 Ratings and KNBC-FM 99.7 ratings before they became KNBR? I figured the reason the KCBS call letters stayed in SFO instead of migrating to LA was because they had years of high ratings even before the all-news era.