Processing clips

[Info-warrior]

Info-warrior says “consumers are going to judge the sound of radio stations using many of those cheaply made tuners” I don’t think that common/massive radio listeners care so much if the station which host their loving DJ presenter have that expensive processing unit on air even badly they don’t give a dime how sounds, they only listen his favourite DJ presenter. Only I am try to say that, majority of listener’s that they wants from a radio station is a real “product” and NOT “fancy processing tricks”.

Thanks a lot.
Best regards and greetings to all from Athens GR.
Phaser

True to a point. If the station is badly processed, people are going to stop listening, even if they don't know how to describe what's wrong, it's going to effect their perception. Case in point, In Connecticut, there's a station called KC101 for more than a year it was processed with an all to the wall sound. As I stated earlier, I don't have golden ears by any standard, but this station had gross pumping, breathing, and distortion. Sure, it was louder than the others, but so what. Whenever I asked someone if they listened to KC101 their usual response was I don't like it, it's too distorted, or after a while it just gets irritating.

Around this time last year, the processing was retuned and KC101 sounds quite good and guess what, it's still pretty loud too.

 

[The F Mister]

Come on Frank do you seriously think that they still would with all this arguing throughout this thread?

Yes!

We live in a world today, were pessimism reigns. Driven by the media, culture now dictates that if a life experience yields 9 positive elements out of a possible 10, we must overly focus on the one negative. Instead of realizing the 9 to the good, culture magnifies the one negative as being larger than the other 9. By example, look at the political arena here in the USA.

I have studied this, and sadly, must report that our world, mostly driven by American culture, has proven this to be true.

-Frank Foti

As being not a manufacturer I am not so much in this matter as you are so I must respect your point on this. I guess we have the same effect here in the Netherlands which is seen as a "orban country" this influenced me in my early radio years. Now I know better luckily because I for myself look further than what majority say's. I just don't hope that you try to "shut us up" Frank, because that is somewhat the feeling I had when you said to move this "having fun" elsewhere (list-server). Maybe you didn't mean it like this but it's hard to judge via a post on a board and not knowing you personal.

 

[FFoti1]

As being not a manufacturer I am not so much in this matter as you are so I must respect your point on this. I guess we have the same effect here in the Netherlands which is seen as a "orban country" this influenced me in my early radio years. Now I know better luckily because I for myself look further than what majority say's. I just don't hope that you try to "shut us up" Frank, because that is somewhat the feeling I had when you said to move this "having fun" elsewhere (list-server). Maybe you didn't mean it like this but it's hard to judge via a post on a board and not knowing you personal.

I look at this forum, as another, where the professional side of broadcasting is discussed. It is a business, for the broadcasters themselves, for those employed as engineers, and even for myself - who is developing equipment for the industry.

Thus, it matters considerably when topics that affect the professional side are turned into the 'fun' of it all. If fun is the intention here, then by all means move this thread to another location that is hobbyist intended. BTW: That is not shutting anybody up, it is asking that this forum be left to those who intend to dialog about the profession.

I too, am a hobbyist. Some may be aware of my interest in Model Railroading. On account of that, I log into many model railroad list-servers. I highly doubt, that any of the major railroads would appreciate my hobbyist modeling views on any professional railroading list-server.

Same applies here...

-Frank Foti

 

[The F Mister]

Well in that case maybe Goran can start a bulletin board (like phpbb) beside the upload server, and if not I am.

 

[Phaser]

Hi again Gentlemen, Broadcast I don’t see anybody here to give some details/proves for his up-loaded files except you (I must admit you are a honest guy), neither nobody answer yet on my before questions so that “bo-peep say it all.
You say “I think we should get back to the main reason for the uploads” really there is any “essential reason”? the only reason I see here is a “fun” just to satisfies our enthusiast curiosity where is the professional point of view? dialogue, creativeness, imagination, honest exchanges of info without any “caginess”.

Sorry but I though that radio-info.com was for professionals from professionals.

Kevin, if you believe that distorted/clipped track of Tina Arena is “a good test track” you are Free to believe anything you like, but I must remind you my favorite reveal phrase by Bob Orban “Garbage in MORE Garbage out” now if the exaggerate distortion is your Goal its ok.

Its sad to see people use that of today “scrap” audio sources Hyper-processed CD, mp3, hard disks etc to compare and adjust processors, and worse that Nobody make a move to reverse that awfully state (maybe the good old days has pass for good and all rest in peace in they “couch” watching TV with a beer on hand

I wonder if you ever put on your expensive car of your wildest dreams instead of “unleaded fuel” a “petroleum”? or worse feed with “garbage from fast food” your loving newborn baby? I am sure on both cases you don’t treat so bad, then why don’t give a dim on with what? feed your examine processor? Before blame that or this brand? Check your outboard units and think how many years pass from your recent visit on “ear doctor”?.


Have a nice day.
Greetings from Greece.
Best regards
Phaser

 

[gtomas]

Been a little busy lately, so I'll be brief.

First, thank you yeoldeschool for a such a thorough and scientific analysis of Adobe Audition normalizing/metering issue. I couldn't have done it better myself!

Regarding the clips, as I've said numerous times before... They were never meant to be used for direct comparison between processors and it seems pretty obvious to me that they can't be. Given they were recorded in different environments, that you don't know how they were recorded, with what settings on the processor, source and recording equipment, etc. The only way to select and purchase a processor is to demo the units you are interested in (better yet, demo all the units the budget can afford!) in a direct A/B/C/ comparison on your station, with your program and with you adjusting them. That's the only way!

Having said that, the clips were meant to be recordings of various radio stations as well as different tastes in sound. For me, it's quite interesting to hear the type of sound and sound texture Stace is looking for in Greece, as well as Mike in NYC, for example. Including the pre-emphasis difference. If it wasn't for this opportunity I would never get to hear what a fine job Broadcast did on his 8100/XT2 too. And these are the things you can hear in the clips, no matter how they were recorded. Not to judge a processor per se, but a whole sound someone has been able to produce. And despite the peculiarities of the source audio and the way it was recorded, there are a lot of things happening dynamically (depending on how the processor was set up) that you can hear, as you're listening in the same "aural environment" within the song.

Once again, the clips are not meant to be any reference point in purchasing a processor and they NEVER should be used for making a decision on buying one. As Mike said a couple of times, often it's not the processor but a person behind the knobs that makes a difference.

To Phaser - Tina Arena track is just a song I like and to me it gives a lot of clues on how processor acts dynamically. It's not the perfect example of audiophile recording and it shouldn't be. Rarely do we play Chesky records on the radio, we typically play much, much worse things on the radio. But to call it garbage is nothing less but a gross exaggeration.


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[Phaser]

Hello Mr. Goran, I am glad that you are here, of course I do agree with most of all your write but yours writings did NOT match with that I read from time to time from users on this thread which sorry but looks to me more like “a café bar full of riotous uneducated enthusiasts?” rather than a “civilized place for educated passionate with the art of processing”

Gentlemen processing is an ART which started from some great optimist and purist minds, processing is NOT a Football Arena as the “loudness war” demands!!!

By the way I like too the “Chains” song but I never I use it to see “how processor acts dynamically”, instead I may use another song with similarities to see the response of my setting up but carefully chosen it without any clipped flat tops as that song and majority of today audio sources full of distortion even if you name it “gross exaggeration” or I clipped distortion or else, for me its pointless to spend even one sec to test such track because I already know (as all we know) that the result will be more and MORE distorted also (as all we know) there is NO processing box that by magical and mysterious way “mask” any defect music track and make it back crystal clear, at the same way its impossible to alter the state of an full clipped flat tops track (like that radio plays) even if recent processors use clever tricks like “Widowing Gate” or you name it, the exaggerated distortion will be there and haunting you/us

Gentlemen maybe you don’t imagine it but YOU have the Power here on “forum” and “blogs” around the web to EDUCATE people so DON’T throughway that power you have with silly arguments and “childish” fights “who is the best etc nonsense”.
Educate younger people, fight for a more clear audio sources, fight MP3, fight for a better radio a real radio, fight for better music, EDUCATE them.

NO I am not something like a “messiah I am only just a “music lover” and when I seat down to listen the music I listen to the music and NOT the processing by itself

Of course Goran I DON’T wait to listen Chesky records on the radio but at least I fight (with my way) here on Athens for an “civilized” radio.

Have a nice day.
Greetings from Greece.
Best regards
Phaser

 

[kevtronics]

For those who are concerned about the clipping on "Chains", I just uploaded an "unclipped" version. I took the original audio track and ran it through Cool Edit Pro's "Clip Restoration" process, which attempts to recreate the peaks that were clipped. In this case, it extended the peaks by 2.5 dB. Compared to today's CD mastering practices, that's really not a lot of clipping -- barely even enough to be audible when done correctly.

p.s. In addition to being a good test of audio processing, "Chains" would also be considered a "lost hit" for the music directors here. Upon its U.S. release in 1996, it reached #17 on the U.S. Adult Contemporary chart, as well as #20 on Adult Top 40 and #38 on the overall Billboard Hot 100, but it basically disappeared since then, and I've personally never heard it played on U.S. radio in the past decade. Overall, Tina Arena has had far more success in Europe and in her native Australia than in North America.

 

[Info-warrior]

Hello Mr. Goran, I am glad that you are here, of course I do agree with most of all your write but yours writings did NOT match with that I read from time to time from users on this thread which sorry but looks to me more like “a café bar full of riotous uneducated enthusiasts?” rather than a “civilized place for educated passionate with the art of processing”


Have a nice day.
Greetings from Greece.
Best regards
Phaser

I thought I was learning a thing or two from this discussion. I guess I fit into the uneducated catagory as I am not, nore, hopefully ever gave the impression, an engineer. My radio experience consists solely of board op/producing at a comercial AM for the last 8 years and 4 prior to that at my college radio station.

I was enjoying the discussion, even if there was some personal bias. The title of the thread is Processing Clips: I interpreted that to mean this was a more layback, less techno based thread. My mistake.

I can read this discussion is stirring some ill will, and I don't wish to cause any. Therefore, I retract any commentary, thoughts I've made regarding any of the clips posted.

I hope everyone who celebrated it had a happy Thanksgiving.

 

[Robert Bass]

I can read this discussion is stirring some ill will, and I don't wish to cause any. Therefore, I retract any commentary, thoughts I've made regarding any of the clips posted.

Given this is a forum, I don't think you should retract anything. but that's just my opinion.

Phaser, I don't see this "mine is better than yours" you speak of. I see this as individual users of products, sharing their knowledge. When it turns into name calling and personal insults, then we can talk about childish behaivor. Thankfully, the moderators have good oversight of that sort of thing.

Frank, I am not a professional engineer, but like some of the others I am a hobbiest / enthusiest of this sort of thing. I must respectfully disagree that this site is by professionals for professionals. We have both sides of the table sharing their experiences, and that's what this forum should be. There are plenty of non-experts posting all over this, and other message board websites. As long as it doeesn't become a bickerfest, there's nothing wrong with sharing a good perspective. By the way, I am also into model railroading!

Phaser did bring up an excellent point about the quality of today's CD's. The hyper-compression mastering completely destroys what digital's original purpose was intended. Unfortunately the loudness wars that individual radio stations employ, do compound the problem. Mastering engineers want their recordings to be as loud as the radio, and in my book that is foolish.

I will close off with a note to those mastering engineers: If your CD is hypercompressed, I ain't using it on the air.

R

 

[kevtronics]

I will close off with a note to those mastering engineers: If your CD is hypercompressed, I ain't using it on the air.

In all fairness, a good number of songs are sonically smashed right in the recording studio, by an artist and/or producer who wants it to sound that way. Or sometimes a heavily clipped bass drum beat is used to give a certain 'effect', such as on Nelly Furtado's "Say It Right", resulting in a distorted sound even if the rest of the song's production followed good quality standards.

 

[Robert Bass]

I will close off with a note to those mastering engineers: If your CD is hypercompressed, I ain't using it on the air.

In all fairness, a good number of songs are sonically smashed right in the recording studio, by an artist and/or producer who wants it to sound that way. Or sometimes a heavily clipped bass drum beat is used to give a certain 'effect', such as on Nelly Furtado's "Say It Right", resulting in a distorted sound even if the rest of the song's production followed good quality standards.

I am talking hypercompressed as in all you see is a solid block of green in Adobe Audition. Green Day had an album like this...

R

 

[Phaser]

Info-warrior, its not necessary “retract” any of yours commentary, you are Free person to write your opinions whatever is that, if you like to place your self on “uneducated” I don’t have any problem with that, let me please explain how I see the phrase “uneducated” is a person which first of all don’t know the “amplitude of his knowledge” and second “uneducated” is a person which is “stuck” at his “obsessions” and is unable to see the “dark side of the moon” which “illume’ it from someone with good “intent” any way looks that you don’t catch my writings, I am sorry if annoy you some how.

For example the “Robert Bass” looks to understand what I mean, Robert If you seek past writings easily may see that “childish behaviors”, I only try to say is “stop to play” and EDUCATE the people which pass from Radio-info, educate them to demand a more clear audio from radio, educated them how to stop the “silly loudness war”
educated them how to stop the music labels to feed us with “scrap” audio files, educated them do not buy music from iPod etc online downloading music stores.

Give an strong “biff” to PD’s just to avoid using mp3 or hyper-compressed CD’s at his on air, listeners cant “undo” the distorted music that they play but only can lower the volume level or worse for the “fool PD” is to change radio station.

If NOW don’t do something with distorted and low fi audio sources which using on radio today then things will be worse with the coming of HD radio which CODING everything, can you imagine how BAD may sound the “promising” hi quality radio if we feed it with today BAD audio sources.

“Radio Bass” congratulation spread the world that “a note to those mastering engineers: If your CD is hypercompressed, I ain't using it on the air”.


That’s all folks.
Greetings from (original Athens of Greece.
Phaser.

 

[FFoti1]

Frank, I am not a professional engineer, but like some of the others I am a hobbiest / enthusiest of this sort of thing. I must respectfully disagree that this site is by professionals for professionals. We have both sides of the table sharing their experiences, and that's what this forum should be. There are plenty of non-experts posting all over this, and other message board websites. As long as it doeesn't become a bickerfest, there's nothing wrong with sharing a good perspective. By the way, I am also into model railroading!

Robert,

Please don't misunderstand my comments about the 'professional' aspects. I know that everyone involved here might not be in the business, and that's A-OK by me. All are welcome. As Phaser mentioned, this forum should be used for educating. Hell, our business is shrinking, and this forum is actually a way to not only educate, but recruit!

But, this thread has not been what the claim was, to share audio clips. It has turned into attacks at various products, and claims that are positioned as 'know-it-all', when they are not. There's no way any of us can truly identify the sound of some processor based upon some clip taken from who knows where. Doesn't matter what gear was used to make the capture, there's still way too many variables to discolor the audio differently from what it was intended.

It's my opinion that this thread has been full of ego, and hobbyist-type claims, as compared to value. Hence my 'professional' comment. Just as with my model railroad analogy. While I'm a hobbyist in railroading, I'd be welcomed into a large scale railroad forum, as long as I presented myself in the proper manner. The same applies here.

-Frank Foti

 

[The F Mister]

Before this thread turns in to a " let's move lables to stop hyperprocessing cd's" there is already a thread about that here.

 

[kevtronics]

But, this thread has not been what the claim was, to share audio clips. It has turned into attacks at various products, and claims that are positioned as 'know-it-all', when they are not.

With all due respect, if you think we should not be allowed to describe what we hear, both good and BAD, without fear of being accused of "attacking" any manufacturer's products, then you are taking our opinions way too seriously and personally.

p.s. You should spend some time in the U.K. DAB newsgroup (rec.radio.digital). The people over there positively loathe any kind of "competitive" audio processing, and scream bloody murder when they find out that their favorite station is using an Omnia or Optimod. Many of them even think that classical music should be broadcast using no audio processing at all!

 

[Robert Bass]

But, this thread has not been what the claim was, to share audio clips. It has turned into attacks at various products, and claims that are positioned as 'know-it-all', when they are not.

With all due respect, if you think we should not be allowed to describe what we hear, both good and BAD, without fear of being accused of "attacking" any manufacturer's products, then you are taking our opinions way too seriously and personally.

p.s. You should spend some time in the U.K. DAB newsgroup (rec.radio.digital). The people over there positively loathe any kind of "competitive" audio processing, and scream bloody murder when they find out that their favorite station is using an Omnia or Optimod. Many of them even think that classical music should be broadcast using no audio processing at all!

Hmmmm.... Is it me, or has Frank already forgotten about that little website ad starring "Orban and Omnia"? Kinda seems like it...

R

 

[FFoti1]

Hmmmm.... Is it me, or has Frank already forgotten about that little website ad starring "Orban and Omnia"? Kinda seems like it...

Nothing's been forgotten. That ad does not position itself with a "know-it-all" tone. Same cannot be said of this thread.

-Frank Foti

 

[FFoti1]

With all due respect, if you think we should not be allowed to describe what we hear, both good and BAD, without fear of being accused of "attacking" any manufacturer's products, then you are taking our opinions way too seriously and personally.

p.s. You should spend some time in the U.K. DAB newsgroup (rec.radio.digital). The people over there positively loathe any kind of "competitive" audio processing, and scream bloody murder when they find out that their favorite station is using an Omnia or Optimod. Many of them even think that classical music should be broadcast using no audio processing at all!

There's a difference between describing what appears to sound "good or bad" and acting like a self-serving know-it-all. That's my point.

BTW: I know the UK quite well. There has always been a group whom loath processing, so not much has changed with regards to that. This dates back a very long time.

-Frank Foti

 

[kevtronics]

There's a difference between describing what appears to sound "good or bad" and acting like a self-serving know-it-all. That's my point.

Point taken, but I hope you can see how it seems a bit hypocritical for you to lash out against what you perceive to be baseless criticism of your products, when you have a video on your web site (and on YouTube) containing baseless criticism of Orban's products.

After all, if you say that Optimods use a fly swatter to take care of highs, I can just as easily say that Omnias use a trash compactor to take care of lows.