Processing clips

[wgliradio]

I never understand the claims that 8100/XT2 has such great treble. Yes, the treble never gets a hole punched in it, instead it sounds like all high end material is performed with sand paper or dry toast.

Scritchy, scritchy, scritch scritch.

I would MUCH rather have some slight (e.g. controlled and minimal) ducking on the high end.

This is where artistic difference will always come into play, I cannot stand ANY ducking on the high end at all.

 

[gtomas]

Hi Cornelius,

First let me address the sharing of opinions on public forums issue... I don't believe in keeping opinions to yourself and not discussing with anybody. Or discussing them with just a small group of people around you (that are probably similarly minded). I believe in putting your opinions in public to be criticised, questioned and tested, in giving opionions even if you turn out to be wrong, in sharing experiences, learning and interacting as the only way to grow. I don't believe in some manafcturers (actually it's only one) claiming that poeple giving ""incorrect opinions"" will influence their sale. If something isn't there, you're not going to hear just because somebody wrote it on a forum. If it doesn't bother you (like this issue doesn't bother RealityCheckr, for example) it's not start to bother you now. And if it is there, then you're just trying to hush the critiques, which is not serving the public interest. In the long run, I sincerely don't believe asking people to keep opinions to themselves helps anybody...

I also don't believe just any opinion or critique of a certain product has to be immediately labeled as "bashing" (or "panning" as you call it) which is what happens often here. That doesn't mean that some people are not actually bashing certain products, but that is usually obvious and quickly either corrected or ignored by the group. I believe people reading this are quite capable of discerning whether somebody is bashing a product or not for themselves.

I just needed to vent this out, I'll reply on the actual processing when I get back...


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[Info-warrior]

I listened to the "Sweet Jane" clips and between the Omnia one and 8100/XT I favor the Orban sound. However the Omnia sounds like it has to potential to be just as defined as the Orban--a little more tweaking oughta do it.
I uploaded a clip of the Compellor and Ultramod combo on this song. The good news is the HF doesn't duck on siblance. No, it just shreds like tearing paper.
I did make one change from the previous clips. I set the Compellor a lot more towards leveling so there's almost never any compression done in it. The sound seems more natural to me this way.

Happy New Year

 

[kevtronics]

It is important to note that Broadcast and Goran Tomas (GT) are using 50 uS pre-emphasis on their processors, while the Omnia.One clip was made using 75 uS pre-emphasis (as noted in the file name).

Info-Warrior... which pre-emphasis are you using on your Ultramod?

 

[kevtronics]

I've uploaded the Sweet Jane track processed by Omnia-6 and with a factory RocknRoll preset. Recorded with 50 µs and directly from the output of a processor and without normalizing.

Goran, one odd thing I noticed about your Omnia 6 recording -- there's no 15 kHz filter! The HF response goes straight out to 20 kHz. Did you have the 15 kHz filter bypassed on the FM processing chain, or did you record it from the output of its "HD" processing chain (if yours has been upgraded to the equivalent of a 6EX)?

 

[kevtronics]

I did make one change from the previous clips. I set the Compellor a lot more towards leveling so there's almost never any compression done in it. The sound seems more natural to me this way.

When I had a Compellor (original model 300) I found the best sound was with the Processing Balance control set to about the 9 o'clock position, just like you figured out. That way the compression kicks in when needed to quickly respond to an increase in audio level, but when the audio level is smooth, only the levelling is active (no green dots above the red dot). At the factory recommended position (12 o'clock), there is an unnecessary amount of compression being applied all the time, even when the audio level coming in is flat as a board.

One thing I couldn't get rid of, though, was the "bass pullback" effect, when a strong bass line would kick in and duck down the level of the whole audio. The later Compellor models 320 and 320A introduced some new features to help reduce this problem, but on the original model 300 it seems to be unavoidable.

 

[gtomas]

It is possible to get that song playing correctly through the Omnia 6...At my former job before leaving engineering, a couple of my stations would play that tune regularly. Because I spent plenty of time getting to know the processor inside and out, I was able to totally eliminate this and the "breathing" issue as well. Its simply a matter of adjusting for your music format.

The factory presets on any processor rarely play well with most material, I've found. In fact, Orban factory presets (while not causing ducking on HF material) totally suck the life out of snare drums, for instance, but I'm not going to pan the box on a user forum because of that. One needs to explore the entire processor before returning a "I give up - this thing sucks -- guess what buddy, your processor has issues" response.

There are lots of things to tweak in the Omnia, and yes, it takes quite a bit of time to tweak!

I only say this as an end user who knows that it is totally possible to not have the problems you describe!

Now, folks...there are nuggets of info in this response that could provide clues to solving the Cowboy Junkies sibilance mystery on your Omnias...now it is your challenge to put the info to use!

Let's see how good you guys are at tweaking processing!

Let me just point out at the beginning that I might be sensitive to this kind of high-end breathing and that others might not find it that objectionable. But ever since I bought the processor back in 2004. I've been trying to alleviate this problem. From adjusting the settings on the front panel to setting parameters like AGC and limiter ratio controls, AGC thresholds, gating thresholds, peak weighting, you name it... However, sooner or later find out that no matter what you do to the box you can't get too much away from what the designer had in mind (and still sound good). You can say anything but not that I didn't spend enough time with the box or explore it. In fact, I spent way too much time, looking back... Should have just sold it and bought an 8400/8500 (which was/is not possible for various reasons).

Anyway, about a year ago I had a preset that was the best compromise that I could make. Just to be sure that this is the best that could be done, I sent my tweaked preset to Frank to see what he could do with it. I must say he was very helpful and he actually improved the preset further reducing the problem. To be fair to him I uploaded the clip processed with that preset. You'll find it handles these types of songs (HF transients) much better than the factory presets.

So yes, I agree it is possible to make a preset on which this song will sound acceptable. The problem is stations here (unlike in USA) are not formatted. So, one moment we might be playing Sweet Jane, the other latest remix by Roger Sanchez. The tweaked preset that Frank further tweaked, didn't sound as good on other material as it did with difficult program material. This is where I finally (after two years) gave up on the idea of trying to solve this problem and just decided to live with it. I spent several months making the preset that I have now and finally I can say that I'm happy. I haven't touched my Omnia since summer! The breathing problem is still there, but now I just tolerate it.

But as a user, I never stopped wishing that annoyance would be solved (without too much compromise). I won't be dealing with my Omnia for quite a while so it doesn't matter to me that much any more, but like I said, it's nice to hear Omnia.One doesn't suffer from it...


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[gtomas]

I've uploaded the Sweet Jane track processed by Omnia-6 and with a factory RocknRoll preset. Recorded with 50 µs and directly from the output of a processor and without normalizing.

Goran, one odd thing I noticed about your Omnia 6 recording -- there's no 15 kHz filter! The HF response goes straight out to 20 kHz. Did you have the 15 kHz filter bypassed on the FM processing chain, or did you record it from the output of its "HD" processing chain (if yours has been upgraded to the equivalent of a 6EX)?

Yes Kevin you're right, the clip was recorded from the HD output by mistake. Doing too many things at the same time... I've renamed it accordingly and recorded the FM one. There's not much difference in regards to the ducking issue becasue the problem is with the GR going on before the final clipping/limiting. Also, 75 µs preemphasis wouldn't do much difference as well, since Omnia inserts pre-emphasis after the limiters. I can make you a 75 µs clip if you're really interested.


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[CalifZeke]

Let me just point out at the beginning that I might be sensitive to this kind of high-end breathing and that others might not find it that objectionable. But ever since I bought the processor back in 2004. I've been trying to alleviate this problem. From adjusting the settings on the front panel to setting parameters like AGC and limiter ratio controls, AGC thresholds, gating thresholds, peak weighting, you name it... However, sooner or later find out that no matter what you do to the box you can't get too much away from what the designer had in mind (and still sound good). You can say anything but not that I didn't spend enough time with the box or explore it. In fact, I spent way too much time, looking back... Should have just sold it and bought an 8400/8500 (which was/is not possible for various reasons).

Regards,
Goran Tomas

Sounds like Goran's not as good a processing guru as he thinks. Based upon the claims he makes, he wouldn't stand a chance at processing a station here in the USA.

Goran will pick on Omnia, but he never complains how orban sucks all detail out of audio.

 

[CalifZeke]

I only say this as an end user who knows that it is totally possible to not have the problems you describe!

Now, folks...there are nuggets of info in this response that could provide clues to solving the Cowboy Junkies sibilance mystery on your Omnias...now it is your challenge to put the info to use!

Let's see how good you guys are at tweaking processing!

-C

Good points. Our station plays this track. We have none of the complaints mentioned here. With Omnia being the top selling FM processor out there, that tells me there are plenty of guys who know how to use it, as compared to Goran who only wants to abuse it.

 

[FFoti1]

Anyway, about a year ago I had a preset that was the best compromise that I could make. Just to be sure that this is the best that could be done, I sent my tweaked preset to Frank to see what he could do with it. I must say he was very helpful and he actually improved the preset further reducing the problem. To be fair to him I uploaded the clip processed with that preset. You'll find it handles these types of songs (HF transients) much better than the factory presets.

So yes, I agree it is possible to make a preset on which this song will sound acceptable. The problem is stations here (unlike in USA) are not formatted. So, one moment we might be playing Sweet Jane, the other latest remix by Roger Sanchez. The tweaked preset that Frank further tweaked, didn't sound as good on other material as it did with difficult program material. This is where I finally (after two years) gave up on the idea of trying to solve this problem and just decided to live with it. I spent several months making the preset that I have now and finally I can say that I'm happy. I haven't touched my Omnia since summer! The breathing problem is still there, but now I just tolerate it.

But as a user, I never stopped wishing that annoyance would be solved (without too much compromise). I won't be dealing with my Omnia for quite a while so it doesn't matter to me that much any more, but like I said, it's nice to hear Omnia.One doesn't suffer from it...


Regards,
Goran Tomas

Goran,

If you were actually being truly honest with the group, you'd also mention that we worked on that preset over one or two eMail exchanges. You were to get back to me with further info, but you never did. I spent all of, maybe, ten minutes creating that for you. If this was such a 'problem' as you claim, it's odd that you waited a full year to post the topic again.

-Frank Foti

 

[Info-warrior]

It is important to note that Broadcast and Goran Tomas (GT) are using 50 uS pre-emphasis on their processors, while the Omnia.One clip was made using 75 uS pre-emphasis (as noted in the file name).

Info-Warrior... which pre-emphasis are you using on your Ultramod?

Sorry, I thought I included in the settings list. The Ultramod is Using 75uS pre-emphasis.

To Kevin

As for the Compellor, I have a 320A and I used to have it set with the process balance around 10 O'clock. That setting yielded about 2-4dB of compression ontop of the leveling. It worked well with the TX4's built in limiter, but I guess it just tends to fight with the Ultramod too much.

As for bass pullback, the 320A seems to handle bass well. I recently bought a model 300. I'll have to compare the two, though I think the nominal levels are set different than my system and it's a real pain to reset the jumpers in them.

 

[kevtronics]

As for bass pullback, the 320A seems to handle bass well. I recently bought a model 300. I'll have to compare the two, though I think the nominal levels are set different than my system and it's a real pain to reset the jumpers in them.

That was the worst part of the 300 I had. You have to take the whole damn thing apart, including each knob on the front panel, just to get to the input gain level jumpers!

Anyway, I just uploaded two clips from my CRL AM-4S AM Stereo processing system. The AM-4S consists of the SGC-800 Stereo Gain Controller, SEC-800 Spectral Energy Compressor, and SMP-950 AM Stereo Matrix Processor. The SMP-950 was set to NRSC 9.5 kHz bandwidth and NRSC "modified 75 uS" pre-emphasis, and has had my "resistor mod" performed. I fed the SMP-950's output directly into my computer and then applied NRSC de-emphasis using an FFT filter in Cool Edit Pro.

This setup really surprises me with how well it deals with the sibilance on the Cowboy Junkies "Sweet Jane" track, and to me the overall balance and texture of the Lou Rawls track is just perfect. Even with the aggressive processing level and restricted NRSC bandwidth, you can really hear the "open" sound that always characterized CRL's AM processing.

 

[RealityCheckr]

Kevin,

Do your experiments involve modulation and demodulation?

Do you own an accurate mod monitor?

Hard to know how something really sounds without the above.

 

[kevtronics]

Kevin,

Do your experiments involve modulation and demodulation?

Do you own an accurate mod monitor?

Hard to know how something really sounds without the above.

Many of the FM recordings that have been posted are direct from the processor output as well, since this is a "processing clips" thread, not an "airchecks" thread. But if you insist, I have an AM Stereo signal generator and a Denon TU-680NAB tuner I can use.

 

[cgould]

Cornelius,
Of course the xt2 does a lot of clipping,but the limiters have comparators to fire the timing modules,so the compression ratio is surely high.
It is just that the threshold of the comparators sets the average clipping.

As the master agc gets compressed on the sibilance,this causes the drive to the xt2 to run dry somewhat,then you think of intelligent selective frequency agc and such.............. Shocked

Hehe...

The response wasn't what you think it was for...I'm dropping hints to folks as to how to get around a problem ;-)

As for the compression ratio thing, yes, comparators firing into timing networks can produce high compression ratios, and as typical in the Orban products of the time, the ratio starts out low, and gets higher as you drive the thing harder. Most of the sound people hear of the XT-2 is almost entirely from multiband clipping.

I have a chassis in my basement that I have had for years, and hacked at it 9 ways to Sunday. In fact, I have NO IDEA what became of the top and bottom lids to the chassis it was apart so much!



Anyway, the revealing thing to do is to defeat the limiters, and leave the clippers in place.

-C

 

[BROADCAST]

Talking about timing modules,is the 9100a release on the 6 bands faster than the xt2's bands,I would imagine the 9100a must be close.

Disable the limiter and leave the clippers active would be interesting to say the least

Oh while i remember i am looking for a 8200 v1.2 module,please let me know if you can help,i want to compare with the v3 module.

Paul.

 

[gtomas]

Goran will pick on Omnia, but he never complains how orban sucks all detail out of audio.

Again, I'm not picking on Omnia, just pointing out something I don't like, like you've just pointed what you don't like about Orban (in much less detail). I don't complain about what you call sucking the detail out of audio, because it doesn't bother me. I call it handling transients well and most of the time I actually prefer it...

But I can understand how it bothers you and that is fair. We all have different preferences.


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[gtomas]

[If you were actually being truly honest with the group, you'd also mention that we worked on that preset over one or two eMail exchanges. You were to get back to me with further info, but you never did. I spent all of, maybe, ten minutes creating that for you. If this was such a 'problem' as you claim, it's odd that you waited a full year to post the topic again.

Yes, it's true I said I'll get back to you but never did... The thing is I realized after all this tweaking and even even with your help the breathing issue could be resolved, but with a compromise to the overall sound. A compromise that I finally decided wasn't worth it... The tweaking was a solution, but not the true solution I was looking for. In our correspondence I got a feeling you didn't actually think there is something there be fixed, so there was no point in continuing. That doesn't mean you weren't helpful. On the contrary!

I only mention it now because someone mentioned how some processors fall apart on this song and that put it back in the spot for me. I'm leaving that station and the Omnia.6 for some time, so it won't be an issue for me anymore. But if you ever feel there's something there to actually be improved, between the e-mails, posts and clips I think I gave you enough diagnosing and symptoms of the problem, free of charge. I spent waaay too much of my time on this...

If you still feel there's nothing to be improved in that regard and I'm only posting this to pick on Omnia for whatever reason, as a processing enthusiast I'm sorry to hear that. Then again, you maybe right and I just might one of the rare few who are overly sensitive to this "issue"... In anyway, I won't be dealing with Omnia anymore so that solves it for both of us!


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[The F Mister]

Goran, I believe you have also a 8500 or 8400 running on one of the station you work for. Any chance you can post a clip of this? Or anybody else for that matter. Preferably with a factory preset.

And while I'm at it, anybody running a dspx-treme yet? Love to hear what this thing does, I heard it is somewhere in the middle of the omnia and orban sound.