Proof that hearing Hotel California repeatedly will drive you crazy

[michael hagerty]

First I have to say.. I can't take a couple hours off to run an errand and someone else emails me saying they are quitting the board! lol.. ah well.. can't please everyone. One from each side the argument so the score is still even! : )



Always in the spirit of discussion, I agree.



I can appreciate that the pros get tired of explaining the same information to the same people. It can get that way from my position managing the board and trying to explain to people to get along, over and over! So I am with you on that.. Should we create a "professionals only" section?



I think your last paragraph is the one that the enthusiasts should reread. While I do appreciate the enthusiasts, and I'm sure you all do too because they are part of the listeners radio caters to.. I also concede that the constant verbal beating towards programmers will not change anything, not without a collective, vocal mass.

I think it can be hard for some to accept that there is little "heart" or "adventure" in the industry anymore for them, as there seemed to be in the past, and maybe that was all a mirage.. but it's all business, ratings and profits, now. Does that make sense?

First and foremost, I appreciate your willingness to discuss.

The problem I have with a "professionals only" section is that it then excludes the enthusiasts (and there are several) who ask questions, pay attention to the answers and learn from the discussion. Disagreement is part of discussion, but there comes a point where it's like going to a site where someone explains how an internal combustion engine runs only to have some of the posters insist over and over again that cars can run just fine on unicorn tears if only someone would try it.

As for business versus heart: It's always been a business. Every format change of the past 60-plus years has been because someone wasn't making enough money or thought they could make more than they were. We've just developed means of discerning and then responding to the likes and behaviors of the audience advertisers want. The stations of the past revered by many posters today were often derided as cold, calculating, corporate money machines in their time.

 

[stevensonair]

"Every format change of the past 60-plus years has been because someone wasn't making enough money or thought they could make more than they were."

Not necessarily.
Some profitable formats were changed purely because the new owners didn't wish to continue them, for ideological or preferential reasons.

 

[michael hagerty]

"Every format change of the past 60-plus years has been because someone wasn't making enough money or thought they could make more than they were."

Not necessarily.
Some profitable formats were changed purely because the new owners didn't wish to continue them, for ideological or preferential reasons.

Point taken. There were those cases.

 

[BOZ Profit]

that cars can run just fine on unicorn tears if only someone would try it.

I have a working model in my garage... ; )

 

[BOZ Profit]

First and foremost, I appreciate your willingness to discuss.

I have to be careful. While I do have my own "opinions", some based on personal experience, some based on gut, some based on heart and some based on business experience, it serves no purpose for me to voice them. It will always appear that I am taking sides... It has been a long standing rule, since 2006 I think, that the mods do not engage in part of the conversations. I think there is some leeway though, as we are a community.

The problem I have with a "professionals only" section is that it then excludes the enthusiasts (and there are several) who ask questions, pay attention to the answers and learn from the discussion. Disagreement is part of discussion, but there comes a point where it's like going to a site where someone explains how an internal combustion engine runs only to have some of the posters insist over and over again that cars can run just fine on unicorn tears if only someone would try it.

There may be a reason to add a professionals only forum, but would likely be a premium offering and would require some form of vetting.

As for business versus heart: It's always been a business. Every format change of the past 60-plus years has been because someone wasn't making enough money or thought they could make more than they were. We've just developed means of discerning and then responding to the likes and behaviors of the audience advertisers want. The stations of the past revered by many posters today were often derided as cold, calculating, corporate money machines in their time.

My point about having heart, was that some owners while desiring to operate a profitable business, were keen to super-serve their COL. Would you say that is still true?

 

[davideduardo]

"Every format change of the past 60-plus years has been because someone wasn't making enough money or thought they could make more than they were."

Not necessarily.
Some profitable formats were changed purely because the new owners didn't wish to continue them, for ideological or preferential reasons.

The anecdote I posted a little while ago one of the first poster's situations, I had the highest rated, highest billing and most profitable FM in a major market. But I saw no growth potential and believed I had found a more profitable, higher ratings potential format.

But i have seen stations with profitable formats flip them because a new owner did not like / feel comfortable with the old format. And I have even seen cases where the old format was dropped because the new owner had moral objections to the kind of music played (think AOR in the 70's or Hip-Hop more recently).

I have also seen cases where an owner would keep a less successful format because they did not want to be associated with a better option. In SoCal we all know the ex-owner who hired a hit man. At one point, a certain LA broadcaster approached him about a sale, and he replied "I would never sell to a k--e who wants to program for the sp---s." In other words, the man's prejudices got in the way of good business. Similarly, other less bizarre beliefs can shape what an owner will and won't do with a station.



P.S. My example also shows that "Ma and Pa" stations are not always all they are cracked up to be, particularly when Pa wants to whack Ma. And when Pa thinks that "a night on the town" consists of dressing up in a white sheet .

 

[michael hagerty]

I have to be careful. While I do have my own "opinions", some based on personal experience, some based on gut, some based on heart and some based on business experience, it serves no purpose for me to voice them. It will always appear that I am taking sides... It has been a long standing rule, since 2006 I think, that the mods do not engage in part of the conversations. I think there is some leeway though, as we are a community.



There may be a reason to add a professionals only forum, but would likely be a premium offering and would require some form of vetting.



My point about having heart, was that some owners while desiring to operate a profitable business, were keen to super-serve their COL. Would you say that is still true?

I especially appreciate your willingness to discuss given your role as moderator.

Again, segregation doesn't seem to be the answer to me. Enthusiasts genuinely interested in answers would presumably not have access to a "professionals only" forum.

I guess it would depend on your definition of super-serving. What's your definition?

 

[TheBigA]

Again, segregation doesn't seem to be the answer to me.

I agree. As some know, I've had some knock down/drag outs with established professionals too. Just not on the matter of playlists.

 

[BOZ Profit]

I especially appreciate your willingness to discuss given your role as moderator.

I am generally available.. just need to ask. : )

Again, segregation doesn't seem to be the answer to me. Enthusiasts genuinely interested in answers would presumably not have access to a "professionals only" forum.

Well... due to the fact if I did add it as a premium feature, and enthusiasts may want to support the site as well, I would not necessarily deny them. Being vetted as someone who works or has worked in the industry would get you a "badge" or "title" stating as such...

I guess it would depend on your definition of super-serving. What's your definition?

Is this a trick question? Hmmm. My answer: playing Hotel California on a station in California? <-- see what I did there, I brought it all back on topic! : )

 

[crainbebo]

Getting out of the naysaying for a bit - I didn't know KIBS started streaming. Every time I looked they only had the news stories streamed. There's a lot of small town stations that will ONLY stream high school sports and their noon newscasts. I want to hear the commercials for the local laundromat and mom and pop grocery store darnit! And possibly amazing playlists - if they are NOT satellite fed. Why I listen to KSRW's low quality tunein stream is because I like their mix of gold AC/smooth vocal jazz stuff. I think it's the best AC playlist ever. I have only heard one Maroon 5 song in over a year of listening to KSRW in and out - "Won't Go Home Without You." No "Payphone," no "Love Somebody," no "Moves Like Jagger." No Adele, no Sam Smith, no Bastille's "Pompeii," no Lady Gaga. Not your big-market AC station.

-crainbebo

 

[michael hagerty]

I am generally available.. just need to ask. : )



Well... due to the fact if I did add it as a premium feature, and enthusiasts may want to support the site as well, I would not necessarily deny them. Being vetted as someone who works or has worked in the industry would get you a "badge" or "title" stating as such...



Is this a trick question? Hmmm. My answer: playing Hotel California on a station in California? <-- see what I did there, I brought it all back on topic! : )

Clever!

In my understanding, super-serving has always been about making the station a part of the community. That can be news, weather, traffic, special events...a lot of things. The trouble is, when you're dealing with large metropolises like L.A., it's hard to do. A big event in Pasadena may as well be on the other side of the earth to someone in Long Beach, and vice-versa. If you focus strictly on things that happen within the city limits of Los Angeles, listeners in the other few dozen cities that make up the metro might not care. So, as with music, you're looking for opportunities of commonality...things a listener anywhere in Southern California would likely be interested in.

 

[michael hagerty]

Getting out of the naysaying for a bit - I didn't know KIBS started streaming. Every time I looked they only had the news stories streamed. There's a lot of small town stations that will ONLY stream high school sports and their noon newscasts. I want to hear the commercials for the local laundromat and mom and pop grocery store darnit! And possibly amazing playlists - if they are NOT satellite fed. Why I listen to KSRW's low quality tunein stream is because I like their mix of gold AC/smooth vocal jazz stuff. I think it's the best AC playlist ever. I have only heard one Maroon 5 song in over a year of listening to KSRW in and out - "Won't Go Home Without You." No "Payphone," no "Love Somebody," no "Moves Like Jagger." No Adele, no Sam Smith, no Bastille's "Pompeii," no Lady Gaga. Not your big-market AC station.

-crainbebo

I listened to KIBS' stream a bit last night. It looks like they're only live and local in mornings and afternoons now...on the satellite for the rest of the dayparts. But at least they're 24/7. We used to shut it down at 10 p.m.

I'll have to listen to KSRW. It sounds like a mix I'd enjoy.

UPDATE: No time like the present. I started streaming KSRW. A Michael Franks track I hadn't heard, but that I liked, two minutes of locally-produced spots and then John Lennon's "Mind Games". Thank God for the spot break. How they follow this will be the interesting part.

UPDATE: They followed it with Bobby Blue Bland, John Mayer and about half of a smooth jazz cut that abruptly dropped off for the legal ID and one second of the NBC chimes (either they don't have a clearance to stream the network or my wi-fi cut out).

I'll be back in Bishop in the next few months. I'll have to ask Bennett for a tour. I'm curious as to what sort of automation she's running. Even a laptop can do it without dead air. There's 2-5 seconds of it at the end of every song.

I'm eclectic enough that I'd probably listen to this every day. But it's clear from the presentation or lack thereof that it's just filler to them...something in between (as they say on their own website) the newscasts (which is what Bennett's all about anyway...she's been doing news up there for 40 years).

 

[BOZ Profit]

Clever!

In my understanding, super-serving has always been about making the station a part of the community. That can be news, weather, traffic, special events...a lot of things. The trouble is, when you're dealing with large metropolises like L.A., it's hard to do. A big event in Pasadena may as well be on the other side of the earth to someone in Long Beach, and vice-versa. If you focus strictly on things that happen within the city limits of Los Angeles, listeners in the other few dozen cities that make up the metro might not care. So, as with music, you're looking for opportunities of commonality...things a listener anywhere in Southern California would likely be interested in.

I agree... and do understand the difficulty for an "LA Based" station (or any large to major market) to REALLY super-serve, or even hyper-serve may be a better way of explaining.

My own opinion is that radio is a complex beast and one size does not fit all.

 

[crainbebo]

Michael, your wifi went out. KSRW streams the NBC News Radio (ex-CNN Radio) newscasts on their stream, including the Marketwatch.com update. Some hours they do not have NBC News on the hour, go to the "Sierra Wave 92.5 KSRW Independence" ID and into 5 minutes of local ads.
EDIT: I have heard smooth jazz cuts go for 20-30 seconds before the "You're tuned to KSRW Independence" ID. They gotta get that automation tuned right on NBC News Radio to the second!

-crainbebo

 

[michael hagerty]

Michael, your wifi went out. KSRW streams the NBC News Radio (ex-CNN Radio) newscasts on their stream, including the Marketwatch.com update. Some hours they do not have NBC News on the hour, go to the "Sierra Wave 92.5 KSRW Independence" ID and into 5 minutes of local ads.
EDIT: I have heard smooth jazz cuts go for 20-30 seconds before the "You're tuned to KSRW Independence" ID. They gotta get that automation tuned right on NBC News Radio to the second!

-crainbebo

I'll definitely listen again.

What they're doing is a variation of what many radio stations used to do to get up to the top of the hour for a network join, and that's play an instrumental. But instead of dumping it before it was finished, the practice was to back-time it....start it with the volume all the way down and then fade into it when the record before it ended. The instrumental would then end right at the moment you needed to hit the ID.

We eliminated the need for it at KOLO-AM in Reno by installing a cartridge recorder in the studio. NBC in those days fed 2 identical five-minute newscasts, one at :54, the other at the top of the hour. We'd tape the :54 on a five and a half minute cartridge, which would cue up and be ready for playback at :59:30. We could then hit the news anywhere from 30 seconds early to however late the final record of the hour made us.

I'm very curious now as to the technicals. I'll definitely stop in for a visit when I'm in Bishop next (probably September or October). It occurs to me that KSRW has been around for a long time now (could it be 20 or more years?), first as KDAY...and I'm wondering if this is newer stuff that's simply not meant for broadcast, older stuff doing the best it can, or just one more sign that the music is just filler "in between" the news and presentation doesn't matter.

 

[firepoint525]

This was once, and for many years, a thriving site with pros who gained from each other wisdom and insight into a business that many of us have devoted our lives to (I'm at 43 years and counting). Enthusiasts who were part of it learned and grew. Frankly, the pros have, over the past couple of years, been ganged up on by (some of) the enthusiasts, whose articulate and intelligent input often consists of "You're all wrong. I'll never believe you." Over and over again. For a year at a stretch. Many of the pros simply don't come here anymore. Some of the blame can go to the re-design, some to the shutdown, but a chunk of them headed for the door when it became wearisome dealing with the repetition and willful ignorance while attempting to engage in intelligent discussion.

This is interesting, given that I have been called a "troll" by one of the corporate guys, (who, best as I can tell, has not been on this particular thread) for nothing more than not liking corporate radio. And it has been my experience that nearly every thread on this board has been hijacked by the corporate guys who try to shout down ANYONE who DARES to disagree with them! It has become such a frustrating experience for me that I have considered leaving this board. I have been called an "outlier" by David, and accused of being "negative" by him when I (apparently) failed to acknowledge the "greatness" of some old radio guy in Dallas from over a generation ago. I merely pointed out that the "old radio guy" now has a contemporary counterpart in Memphis who is now trying to outright buy a U.S. Senate seat here in Tennessee, after failing to win even the primary for a House seat in northwest Tennessee four years ago.

I have never been west of San Antonio (and even that was when I was four years old), so I cannot comment specifically about LA radio, and I don't even listen to them online. Why would I listen if they are playing the same old crap that everyone else is? There is the (apparent) misconception here that only Californians are sick of "Hotel California." Let me attest to the fact that that is NOT the case. I have been sick of "Hotel California" for 38 years now, going back to when it was a hit! If those of you in California are hearing it even more than I am, well then, you have my sympathies.

And I am NOT an "Eagles-hater." I happen to have the Long Run album in my own collection, and I still like it. It is just that I don't have much use for the rest of their output. This may owing to the fact that The Long Run came out while I was in high school.

 

[michael hagerty]

Listened a bit more to KSRW and finally got it...it is patterned after the original music mix on The Wave (KTWV) in L.A....which, when it debuted in 1987, mixed smooth jazz with tastier rock acts like Rickie Lee Jones, Paul Simon, Joe Jackson, Sting, Dire Straits, and Van Morrison. They had pretty much abandoned that approach by 1990, but KSRW (the Sierra Wave...I get it now) sounds like what KTWV might have evolved to had it stayed with that sort of original blend.

Personally, it's right up my alley. The presentation isn't as good as the music, though, and I'd be fascinated to know how many listeners they have, when and for how long.

 

[davideduardo]

This is interesting, given that I have been called a "troll" by one of the corporate guys, (who, best as I can tell, has not been on this particular thread) for nothing more than not liking corporate radio. And it has been my experience that nearly every thread on this board has been hijacked by the corporate guys who try to shout down ANYONE who DARES to disagree with them! It has become such a frustrating experience for me that I have considered leaving this board. I have been called an "outlier" by David, and accused of being "negative" by him when I (apparently) failed to acknowledge the "greatness" of some old radio guy in Dallas from over a generation ago. I merely pointed out that the "old radio guy" now has a contemporary counterpart in Memphis who is now trying to outright buy a U.S. Senate seat here in Tennessee, after failing to win even the primary for a House seat in northwest Tennessee four years ago.

You have posted what may be the most concise anecdotal illustration of the "continental divide" between a small listener group and those of us with radio programming and management experience. I think it is worth dissecting to show how there is very little probability of agreement and to explain my perspective on the "why" of that difference.

"Thread Hijacking". When the passionate listener group we are examining is not satisfied with responses based on actual people's actual career experience, they take those responses as "corporate" or "suit talk" because they can't believe that everyone does not want the same things on the radio as they do. In fact, the threads are not being hijacked and responses that shed light on reality are from people doing you (in the collective sense) the courtesy of explaining how the sausage is made.

"Outlier". When well in excess of 90% of listeners don't complain about playlist length and programming even in format specific perceptual research, we consider those in the small group that does complain or reject to be outliers and outside our ability to serve while still doing what the 90% want. So we regard those people as dangerous, and take steps to keep their views from contaminating our research and destroying our stations.

"Some old guy in Texas". When any of us use anecdotal examples, whether they be personal experiences or part of the bigger history of radio, we do it to illustrate a point as well as to inform those who may not understand where current program practices came from. In the case of the "old guy" we are talking about the mastermind behind much of the development of Top 40 including elements of formatics that have been used for the last 60 years and continue to be used today. Rejection of history is a poor and sad way of "turning off" facts that negate a small group of listeners' programming analysis. And they guy from Memphis was not a pioneer in any kind of radio... so the comparison was off base and can only be described as obfuscation.

Just as you say that you don't "hate" the band called "The Eagles", radio does not hate those listeners with divergent tastes. We just regard them as potholes in the road that we have to carefully drive our stations around so as not to break our transmission (pun intentional).

 

[crainbebo]

Glad you like it Michael! I stumbled across the stream over a year ago and found a song playing by the country band Poco when I turned it on. Think it was "Crazy Love" which hit #1 on the AC charts in 1979. Lots of Michael Franks, Paul McCartney, a zillion covers of "Ain't No Sunshine" - including one by Michael Bolton I heard and one by an African-American duo which I couldn't ID. They changed the lyrics a little bit and made it "ain't no sunshine when you're gone" - not "when she's gone" like Bill Withers did at first. Album cuts from James Taylor (have heard "Line Em Up" from 1997 - seriously, which radio station other than KSRW would think of airing that song!) and rare Sting, as well as smooth jazz cuts - I have heard Lee Ritenour, some Paul Taylor, some rarer SJ acts.
The morning show however, with Bob Todd, is a mix of mainly "oh wow" oldies from the 60s-80s. A few "burnt-to-a-crisp" ones but have NOT heard "Hotel California" on KSRW...shh don't tell Bennett. And don't forget all of those "10:20 Trivia" promos they air all day and all night.
KSRW might be called an "NAC" New Adult Contemporary - the really old name of Smooth Jazz. I call it "Gold AC/Smooth Jazz" with all of the rare soft rock, singer-songwriter stuff and jazz cuts, including smooth vocals at times.
Tell Bennett to update that darn stream! I am not a fan of 16kbps mono streams (WIMI "The Storm" in Ironwood, MI on 99.7, another GREAT station with rare adult hits stuff and some soft rock/hot AC, is the same thing.) Why not make the stream stereo?

-crainbebo

 

[michael hagerty]

Glad you like it Michael! I stumbled across the stream over a year ago and found a song playing by the country band Poco when I turned it on. Think it was "Crazy Love" which hit #1 on the AC charts in 1979. Lots of Michael Franks, Paul McCartney, a zillion covers of "Ain't No Sunshine" - including one by Michael Bolton I heard and one by an African-American duo which I couldn't ID. They changed the lyrics a little bit and made it "ain't no sunshine when you're gone" - not "when she's gone" like Bill Withers did at first. Album cuts from James Taylor (have heard "Line Em Up" from 1997 - seriously, which radio station other than KSRW would think of airing that song!) and rare Sting, as well as smooth jazz cuts - I have heard Lee Ritenour, some Paul Taylor, some rarer SJ acts.
The morning show however, with Bob Todd, is a mix of mainly "oh wow" oldies from the 60s-80s. A few "burnt-to-a-crisp" ones but have NOT heard "Hotel California" on KSRW...shh don't tell Bennett. And don't forget all of those "10:20 Trivia" promos they air all day and all night.
KSRW might be called an "NAC" New Adult Contemporary - the really old name of Smooth Jazz. I call it "Gold AC/Smooth Jazz" with all of the rare soft rock, singer-songwriter stuff and jazz cuts, including smooth vocals at times.
Tell Bennett to update that darn stream! I am not a fan of 16kbps mono streams (WIMI "The Storm" in Ironwood, MI on 99.7, another GREAT station with rare adult hits stuff and some soft rock/hot AC, is the same thing.) Why not make the stream stereo?

-crainbebo

I'll absolutely mention the stream to her. I just got a news release today announcing the completion of "Digital 395", which strings 624 miles of fiber from Carson City, Nevada to Barstow, California, giving that area high-speed broadband for the first time ever. Could be she's been waiting for that.

I'm very curious about the set-up at KSRW. If Bob is the only live jock and he's playing different music from the rest of the day, I wonder if that's a choice (the belief that oldies might be more accessible for a larger audience in mornings) or a necessity (is it possible the live studio doesn't have an interface with automation?). Looking at Scott Fybush's visit to Bishop from 2 and a half years ago provides few clues, other than that KSRW's been on the air for 18 years now. It doesn't look like he was inside the building.

It's entirely possible they're running on original equipment (don't laugh...I recognize a few pieces of gear in the photos of KIBS/KBOV from my time at those stations, and that was 40 years ago), in which case there's only so much they can do.