M
Mid West Clubber
Guest
I dont live in Chicago, but I heard Q 101 was taken off air,, and is now a Internet Only station.... If this is true,, what will you guys do for alternative rock.
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Alternative Rock's audience has left commercial radio*, and the "demo" is not a big target for advertisers. I guess too many are having trouble finding a job that will allow repayment of student loans and still have money left after paying rent, food, cat payment and insurance, etc.
* IMHO this demo is more into using their IPod's loaded with "free" illegal payloads.
* IMHO this demo is more into using their IPod's loaded with "free" illegal payloads.
secondchoice said:
I'm slightly offended by that outdated mindset and negative generalization. As a member of that demo and a P1 Alternative listener, I've paid for almost all of the downloads I've gotten -- and those I haven't, it's because I've gotten them off music blogs offering them for free, which has spurred me to buy more material by the bands whose free MP3s I've downloaded. Studies have shown that I'm not alone in that behavior.
One big reason advertisers don't like the 18-34 demo for Alternative (and Active Rock, for that matter) is because the demo partially targets listeners under 21, and alcohol companies don't want to buy on a station where they could potentially get into trouble for pandering to underage listeners. When Alt stations refocus to target 25-54 (or some other variant that starts at 25 years old), the doors open to a good chunk of cash from alcohol ad buys. Yes, the economy has something to do with it, but I could easily argue that other formats targeting listeners in their 30s, 40s or 50s are also suffering because their listeners are also out of work, can't afford health insurance because of increased premiums, underwater on their mortgages, trying to feed their families and put their kids through school.
RockTheGlobe said:
I use to be in and still have a lot of friends in the recording industry. I grew up need Nashville in the late 1960's and early 1970's and "filled in" for a friend at what is now a major studio. I had union card and could play the drums a little. You and your friends should be applauded. Pleases show a reliable source that over 90%* of the total music downloads are paid for.
* Pirating music has been around for decades. Cassettes were really big pirate issue. Some of the major labels use to figure a 10% loss.
secondchoice said:
Congrats on your background and friendships, I'm sure it makes all the difference.
I see no need to qualify for your arbitrarily set 90%, but proof you asked for that people pay for downloads and that my generation is not a bunch of lazy music-stealers, so proof you shall get -- here's a small slice:
http://www.zeropaid.com/news/9086/canadian_govt_study_p2p_increases_cd_sales/
http://www.emory.edu/BUSINESS/p2p/P2PHarvard.pdf
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/apr/21/study-finds-pirates-buy-more-music
That's not to say that downloading isn't hurting the industry's bottom line in other ways -- instead of having to buy a $12-15 (or sometimes higher-priced) CD to get 1 or 2 songs, people can just spend a buck or two to get the tracks they want and avoid the album filler. If a record label suddenly loses revenue from sales on an entire CD in exchange for the slice they get from a song or two, of course they're going to take a hit to their bottom line, especially when this happens on a massive scale. And that's on the legal download side.
If you read the "Emory" link, second page Felix Oberholzer-Gee states only 45% of the downloads come from computers in the US. Something like 100 countries supply files to the U.S. file-sharing community, and many have not protected copyrighted materials in the past. So who can trust them?
Stealing is stealing. Whether it is "legal" (Some CEO's salaries and bloated "golden parachutes" severance: when a CEO runs the company in the ground). Or someone takes your work (song writers, recording artists, etc.) with out paying for it. The only difference is instead of a gun the crime is committed with a key board.
BTW Zeropaid.com is "hiding their registration" from the public using godaddy.com
The Guardian is not a US based publication. It is .UK (England).
Stealing is stealing. Whether it is "legal" (Some CEO's salaries and bloated "golden parachutes" severance: when a CEO runs the company in the ground). Or someone takes your work (song writers, recording artists, etc.) with out paying for it. The only difference is instead of a gun the crime is committed with a key board.
BTW Zeropaid.com is "hiding their registration" from the public using godaddy.com
The Guardian is not a US based publication. It is .UK (England).
So now you're shrinking your "allowed rebuttals" because proof was given that your blanket statement isn't true? You asked for proof, I gave it. Regardless of where it came from or the scope of its information, studies have shown that even illegal downloads help generate paid downloads, contradicting your unfounded generalization. End of story.
RockTheGlobe said:
I am sorry I just read the whole story and the author states the foreign servers are not in strong copy write counties.
Here is a blanket statement. Stealing is stealing whether you us a gun of a keyboard. Is this an unfounded generalization? I am sorry if you feel this is wrong. I will agree the record industry is and was "slow" in adopting to the internet. There is a good argument about the revenue split from the artists and the record companies.
Back to the real subject of this tread:
A failing commercial format.
secondchoice said:
I don't disagree with that. What I disagreed with your unfounded (and insulting) opinion that most of the people in Alternative radio's demo primarily steal music.
As far as the format failing -- it's failing in some places, not in others. Yes, many cities have lost their Alt outlets, but it's still going strong in markets like San Diego, Los Angeles, Denver, Salt Lake City, Houston and Philadelphia, to name a few.
I am sorry I insulted and made a generalizing statement about a demo. 99X lost it's "C" signal here in Atlanta.* The demo would not $upport it.
I worked in a 5 "cubical" office and 99X was on Wednesdays. I actually liked it. IIRC towards the end all that were on the station was beer, wine and nightclub ads. Funny thing the same beer commercials were back on the radio on sports radio Fridays!
*99X is on a translator now.
I worked in a 5 "cubical" office and 99X was on Wednesdays. I actually liked it. IIRC towards the end all that were on the station was beer, wine and nightclub ads. Funny thing the same beer commercials were back on the radio on sports radio Fridays!
*99X is on a translator now.
J
Jersey Maiden
Guest
I'll also add one more article: http://hothardware.com/News/Swiss-Government-Opts-to-Keep-Piracy-Legal-for-Personal-Use/
I didn't find one comment denouncing the Swiss government's policy. Many of the commenters also say they use piracy to "try out" things. And with the quality of music generally going down the past decade, that's not surprising. Some also purposely download from artists with image issues (such as R Kelly). I can't justify giving my money to a pedophile but I still like his music. And I'll bet that many in the 18-34 demo have watched their parents pirate rented movies via VCR.
Speaking of that demo, hip hop, like alternative, is primarily aimed at the younger crowd but is going much stronger. And that's with the overall quality of rap going down over the past decade while rock generally didn't lose it (but that's an entire different topic). And a more important question: how does Philly maintain two rock stations when it has a smaller population than New York and Chicago?
I didn't find one comment denouncing the Swiss government's policy. Many of the commenters also say they use piracy to "try out" things. And with the quality of music generally going down the past decade, that's not surprising. Some also purposely download from artists with image issues (such as R Kelly). I can't justify giving my money to a pedophile but I still like his music. And I'll bet that many in the 18-34 demo have watched their parents pirate rented movies via VCR.
Speaking of that demo, hip hop, like alternative, is primarily aimed at the younger crowd but is going much stronger. And that's with the overall quality of rap going down over the past decade while rock generally didn't lose it (but that's an entire different topic). And a more important question: how does Philly maintain two rock stations when it has a smaller population than New York and Chicago?
The general public usually never gets the "money demos" which have a lot more to do with programming than 6+, but the short answer is to the lack of Rock, Country, or whatever format is lacking in a market is advertising money.
I do not have the data handy, but the average age and racial make up have a lot to do with formats in various cities. For example Pittsburgh has no Urban on a "market covering" signal. Atlanta has a large black middle and upper class that supports 2 Urban AC'c, a class A Urban Gospel (WPZE) is almost always in the top 5 (6+) and Urban WVEE is usually #1 6+ (nobody can really explain what happened in Nov. but that is another thread). Pittsburgh has a Rock (former AOR) that is a top 3 (6+) station (WDVE).
I do not have the data handy, but the average age and racial make up have a lot to do with formats in various cities. For example Pittsburgh has no Urban on a "market covering" signal. Atlanta has a large black middle and upper class that supports 2 Urban AC'c, a class A Urban Gospel (WPZE) is almost always in the top 5 (6+) and Urban WVEE is usually #1 6+ (nobody can really explain what happened in Nov. but that is another thread). Pittsburgh has a Rock (former AOR) that is a top 3 (6+) station (WDVE).
rkchgo said:secondchoice said:
I guess they're going to get their cats repossessed.
(Sorry, had to!)
Sometimes my fingers are faster than my brain!
RockTheGlobe said:
Two cities have lost their Alt outlets, both as part of a News/Talk package deal
Saying Alternative as a format is "failing" is like saying Urban as a format is "failing"
atlantaboy said:
Q101/Chicago and WRXP/New York were only part of the overall picture and happened as a result of this Merlin deal. WPBZ (Buzz 103.1)/West Palm Beach, which was riding the line between Alternative and Active Rock, just flipped to Top 40. Two months ago, KVGS/Las Vegas became "Bob FM." In August, WKRK (Radio 92.3)/Cleveland went Sports. Earlier this year, KHPT (106.9 The Point)/Houston flipped to a simulcast of a Classic Rock station in its cluster. KSJO (Channel 92.3)/San Jose became Chinese-language in March. And that's just a handful off the top of my head from this year, without mentioning previous format losses like WBCN/Boston or WMFS/Memphis.
RockTheGlobe said:
Abunch of those are a result of new format additions though - Boston and Las Vegas still have two Alternative stations in their market, and Houston and San Francisco still have one Alternative station left
atlantaboy said:
Radio 92.9 is not that old and doesn't have the heritage in Boston that WBCN had -- and no offense against my alma mater, but WFNX is on a bad signal and barely gets a 1-share. Vegas only has 1 Alt station in the market.
I wouldn't exactly call most of those flips "new format additions." KVGS was in the format for 6-7 years, WPBZ was in the format for 16 years, WKRK was in the format for a decade (with a short detour into "Free FM" territory), and KSJO was a format rebirth from KCNL (which had the format on it for 6-7 years before it was flipped, then reborn, then moved to 92.3). And Live 105's signal barely covers the South Bay, which is why Channel covered the area as a San Jose station.
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