Radio Equalizer: More Accurate Ratings "Crush" KGO

[DavidKaye]

I'm not familiar with Maloney, but since he refers to Citadel's "overtly leftist management" and implies they are intentionally neglecting conservative talker KSFO - I'm guessing that Brian is not a liberal.

I never take bloggers seriously because a blogger is not subject to fact-checking or the kind of oversight that is present in newspapers and magazines. "Overtly leftist management" is a perfect example of this lack of fact-checking. I can't think of any time when KGO management has supported, oh, say, communism. I haven't heard any ads on KGO for the Worker's World or other leftist newspapers. I have not heard KGO used as a leftist organizing tool.

 

[DavidKaye]

KGO is #11 in 12+ cume in the July meter. KOIT is #1 12+, knocking on the door of a million and a half. KGO has less than 700,000.

Maybe this proves that oldies is a viable format. Don't look now, but KOIT is largely an oldies station.

 

[DavidKaye]

And that #1 thing has always been based on the 12+ numbers. You all knew that. I've seen it here a number of times. But what do you do? Change everything and blow off what you have hoping to attract younger Demo?

Simulcast on one or two FMs. This is what KGO could have done when they still owned 103.7. They could have let it ride as a simulcast or a time-shift until it got good enough numbers to be viable. Today, they have to seriously start looking at getting KGO onto Sirius and getting at least one FM station. Some FMs are suffering right now. Heck, if the budget isn't there, get a marginal signal or a rimshot such as 104.9 until the audience comes on board then buy a larger station.

When I see that KNGY was bought for $3 million and a dozen baseballs, I think, heck, Citadel or ABC could have bought that station. Sure, it doesn't cover the market, but it would have been a great start, covering 2 of the 3 major population centers. It could have been a contender.

Citadel had a chance to get involved in the Bonneville/Entercom station swap some months back. Citadel has several stations Bonneville likely wanted.

 

[LKellerIII]

And that #1 thing has always been based on the 12+ numbers. You all knew that. I've seen it here a number of times. But what do you do? Change everything and blow off what you have hoping to attract younger Demo?

Simulcast on one or two FMs. This is what KGO could have done when they still owned 103.7. They could have let it ride as a simulcast or a time-shift until it got good enough numbers to be viable.

20/20 hindsight, unfortunately. Corporations often don't think long-term, just go for the CA$H. Except for a few years of success for KSFX in its soul/disco period, 103.7 never paid off for ABC. I believe it was Capital Cities who owned ABC in those days (early 80s), and they always considered the bottom line first, last, and always. Whatever company put in KLOK-FM probably offered them a good sized check.

Remember RKO General sold KFRC-FM 106.1 in the late 70s because nobody was listening. But 610 AM was bringing in big bucks, and they decided there was no future in FM. It took about 8 more years for the FM Top 40s (including KMEL) to put KFRC six feet under.

For some reason, this didn't happen in LA. If KABC wants an FM in the future, they can flip KLOS. RKO never sold KRTH 101. Probably the difference was - KLOS and KRTH were making good revenue in the 80s.

 

[SFStatic]

You also have the issue of FM coverage in the Bay Area, which is unique, to say the least. If it was flat, and there was no bay, high power FMs probably would have dominated years before they did...but of course, it's not like that here--thankfully!

 

[Talking Furniture]

And that #1 thing has always been based on the 12+ numbers. You all knew that. I've seen it here a number of times. But what do you do? Change everything and blow off what you have hoping to attract younger Demo?

Simulcast on one or two FMs. This is what KGO could have done when they still owned 103.7. They could have let it ride as a simulcast or a time-shift until it got good enough numbers to be viable. Today, they have to seriously start looking at getting KGO onto Sirius and getting at least one FM station. Some FMs are suffering right now. Heck, if the budget isn't there, get a marginal signal or a rimshot such as 104.9 until the audience comes on board then buy a larger station.

When I see that KNGY was bought for $3 million and a dozen baseballs, I think, heck, Citadel or ABC could have bought that station. Sure, it doesn't cover the market, but it would have been a great start, covering 2 of the 3 major population centers. It could have been a contender.

Citadel had a chance to get involved in the Bonneville/Entercom station swap some months back. Citadel has several stations Bonneville likely wanted.

Better check your facts on this one. I think the price was more like 30 million. And, today the station might be worth 12-15 million.

 

[pbf1]

Better check your facts on this one. I think the price was more like 30 million.

$33.64 million, to be exact (Broadcasting, 11/1/04).

 

[gameon]

And that #1 thing has always been based on the 12+ numbers. You all knew that. I've seen it here a number of times. But what do you do? Change everything and blow off what you have hoping to attract younger Demo?

Simulcast on one or two FMs. This is what KGO could have done when they still owned 103.7. They could have let it ride as a simulcast or a time-shift until it got good enough numbers to be viable. Today, they have to seriously start looking at getting KGO onto Sirius and getting at least one FM station. Some FMs are suffering right now. Heck, if the budget isn't there, get a marginal signal or a rimshot such as 104.9 until the audience comes on board then buy a larger station.

When I see that KNGY was bought for $3 million and a dozen baseballs, I think, heck, Citadel or ABC could have bought that station. Sure, it doesn't cover the market, but it would have been a great start, covering 2 of the 3 major population centers. It could have been a contender.

Citadel had a chance to get involved in the Bonneville/Entercom station swap some months back. Citadel has several stations Bonneville likely wanted.




never mind

 

[SFStatic]

It was around 33, and the principal has said about it that he bought a job for life. Don't know about the 12 mil for sure, but there's no doubt to anyone that they're seriously upside down in this property.

 

[RadioStarOne]

"$33.64 million, to be exact (Broadcasting, 11/1/04)."

"A Fool And His Money Will Soon Part Ways."

But it would be nice to have $33.64 Million to spread around and it will be a job for life to make it back.

How long til the owners find anyone to buy it for that much money again?

 

[DavidKaye]

You also have the issue of FM coverage in the Bay Area, which is unique, to say the least.

Of course, if FM coverage was so bad they wouldn't be getting any ratings. And yet, the FMs are all on top. So, KGO-FM wouldn't cover the market entirely. That hasn't stopped KOIT, KSOL, or other stations from getting good ratings, especially KSOL, which prior to its current format was a 7-time loser going all the way back to its start in the 1940s.

KIOI isn't doing that much, maybe Citadel should make them a big offer.

 

[LKellerIII]

You also have the issue of FM coverage in the Bay Area, which is unique, to say the least.

Of course, if FM coverage was so bad they wouldn't be getting any ratings. And yet, the FMs are all on top. So, KGO-FM wouldn't cover the market entirely. That hasn't stopped KOIT, KSOL, or other stations from getting good ratings, especially KSOL, which prior to its current format was a 7-time loser going all the way back to its start in the 1940s.

KIOI isn't doing that much, maybe Citadel should make them a big offer.

According to the "PPM Winners" thread next door, KIOI is looking a lot better lately, coming in second among "adults.". In fact, that makes it Clear Channel's top performing station in the SF market. We'll see if it holds. The Bone looks good all of a sudden, too - doing a little better than sister station KFOG.

Also, David, going to your point about KOIT being more or less an "Oldies" station: If you're talking about stations that have older music as a significant part of their format (combined Oldies, Classic Hits, Classic Rock, or whatever you want to call it), there are 4 stations in the Top 10 that fit the category - KOIT, KSAN, KFOG, and KISQ.

Top 10, 25-54
KOIT
KIOI
KSAN
KFOG
KQED
KSOL
KNBR
KCBS AM
KMEL
KISQ

 

[gameon]

KIOI isn't doing that much, maybe Citadel should make them a big offer.


[/quote]

Dude--KIOI bills about 17 to 18 mil per year net with a cashflow of about $9 mil---That puts its value in the $100 million range. KGO is probably billing about $26 mil net with a cashflow of about $10 million. Remember, it costs a lot less to run a music station than a talk station. Lets just say, KGO buys an FM like KIOI which would cost about $100 million (at least)---how much more money do you think they are going to make to justify that investment?

If you are a happy KGO advertiser--and they have many of those, are you going to suddenly start paying a 50 to 60% premium because of an FM simulcast?

And where will Citadel get the $100 mil to buy the station in the first place?

 

[gameon]

what we all have to remember is that PPM is not what is killing KGO. The station has some fundamental problems.

Two of its long-time full time talk show hosts (Pete Wilson and Bernie Ward) are gone---both of these departures (tragic and shocking as they were) were unplanned and thus exposed a weak bench.

The remaining talk show lineup is getting a little long in the tooth (Gene, Ronn, and Gil are all pushing or surpassing 60).

The PMD News has been showing signs of a downward spiral long before PPM.

KCBS's "world in 30 minutes" AMD news has consistently crushed KGO's personality driven newscasts in AMD head to head in key demos for quite some time.

The relevance of talk radio is being usurped by the internet---the concept of forming opinions based on radio talk shows is archaic in today's blogging and posting culture. The Bay Area is indisputably at the forefront of this. KGO has only recently figured out how to integrate its on air effectively with its online (Roger Coryell has helped with this extensively)

On the news front--the thoughtful news listener who KGO's personality driven style appealed to, I believe is the first to engage in the blogosphere and get their wealth of news online. The active and passionate former listener to talk radio, is now the person who is the heavyiest user of the myriad of news and blogging sites and cable networks.

The "get the facts now" type of listener who never had patience for the kgo style still probably uses kcbs for "business at 25 and 55" "traffic on the 8's" "sports at 15 and 45", et al.

KGO's slippage in SF portends what will be significant issues for AM talk around the country in the future.

 

[weav]

I think the "thoughtful news listener" demo has also been eaten away by KQED, along with the generational skew away from AM.

Let's see whether the "naked talk" format on KQED has the same technical issue with PPM that it is alleged to have on KGO...

 

[LKellerIII]

I think the "thoughtful news listener" demo has also been eaten away by KQED, along with the generational skew away from AM.

Let's see whether the "naked talk" format on KQED has the same technical issue with PPM that it is alleged to have on KGO...

It's true - "thoughtful news" really grows on you, and it quickly dawns on you how shallow, surface, and repetitive most radio news is. After just a few months of NPR, either local brand of AM news became almost intolerable for me to listen to - partially because of the lack of depth, but also because of the heavy commercial load, and in the case of KGO - because of Ed Baxter. I'll occasionally tune in KCBS for headlines, or traffic, but never KGO during their news blocks.

 

[tripton99]

I admit I am really old school, but what is the advantage that talk radio has on FM?
Is it that younger people (under 50) won't listen to anything on the AM band?
There can't be any advantage to hearing hate-speech or listener ignorance in stereo.
In San Francisco at least, every single attempt at conversational (non-music) radio since my first whack at it 42 years ago has had demographic problems up the wazoo. I don't think those ultra-attractive 25-49s will ever have the patience or the curiosity for talk radio, even if the subjects were Paris Hilton, the draft, the X-games, crystal meth and/or Ron Paul's quest for the presidency.

 

[LKellerIII]

I admit I am really old school, but what is the advantage that talk radio has on FM?
Is it that younger people (under 50) won't listen to anything on the AM band?
There can't be any advantage to hearing hate-speech or listener ignorance in stereo.
In San Francisco at least, every single attempt at conversational (non-music) radio since my first whack at it 42 years ago has had demographic problems up the wazoo. I don't think those ultra-attractive 25-49s will ever have the patience or the curiosity for talk radio, even if the subjects were Paris Hilton, the draft, the X-games, crystal meth and/or Ron Paul's quest for the presidency.

I don't really understand that either - why is it hard for a young person to flip his radio to the AM band? How many young people does it take to screw in a light bulb?

For the young people that do want to listen to talk radio, why would it be better on FM - more fashionable? The people who call are using their telephones - which are not exactly high fidelity. Do I be more likely to listen if the commercials and Ronn Owens were in stereo and had nice separation? Personally, I couldn't care less. I guess Krasny sounds a little better on FM than Owens does on AM...but it's no big deal.

My mother loved talk radio. Growing up, and in my 20s - I despised it. Then I got hooked on KGO in my 30s. By the time I was 45, I was pretty much over it, though I do listen from time to time. Now that I'm over 55, I don't magically want to listen to Talk Radio again.

 

[davideduardo]

I admit I am really old school, but what is the advantage that talk radio has on FM?

A. It sounds bad.
B. People under 45 to 50 grew up on FM and have little habit of listening to FM.
C. Whatever the reason, it's been proved now in dozens of markets that when traditional news talk stations move to FM, the 25-54 numbers go up.

Is it that younger people (under 50) won't listen to anything on the AM band?

Pretty much.

There can't be any advantage to hearing hate-speech or listener ignorance in stereo.

A. Your opinion and irrelevant to why under-55's don't listen to talk on AM.
B. It's the clarity of sound that makes FM attractive much more than the stereo. Most FM listening is not in stereo, in fact.

In San Francisco at least, every single attempt at conversational (non-music) radio since my first whack at it 42 years ago has had demographic problems up the wazoo. I don't think those ultra-attractive 25-49s will ever have the patience or the curiosity for talk radio, even if the subjects were Paris Hilton, the draft, the X-games, crystal meth and/or Ron Paul's quest for the presidency.

It's likely your attitude is why younger people don't listen to you. If you hate and disrespect them, they will ruturn the favor, amply.

 

[davideduardo]

Let's see whether the "naked talk" format on KQED has the same technical issue with PPM that it is alleged to have on KGO...

It's 5rd 25-54, Mon-Sun, and 3rd on weekends. Sounds like it has no technical issues.