Rates for radio spots

[sussusstudio]

A dream is slowly becoming reality... I'm getting asked for a "rate sheet" more and more often, and decided to give the people what they want. Currently, I've been creating an invoice for clients and just agreeing on a price beforehand, getting signatures, making copies and then hitting the studio. Now it seems its time to take off the training wheels and see if I can do this more professionally and possibly even post my rates and services on some kind of internet thingy.

As far as producing radio spots, here's my criteria so far:

:30 Produced Spot (voice over + music)
:60 Produced Spot (voice over + music)

Each additional line (around 15 words)

:30 Spot (voice only)
:60 Spot (voice only)

Sound Effects

Each Additional Station Airing Spot


I've learned quite a few things from lots of you's guys on this board, is there anything I'm missing? Should I charge for a re-read? What if they want to change a spot in a few weeks and I have to store the spot on my hard drive in the meantime?

I've purposefully left out the $ amounts, just wondering if I got the right things to charge for. Its not my aim to sound selfish to my clients, but this can really become ditch digging type of work when I don't set up certain rules.

-Sussusstudio

 

[surfdude]

Do you write copy? Charge 'em.

I'd charge a flat fee for single voice 60s and 30s.
An additional fee for additional voices.

If you're work is very good, don't undercharge.

"Good radio isn't cheap. Cheap radio isn't good."

 

[sussusstudio]

Do you write copy? Charge 'em.

I'd charge a flat fee for single voice 60s and 30s.
An additional fee for additional voices.

If you're work is very good, don't undercharge.

"Good radio isn't cheap. Cheap radio isn't good."


Writing copy... yeah, I do on occasion. I try to get the client to supply as much info as possible, then convert what they got into what they want. Not too often do I have to write un-assisted. Most of my peeps trust what I come up with and give me a good amount of leeway... so long as it doesn't turn into your standard cable tv pawn shop/jewelry store/restaurant type of spot.

Do you get clients who want to voice their own spot that often? Or they have that friend of theirs that they want to give a big break to? I got stuck once with some people who don't do this kind of work often and it turned into a fiasco... What do you think of charging for a voice over other than professional quality (there can be lots of time involved, sometimes).

 

[surfdude]

Charge an hourly "studio & producer" rate. One hour minimum.
Say $75 an hour.

All these fees should be based on the quality of your work and what the
market competition is.

Is your work better than radio station produced? Charge more.

There's no rules here.

 

[TheVoice1963]

Copy writing is the foundation of a good radio ad. Try to prevent client written copy at all costs. Just my 2 cents worth.

Dave

 

[uppendowndadial]

Geez! Give me a call, I'll write your copy for ya. Been doin it for years, and I know how to get results for the clients.
--yeah, blatent self-promotion, but who couldn't use more clients

 

[sussusstudio]

I've heard that there are no stupid questions, but this might be treading that grey area... What makes a spot well written? I've gone to great lengths to try to get my writing caught up with production & vo. Even as far as copying national spots (that some of you out there create), breaking them down, re-arranging them; a technique that Ben Franklin used before he became a newspaper editor.

Writing techniques I really admire are the "if this, then that", "funny (but true)", and "the trap". I dunno if these are the correct names of categories but I'm sure all of us identify with them on some level.

In your opinions, since "Copy writing is the foundation of a good radio ad", what makes good copy writing?

-Sussusstudio

 

[MyCatKnight]

what makes good copy writing?

Thanks for the good topic, questions, & feedback. I have always gained more from drawing on others' experiences before grinding things out on my own. If you're in a radio station, take the best (not necessarlily the most profitable) salespersons & ask them... keeping in mind that some of them are just good at selling, not always knowing what makes great ads. Even better, sit in on the weekly sales meetings, & introduce your "Spec of the Week," an ad for an imaginary client that your salesfolks can show to potential clients. This will not only increase their odds of making the deal, it will also encourage input from them & the clients (as well as get them on your side).

The 2 schools of thought I was raised in need to be combined:
1. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Before the dot-com age, the last thing said in the copy was the phone number. AC & Standards formats: 14 lines = generally 60 seconds worth of copy... maybe you can fit a little more into a Rock or Pop target audience. And this tended to be the 5th or so time the phone number was repeated in the spot.
2. "Theatre of the Mind": Why do stations refer to the "new" DJ or program for months? Listeners are generally more passive than not, so we have to fight their automatic tendency to tune out come spotbreak time. What'll stand out, & keep them listening in driveway for another minute before going inside the house? An old Mercury award winning spot was from some small station that featured a man with a very dry voice, understatedly telling the adavntages of some Nike shoe, with sound effects gradually making his voice sound as if he were far above the atmosphere, exagerrating the jumping capabilities of the shoe (again, with a very dry, "Garfield the cat"-like delivery). Can't tell you exactly why, but I remember this spot over 12 years later. What will draw listeners' attention, & how do we sustain it?

Now, the salespeople may actually sell more spots with clients' voices than something that we production types would find compelling. Be prepared for this also. What better confirmation to "Joe Camera Store Owner," than clients coming into his store & saying "I heard you on the radio." Not everything we do is innovative or exciting to us radio geeks.

Lastly, keep up on the trades, forums, boards, etc. Besides here, I used to peruse Advertising Age at the library. A great source is "Radio and Production" magazine (http://www.rapmag.com).

I'm sure the Emmitts & Jeff Laurences & "real" production guys have more to share... if you're close to someone so talented, it would be good to even volunteer your time to gain from others' experience. Let me know how things go, as I am also considering expanding back into more voicework, production, & copywriting. AFTRA, multiple radio jobs, & wedding gigs still ain't getting the bills paid! :-\

p.s. If you're totally stuck someday, I am willing to help out w/ 1 freebie if I'm available at the time (writing, voicing, producing, or any combination thereof... from my basement studio w/ cable internet, I could e-mail you copy or am audio file in .wav or .mp3). I find the Production community on radio-info.com to be the most, well, productive & encouraging between peers, & it would be a privilege to contribute back.

Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays to all,
8) [email protected]

 

[VODood]

Rule of thumb 150 words = 60sec, depending of course on tempo, VO's read, and other variables.

If a slower speaking person, might be less words. Some people can talk fast, then maybe you get more words. Or perhaps there's a lot of sfx and music changes that require less words and stricter delivery.


What not to put into commercial copy, in no particular order....

Phone number - no one writes it down
Address - again, no one writes it down

If a radio station, never ever write in first person. If a testimonial or freelance gig, that's different.

Never start the spot asking a question. Don't give the listener the chance to say no from the get go. Same for station promos.


Here's a list you'll all enjoy...


INEFFECTIVE COMMERCIAL COPY AND CLICHÉS

by Dan O'Day (Multi-Clio Award Winning writer and Programmer)

Here is a partial listing of useless cliches that never again need be inflicted upon an innocent radio commercial. Remember, if it's in a commercial and it's "useless," it's HARMFUL to the advertising message. Meaning don't put any of these on a copy request form.

"Going on now." (As in, "Going on now at Sears!" Anyone who ever uses that phrase in a radio commercial should be kicked out of radio. And anyone who ever BEGINS a commercial with that phrase - as in, "Going on now at Sears! It's the one-in-a-lifetime semi-annual sale you've been waiting for!" -- should be imprisoned for life.)

"Now is the time...."

"They won't last long."

"Service second to none"

"Savings throughout the store"

"The sale you've been waiting for!" (YOU apparently have no life!)

"It's sale time!"

"It's midsummer madness time!"

"It's midnight madness!"

"It's bargain time!"

"It's inventory time!"

"It's big savings time!"

"It's clearance time!"

"Storewide savings"

"It's happening now!"

"It's happening at....."

"We service what we sell" (Obviously, we point this out in our commercials because with the kind of junk we sell, you'll NEED lots of service!)

"For all of your _____ needs"

"Friendly, knowledgeable staff" (as opposed to ogres?)

"Conveniently located...."

"And, what's more..." (Have you EVER heard a real human being in real life say, "And, what's more?) "Say, honey, what do you say this evening we go out for dinner...AND, WHAT'S MORE, a movie!"

"So hurry on down..."

"For the finest in..."

"It's our people that make the difference!" (That's because our competitors employ robots and androids. We, on the other hand, use only 100% human beings and human being byproducts.)

"Quality service"

"Not to mention" (Um....You just DID!)

"Operators are standing by" (get a life)

"but wait, there's more!" (please!)

"tell them you heard this ad and get a discount" (no way, don't test radio with your crappy offer)

"phone 555 1234" (alpha-numeric phone numbers might work, but otherwise refer 'em to the Yellow Pages)

IN FACT - Phone numbers, and addresses, are ineffective, period. Most people can't write the phone number down, or recall it to do so later. And most listening is done in the car. How can one write it down. Instead of an addresss, give landmarks; "on the corner of State and Main, across from Record Barn."


And don’t use these either:

Be There!
See You There!
Stop on by!
The Tent is Up and Prices Are Down!


And the WORST....

Come on down (also the most overused crutch by jocks at remotes!)

 

[FMDawg]

As long as we're quoting Dan O'Day...

No offense, but he actually does believe it's ok to start a commercial with a question. If they answer no, then maybe you're not selling something they can use.

Ex: A home blood pressure monitoring kit advertisement could start "Do you or someone you love have high Blood Pressure?"

I do suggest going to www.danoday.com and checking out some of his copywriting packages. It'll give you alot of solid information in the shortest amount of time.

Also:
1. Avoid trying to copy big time agency stuff. In general, they don't have a clue about good radio advertising. The radio generally gets handed off to the low man on the totem pole because it's not as high profile as print and tv.

2. Never ever sacrifice a sales message for the sake of creativity. Creativity might impress you, your peers, and even the client, but unless it provides the potential customer with a reason to act, it's worthless.

3. The only good ad is one that gets the client results.

 

[Emmett1057]

I've never agreed with Dan O'Day's sales philosophies. I have never ever heard or written a spot that made me want something that I didn't/wouldn't want anyway. Ever.

In my personal opinion, if the product doesn't sell itself, there's nothing a radio ad can do to fix that. The best thing a radio ad can do, is to sell to people who would buy anyway.

When I do a concert spot, for instance, I'm not thinking of selling tickets to people. I'm thinking that this spot will tell people who is playing, where they are playing, when they are playing and how to get tickets. If someone has an interest in seeing the artist, they will follow the instructions in the spot. If they don't care to see the artist, there's nothing the ad can do to change their mind.

If someone is driving home from work, and they're planning on picking up dinner from McDonalds, but they hear a Wendy's spot, they may change their mind and go to Wendy's...They may think, "Hey, it's been a while since I've had Wendy's...I didn't even think about it. However, if they have no appetite, no commercial is going to motivate them to act.

If I'm shopping for a new car, I will go to the places that advertise. Not because they've motivated me to act, but because I want to act and they've provided me with information that I don't have to look up. Their ads haven't sold me anything, except the name recognition. I've never been driving along and heard a commercial for a dealership and said, "Oh, I have to go buy a new car right now".

In my opinion, commercials cannot "sell". They can "inform" (as in the first example), they can remind, or even sway (like example two), or they can prepare, as in example three.

I believe, in 99.9% of cases, listeners already have the motivation to act. Advertising can only influence HOW they act, it cannot motivate them to act.

In the example of the "High Blood Pressure Monitoring Kit", all that spot would do is inform listeners of another option for them to improve their situation. If the listener is not concerned about high blood pressure, the spot will not do anything to cause them to react. If the listener IS concerned about their blood pressure, they're already in a position where they want to improve their situation, they just need to know how. We tell them.

Those are just my opinions, and there are quite a few instances where I agree completely with Dan O' Day, but this isn't one of them. I agree that cliches are horrible for ads, I agree that phone numbers and addresses are worthless.

I also don't like spots that begin with questions. I think, "Do you or someone you love have high Blood Pressure?" Could be more effective as, "You or someone you love has high blood pressure..." In most cases, this will be a true statement. Pry your way in and force them to believe that you know them, and you know what's best for them. "Do you or someone you love have high Blood Pressure?" Says, "I don't know you."

While I don't believe spots can "sell", I do believe in effective copy, voice and production. And I do believe in spots being more or less effective than others. I think effective copy commands attention and makes the product sound appealing. I think ineffective copy causes listeners to hit the preset button on their radio to change the station, doesn't give enough information or just simply doesn't sound good.

Nonetheless, everyone should read through Dan O' Day's stuff. There is a lot of good info there. Read it...Chew on it...Just don't swallow everything whole. Keep in mind that if there was a "right" way to do this, every spot would sound the same, and there would be no need for copywriters.

Just My thoughts

Emmett

 

[jefflaurence]

Emmett you reall have the chops for this stuff. Very interesting. There is a lot of psycology in advertising, and more in radio because of the lack of pictures to reinforce. However one of the most effective commercials on TV is one that has no pictures. It tells the name of the product, and how to use it..EVERYONE CAN COMPETE THIS PHRASE:

HEAD ON!..APPLY xxxxxxx xx xxx xxxxxxxx!

7 sec, and everyone knows the product name and the instructions..NO client could ask for anything more. So creative brilliance is not a certain homerun for the advertiser. Sometimes simplicity is king. So many uber-creative spots leave me loving the spot but at a loss to remember not only the product, but the type of product, or even if it was meant for me or my age group..(Maybe not knowing that is part of the special "de-selection" process to get me to go away. I'm just a white 25-54 male with money to spend on stuff..you don't want my business right?)

Anyway..The original topic was Rates For Radio Spots. So here's my half-cent worth. Doing this as a primary source of income is a lot different than doing it as a "gravy gig" to make extra money to buy a waverunner with. The notion of a rate card can be a baseball bat in the breadbasket if not used with extreme care and respect for those who ask for it. It has been my experience that clients that ask that question..(What is your rate to do...etc) are evaluating your ability to fall in line with their budget. What if I answer that a 60 radio spot for one metro market is 400.00..and they have a budget of 250.00? Might they go no further with me because I am outside of their projected expense for this project? They might..Let's see..I would lose the spot for 150.00. Many advertisers don't want to even suggest a rate outside of what they can afford because it might "insult" the great voice talent. And that surely would not produce a superoir product..after all you don't want to hire a qualified doctor..and then talk him down on his rate, and expect that he will have the same exhuberance for taking out your appendix.

I always make it abundantly clear that I am open to negotiation. For my involement there IS no rate card set in stone. There are (in my personal world) guidelines, and precidents..but nothing is welded in place price wise. I prefer to approach the topic of payment (even with major national agencies) with an eye toward future work. I will most always do the work at a premium price to have the oppourtunity to debut my work for a new client..and I have enough confidence in the quality to be reasonably comfortable that I will get a second call. In every case I have gotten that return enguagement...and in many cases I have become the primary "go to guy" with agencies because they know they don't have to play that uncomfortable "rate card" game.

My answer is always "My rates are based on your budget..and the run cycle of the spot along with the number of markets it will run in. Just be fair with me, and we'll get this one done..because i'd like to do more work with you."

That one phrase has gotten me TV and Radio spots for many national projects..and I have yet to be disappointed in the outcome in over 25 years.

Please feel free to call some morning to gab about this stuff!

JL
888-780-8542

 

[uppendowndadial]

Jeff
If you dont mind, I may take you up on that offer! I'd love to chat for a few minutes.

 

[jefflaurence]

that would be great..I look forward to it.

 

[sussusstudio]

Holy moly! Thanks for delivering more than I ever expected. Everybody that responded has really exceeded all my advice needs. What a convenient location radio-info.com is. Jeff, is that offer open to me as well? I promise I won't try to pawn off girl scout cookies on you. BTW, would anyone trust boy scout cookies? Just wondering...


Sussusstudio

 

[audioconnell Voice Talent]

I can't recall the thread or the board in which the question of phone numbers and addresses in spots came up.

Worthless, was the argument.

They're in a car, the listener can't write down # and addresses!

Radio is local...there are national programs, there are syndicated programs and on and on (XM, Sirius et al)

When it succeeds best, radio is LOCAL!

So local people know their area, they can picture in their heads (and they can remember) an address or an intersection or a landmark. Listeners have memories.

Phone numbers? Hell, they don't have to write them down, they PROGRAM THEM INTO THEIR CELL PHONES which never leave their hands even when they're driving!

If somebody has a need, they want it filled NOW and radio, because its local and immediate, serves that need by telling people what is out there and how to get it now.

I neither understand nor encourage what I consider to be the really dumb practice of leaving out addresses and phone numbers...they very essence of a local message in a local marketing medium.

 

[Eye]

Numeric addresses are almost worthless in radio spots. I've been living in Dallas for 30 years and don't know where 25160 Central Expressway is. But I do know where the Northwest corner of Central and Park is. And I can relate to and remember a location on Mockingbird across from the old Dr. Pepper plant.

 

[Emmett1057]

Numeric addresses are almost worthless in radio spots. I've been living in Dallas for 30 years and don't know where 25160 Central Expressway is. But I do know where the Northwest corner of Central and Park is. And I can relate to and remember a location on Mockingbird across from the old Dr. Pepper plant.

I agree, numeric addresses serve no purpose. Even in the small town I grew up in, I couldn't place a numeric address. Street corners, yes...But nothing numeric.

As far as phone numbers, I think, for the most part, they're useless. MOST of the time, listeners will not have a need to call an advertiser. You can't test drive a car over the phone, so why should a car dealership give a phone number? A location that every listener can visualize is important for a car dealership, but not a phone number. How about restaurants? When is the last time you called to talk to someone at a restaurant (with the exeption of places that require reservations). Websites always. I think giving a web address is, in most cases, 100% more effective than a phone number.

In those certain cases where a phone number IS important, such as a doctor's office or other business that requires an appointment, then I see no need for an address. If it's someplace that you'll have to call anyway, you can ask for directions while you're on the phone. If you're writing for an advertiser that requires a phone number, that phone number should be a major focal point of the ad, and time should not be wasted on an address.

I also think some of the most effective ads are those that say something along the lines of, "With six area locations. See our ad in [NEWSPAPER] [YELLOW PAGES] [OTHER PUBLICATION]."

If you burn all of the ad time giving 10 digit phone numbers and numeric addresses, you won't leave much room to talk about the advertiser. Especially if you happen to be dealing with a 30 second spot.

Some of the best spots I've done have been 10 seconds long. There's no room to drown the listener with useless information.

 

[robgrayson]

My two bits of advice for copy writing...
1. Eschew Obfuscation
2. Avoid cliches like the plague

One of the legendary over used phrases in commercialdom is the ever popular "just around the corner". Invariably, when I hear a commercial with "just around the corner" in it, it is running weeks past what sould have been its end date. For example, last Christmas Eve I heard a spot telling me, "You know, the holidays are just around the corner..."

 

[BenTehelenbach]

We've digressed from the original topic, Rates for Radio spots, so let me join in on the digression.

I hear a lot of agency-produced and/or written copy, usually for employment recruiters, that use numerical addresses. I call it "printthink," because these agencies usually deal with print and consider radio a bastard stepchild as far as advertising is concerned. For them, writing for the ear is no different than writing for the eye. That's why you'll hear things like "...bring your resumes to tthe Columbus Room inside The Marriot Inn, located at 8973 South Broadway, Springfield, Wednesday, February 7th 2007, between 1 pm and 8 pm..." instead of "...bring your resume to The Marriot Inn, just off I-550 at Broadway, this Wednesday between one and eight pm..."

Roy Williams (The Wizard of Ads, not the Tar Heels coach) has often said the ear responds to advertising more effectively than the eye, if you know how to talk to it.

One more thing: The word "Located," as in the first example above, is three syllables that are always unnecessary in radio advertising (as well as outdoor advertising).