REC Collecting Part 15 AM Station Data

[DudeFan]

Re: What?

> ***You wish you could have some of what I am smoking? You
> sir, are an ignorant jackasss.

> Village Radio of Montclair, NJ is one part 15 AM station
> that over the years has made some money with a local format.
> Radio Omega of Lebanon, PA is the most successful such
> station in recent years. My friend Doug, took the profits
> from that station and built a new LPFM. Chris DiPaola, the
> owner of WCTD AM 1620 in Westerly, RI took the proceeds of
> his part 15 station and built a 100 watt non commercial. At
> its peak that station's gross revenue was 35k. Talk to
> Keith Hamilton and he'll tell you that numerous customers
> have bought one or more transmitters to cover an area and
> are using them to turn a profit.
>
> You said you can't make money with 1 mile or less of
> coverage. Well, I just outlined 3 SPECIFIC cases where it
> has been done. And since I know these people personally and
> I am familiar with their successes, I know it can be done.

You've stated 3 supposed cases out of how many Part 15 AM users? I notice you don't add yourself to the list. If these folks did make money, good for them, but 35k total yearly gross revenue is a joke. Even a small market FM can pull in at least 35k a MONTH at 5-10 buck a holler spots. That's with a 1.5 share and a less than full-market signal.


> A single Rangemaster located in some urban areas with a
> dense population will be able to reach tens of thousands of
> potential listeners. I did studies of certain neighborhoods
> and suburbs of Cincinnati and determined that one
> transmitter with a mile radius could reach more than 20,000
> people in several places? That is more potential listeners
> than many licensed full power stations can reach in remote
> rural areas.

20,000 is peanuts, when you potentially only would be listened to by 10% of that 2,000. And a 10-share is generous.


> You need to educate yourself before you make any more
> assinine statements like you have. It only serves to
> distort the true picture of part 15 AM broadcasting.

The picture I have gotten of Part 15 broadcasting from this board is mostly negative. I have read a lot of posts from gentlemen that have moved from place to place about the country looking for the "perfect" Part 15 broadcast location because they have been allegedly ostracized and oppressed where they were prior. I have read posts from folks that have stated that they believe "the man," whether thats the FCC, the NAB, NPR, BMI or the boogey man are out to get them and their Mr. Microphone. All of this raises very serious concerns in my mind and further emphasizes the need for a licenses Low Power AM service that actually has the potential to reach more than a handful of persons and is overseen by a process that would weed unfit applicants out. Attacking Rich Eyre -- who is only trying to help assure that you can continue to broadcast to your dog in the living room -- does not help your fellow Part 15 enthusiasts at all.

> Do you work for the NAB or NPR?

No.

 

[WCWalker]

Re: What?

***I don't include myself in the list because I have yet to fully establish such an operation. I am still working towards that goal but over the last year I unfortunately lost about 20 grand at my previous home thanks to unscrupulous contractors that did shoddy work on my property. What I am doing at this point is irrelevant to the conversation.

I cited three specific examples of successful commercial part 15 AM station operation that I am familiar with. I know of others as well but I am not about to divulge them here because BMI is quite likely, lurking on this board. Two of the afformentioned stations are already paying BMI for their LPFM and in the case of Village Radio, he's run's a recording studio and voluntarily pays both BMI and ASCAP and has done so for years.

Perhaps $35,000 a year is peanuts to you but it is not for everyone. You can live quite well on such an income in many parts of the country. Now, if everyone was an elitist, arrogant dork like you, then of course they would set far loftier and quite probably, unatainable goals for their part 15 stations. Not everyone has the money to start up a Class A FM in order to pull in that higher revenue. My Cousin's wife is a Salesman for a FM station in a mid sized New England market and she herself alone, sells nearly One million a year in advertising.

20,000 people within a listening radius is not peanuts. And where do you cull this "only 10% of those people or 2,000 of those will be potential listeners" from? That figure will vary greatly from market to market. In a metro area that has higher AM listenership you are likely to have more potential listeners with the right format. In a market that is smaller or has less people tuned into the radio yes, you probably will have less listeners. Regardless, there are a great many businesses that would love to reach 2,000 potential customers within a mile radius if they only need to spend a "dollar a hollar" for advertising.

I have a friend from high school that owns a shopping plaza in my hometown in Connecticut. In that plaza he owns a restaurant. A few years ago he told me he spent several thousand dollars a month on advertising at Hartford FM stations only to find he could not raise sales. Reason being? The restaurant he was advertising sells Greek and Italian food which to be honest, is a dime a dozen establishment in Connecticut. Why would someone on the other side of the metropolitan area drive 25 miles to eat at his restaurant? 85% of his business resides within a five mile radius and if there had been a local station that served the market he would have had a better shot at attracting new customers or reaching existing one's with advertised specials. Instead he had to rely upon a mere fraction of the total listening audience on a big station to come into our town to eat at his restaurant and it didn't work. They've been in business for 40 years and don't need to advertise anyway but he told me that he could have more effectively reached the right people right near the shop with a local station.

If this board is too negative then please try to contribute something positive. If you don't like it then leave. I've had more than my share of battles with board denizens over the years and at times I do stop posting for lengthy periods of time in order to cool myself off. Those alleged ostracized and oppressed people you talk about are probably reading your message. I've been through it too. It happens and it is very real. In my case, I happened to run into a rogue local government that thought they could push me around. Well, I contacted some friends who got the Fed's on the case and then the problem suddenly stopped. Without going into too much detail about that specific incident I will say the problem with many of these small towns is that they are run by a good ol' boy network and corrupt local officials and cops that feed the system. If you don't play ball with them then they run you out of town. The Editor of the daily newspaper in the town I had a problem in told me this was what they were doing to me. They wanted to control my station and I would not allow it especially since they were asking me to bow to the rules they were making up that actually violated state and Federal laws. I refused to play ball with scum like that and still do to this day.

And one thing is very certain in my mind, you and Rich both don't have enough of a grasp of part 15 AM or even commercial AM broadcasting to make an accurate assessment about what is best for the rest of us. This kind of conceited attitude will only bring you more of the same and I think you would be far better off if you understood that commercial LPAM is far more viable than non commercial LPAM.

Great, I see you are part of a LPFM. You get on the radio and beg people to send you money so that you can indulge in your whim to broadcast to the masses. It's all about stroking your ego and little else. Well, not all of us are that self indulgent. We'd like to earn that revenue and at the same time help our local stores to compete against the big chains.

Those of us that wanted BOTH commercial and non commercial LPFM lost out the first time around to ignorant creeps like you that were unwilling to concede there is a need for both services. I sincerely hope it does not happen again otherwise a lot of LPAM station's will be going broke and fast.


> > ***You wish you could have some of what I am smoking? You
>
> > sir, are an ignorant jackasss.
>
> > Village Radio of Montclair, NJ is one part 15 AM station
> > that over the years has made some money with a local
> format.
> > Radio Omega of Lebanon, PA is the most successful such
> > station in recent years. My friend Doug, took the profits
>
> > from that station and built a new LPFM. Chris DiPaola,
> the
> > owner of WCTD AM 1620 in Westerly, RI took the proceeds of
>
> > his part 15 station and built a 100 watt non commercial.
> At
> > its peak that station's gross revenue was 35k. Talk to
> > Keith Hamilton and he'll tell you that numerous customers
> > have bought one or more transmitters to cover an area and
> > are using them to turn a profit.
> >
> > You said you can't make money with 1 mile or less of
> > coverage. Well, I just outlined 3 SPECIFIC cases where it
>
> > has been done. And since I know these people personally
> and
> > I am familiar with their successes, I know it can be done.
>
>
> You've stated 3 supposed cases out of how many Part 15 AM
> users? I notice you don't add yourself to the list. If these
> folks did make money, good for them, but 35k total yearly
> gross revenue is a joke. Even a small market FM can pull in
> at least 35k a MONTH at 5-10 buck a holler spots. That's
> with a 1.5 share and a less than full-market signal.
>
>
> > A single Rangemaster located in some urban areas with a
> > dense population will be able to reach tens of thousands
> of
> > potential listeners. I did studies of certain
> neighborhoods
> > and suburbs of Cincinnati and determined that one
> > transmitter with a mile radius could reach more than
> 20,000
> > people in several places? That is more potential
> listeners
> > than many licensed full power stations can reach in remote
>
> > rural areas.
>
> 20,000 is peanuts, when you potentially only would be
> listened to by 10% of that 2,000. And a 10-share is
> generous.
>
>
> > You need to educate yourself before you make any more
> > assinine statements like you have. It only serves to
> > distort the true picture of part 15 AM broadcasting.
>
> The picture I have gotten of Part 15 broadcasting from this
> board is mostly negative. I have read a lot of posts from
> gentlemen that have moved from place to place about the
> country looking for the "perfect" Part 15 broadcast location
> because they have been allegedly ostracized and oppressed
> where they were prior. I have read posts from folks that
> have stated that they believe "the man," whether thats the
> FCC, the NAB, NPR, BMI or the boogey man are out to get them
> and their Mr. Microphone. All of this raises very serious
> concerns in my mind and further emphasizes the need for a
> licenses Low Power AM service that actually has the
> potential to reach more than a handful of persons and is
> overseen by a process that would weed unfit applicants out.
> Attacking Rich Eyre -- who is only trying to help assure
> that you can continue to broadcast to your dog in the living
> room -- does not help your fellow Part 15 enthusiasts at
> all.
>
> > Do you work for the NAB or NPR?
>
> No.
>

 

[WCWalker]

P.S.

Dudfan, if you firmly believe 35k a year is chump change for a part 15 station then surely you'd agree that is also the case with LPFM. I have several friends that run LPFM stations and all gross up to around 50k a year. Since 50k is not all that far from 35k surely that too must be chump change.

I'd rather earn 35k gross on a part 15 station than 50k on a LPFM. Why you may ask? Well, the cost to operate one of the LPFM's my friend has said, is about 48k to 50k annually. He's putting every cent back into the station and not making much of a profit. By contrast, a part 15 AM may have an overhead of just a few thousand a year if it is run out of an office and rent is paid. If it is run from home then it could be just a couple grand a year minus any money paid out for sub contractors and/or employees. A part 15 AM with even as little as 10k a year in gross revenue is likely to offer a better return to the owner than most LPFM stations.

And clearly that 1 million a year my Cousin's wife sells annually (one of five sales people at the station) makes your 35k a month at a FM outlet with a 1.5 share look like chump change.

Why don't you tell us ow much gross annual revenue is that LPFM of yours generating?

 

[DudeFan]

Re: P.S.

> Dudfan, if you firmly believe 35k a year is chump change for
> a part 15 station then surely you'd agree that is also the
> case with LPFM. I have several friends that run LPFM
> stations and all gross up to around 50k a year. Since 50k
> is not all that far from 35k surely that too must be chump
> change.

That's an awfully high operational cost figure. It should be much lower than that. WRIR Richmond just pulled 50k in a fall begathon.


> I'd rather earn 35k gross on a part 15 station than 50k on a
> LPFM. Why you may ask? Well, the cost to operate one of
> the LPFM's my friend has said, is about 48k to 50k annually.
> He's putting every cent back into the station and not
> making much of a profit. By contrast, a part 15 AM may have
> an overhead of just a few thousand a year if it is run out
> of an office and rent is paid. If it is run from home then
> it could be just a couple grand a year minus any money paid
> out for sub contractors and/or employees. A part 15 AM with
> even as little as 10k a year in gross revenue is likely to
> offer a better return to the owner than most LPFM stations.

You do miss the point. $10k a year or anything approaching that for a Part 15 is unusual and definitely not typical and not realistic to anyone with a grounding in commercial broadcasting. In the scheme of thinsg while $35k/year is great for a Part 15, it probably cannot be repeated by others and certainly pales into comparison with the potential that full power and LPFM stations have.

> And clearly that 1 million a year my Cousin's wife sells
> annually (one of five sales people at the station) makes
> your 35k a month at a FM outlet with a 1.5 share look like
> chump change.

This example was to state that even


> Why don't you tell us ow much gross annual revenue is that
> LPFM of yours generating?

I'm not sure that is information I would want to make easily and publicly available to competing stations. They don't release their revenues, and I am not going to release ours to you or anyone else.

You are correct. I am part of a LPFM organization. We do well. But even with 65% market coverage, we have challenges in pitching underwriters because of the perceived and actual limitations of the class. With Part 15 levels, it would be futile, whether commercial or otherwise. Any expectations to the contrary are simply unrealistic. Particularly where, in most markets and on average, only 10-2% of the population tunes into any given radio station. Check Arbitron to give yourself an idea of the shares so that you can extrapolate them down to a 2,000 to 20,000 person neighborhood.

Frankly, if I were a Part-15 hobbyist that have serious interest in broadening the reach of a project, then I would be cheering for LPAM service in any form whatsoever instead of shooting holes at it and the folks supporting it.

I know our intention is to apply for a LPAM license as well so that we can expand our service to our community.

 

[WCWalker]

Re: P.S.

***My replies are marked as such *** and interspersed.


> > Dudfan, if you firmly believe 35k a year is chump change
> for
> > a part 15 station then surely you'd agree that is also the
>
> > case with LPFM. I have several friends that run LPFM
> > stations and all gross up to around 50k a year. Since 50k
>
> > is not all that far from 35k surely that too must be chump
>
> > change.
>
> That's an awfully high operational cost figure. It should be
> much lower than that. WRIR Richmond just pulled 50k in a
> fall begathon.

***My point is simple, one size does not fit all. That is the approach you are taking and it is a recipe for failure.

My friend's station is in New England and it ain't a cheap place to live or do business. His rent alone is around $1,000 a month for the office and studio. Also, he's in a city of 20,000 people on the edge of a metro market with 250,000 people.

>
>
> > I'd rather earn 35k gross on a part 15 station than 50k on
> a
> > LPFM. Why you may ask? Well, the cost to operate one of
> > the LPFM's my friend has said, is about 48k to 50k
> annually.
> > He's putting every cent back into the station and not
> > making much of a profit. By contrast, a part 15 AM may
> have
> > an overhead of just a few thousand a year if it is run out
>
> > of an office and rent is paid. If it is run from home
> then
> > it could be just a couple grand a year minus any money
> paid
> > out for sub contractors and/or employees. A part 15 AM
> with
> > even as little as 10k a year in gross revenue is likely
> to
> > offer a better return to the owner than most LPFM
> stations.
>
> You do miss the point. $10k a year or anything approaching
> that for a Part 15 is unusual and definitely not typical and
> not realistic to anyone with a grounding in commercial
> broadcasting. In the scheme of thinsg while $35k/year is
> great for a Part 15, it probably cannot be repeated by
> others and certainly pales into comparison with the
> potential that full power and LPFM stations have.

***No, I don't miss the point. You miss the point.

Earlier you claimed 1 kw AM stations struggle to survive. That is a blanket statement based on speculation and not fact. Last April a friend of mine nearly purchased a 1 kw AM in North Dakota. Asking price was at $150,000 with sales revenue at nearly that level. After I looked at the budget for the year 2003 I determined the cost to run that station could be knocked down to under $100,000 a year which included my proposed GM's salary. Clearly there was enough money to not only cover the station's expenses plus employees salaries but to pay taxes and leave the owner with about 50k a year in profit! I already cited several more 500 watt and 1 kw AM stations that do quite well.

And about five years ago I had an opportunity to inteview for a GM position of a 1 kw station in the Midwest. If I told that station owner what you just said he'd have enjoyed a good laugh!

Your comments concerning commercial Part 15 AM and Licensed LPAM are not based upon fact but fiction. Again, they are blanket statements. One size does not fit all in the real world. You proved this when you claimed "you can't make money with just 1 mile (or less)of coverage". I already gave you three stations that blew your theory right out of the water and I would give you more if it were not for the issue I already outlined.

Your definition of a decent profit compared to others may be different. Don't try to force that on the rest of us especially those that are perfectly happy to make that kind of money as a part time income with their part 15 station. It's negative and just plain WRONG.

>
> > And clearly that 1 million a year my Cousin's wife sells
> > annually (one of five sales people at the station) makes
> > your 35k a month at a FM outlet with a 1.5 share look like
>
> > chump change.
>
> This example was to state that even
>
>
> > Why don't you tell us ow much gross annual revenue is that
>
> > LPFM of yours generating?
>
> I'm not sure that is information I would want to make easily
> and publicly available to competing stations. They don't
> release their revenues, and I am not going to release ours
> to you or anyone else.

***Good. Now you understand why I won't divulge any more information about successful commercial part 15 AM stations. Do some of your own research and maybe you'll discover a few others.


>
> You are correct. I am part of a LPFM organization. We do
> well. But even with 65% market coverage, we have challenges
> in pitching underwriters because of the perceived and actual
> limitations of the class. With Part 15 levels, it would be
> futile, whether commercial or otherwise.

***Perhaps it would be futile to you but not for me. When I was in a small town in Kansas in 2000, I had at least four local businesses willing to buy time on my part 15 AM even though it hadn't hit the air. Unfortunately a lightning strike took out most of my equipment just as I got on the air and set me back for quite a while.


Any expectations to
> the contrary are simply unrealistic. Particularly where, in
> most markets and on average, only 10-2% of the population
> tunes into any given radio station. Check Arbitron to give
> yourself an idea of the shares so that you can extrapolate
> them down to a 2,000 to 20,000 person neighborhood.

***Yes, I've done that. Part of the problem as to why people don't listen to AM anymore in some places is the lousy programming. Not everyone wants to listen to syndicated talk radio or syndicated ANYTHING. They want to hear live or local voices talking about local people and issues plus many just want to hear music.

You can overcome the limited numbers of AM listeners in these markets by providing good programming that is local in nature and through effective marketing to let them know you are out there.

>
> Frankly, if I were a Part-15 hobbyist that have serious
> interest in broadening the reach of a project, then I would
> be cheering for LPAM service in any form whatsoever instead
> of shooting holes at it and the folks supporting it.

***This is just plain ignorance. I don't cheer for a non commercial LPAM of any sort because it will result in financial suicide for ANY small non profit that attempts it. I can't find even ONE successful independent,non commercial AM station anywhere in the country. I do find a very small number like AM 770 in Minneapolis, owned by the Univ. of MN and an NPR station at 970 in Buffalo. They survive because large organizations have the money to keep them afloat.

If I thought for a minute a non commercial LPAM service could succeed then I would support it. This is why I supported BOTH non commercial and commercial LPFM. I'd rather help the independent, entrepreneurs to build their business and compete with the Wal Wart's and McPukes of the world than to play right into the hands of the NAB and NPR by opposing commercial LPAM which allows these big corporations to grow bigger while driving a stake in the heart of the average American business. When you deny small business a chance to compete it results in poorer service and products for us all.

>
> I know our intention is to apply for a LPAM license as well
> so that we can expand our service to our community.

*** You won't be eligible for a station unless your name is not part Board of Directors of the LPFM you are a part of.

If the FCC is foolish enough to approved non commercial LPAM be prepared to pony up a lot of money out of your own pocket (you and the others on the Board of Directors) to keep that station afloat. You won't be getting much in the way of donations.

 

[DudeFan]

Re: P.S.

Our comments will advocate cross-ownership between LPFM and LPAM. Indeed, there is no reason to prohibit same, given the fact that we are now free to own multiple LPFM's once another filing window opens up in the next decade or so. The wealth of experience LPFM will bring to the service would benefit communities everywhere.

If your LPFM friend is spending cash on rent and that sort of thing in a city of 20,000, he's going about it the wrong way. In city of half a million, getting a rent grant was the easiest part of our build-out. Getting free donuts and beer was more difficult than that!

Do you think that non-commercial stations do not make sizeable non-listener revenue? You are very wrong, if that is the case. Most non-commercials (and NPR) have a large underwriting revenue base.

In sum, Part 15 operations are fun hobbyist activities. As the technical posts demonstrate, many persons are enjoying the experimental and techinical learning possibilities that Part 15 devices provide. Part 15 is not broadcasting and is not a mass medium to believe otherwise is not realistic.

If you seriously want to broadcast and serve your community support LPAM no matter whether its commercial or noncommercial. If the FCC see opposition to the service from parties other than established broadcasters, the rulemaking will almost certainly fail. Then you will be left with only Part 15 to play radio to your backyard and the wife in the living room.

One last word WCW: Clozapine.

 

[WCWalker]

Re: P.S.

> Our comments will advocate cross-ownership between LPFM and
> LPAM. Indeed, there is no reason to prohibit same, given the
> fact that we are now free to own multiple LPFM's once
> another filing window opens up in the next decade or so. The
> wealth of experience LPFM will bring to the service would
> benefit communities everywhere.

***Just because you seek cross ownership in a filing does not mean the FCC is going to agree with the idea. It's very unlikely the FCC will allow cross ownership of both LPAM and LPFM stations especially if the service is going to be commercial.


>
> If your LPFM friend is spending cash on rent and that sort
> of thing in a city of 20,000, he's going about it the wrong
> way. In city of half a million, getting a rent grant was the
> easiest part of our build-out. Getting free donuts and beer
> was more difficult than that!

***Not all of us want government handouts. If that works for you then so be it.

Again, you are trying to compare a city of 20,000 people with one of half a million in two different states and regions. You are a Moron.

>
> Do you think that non-commercial stations do not make
> sizeable non-listener revenue? You are very wrong, if that
> is the case. Most non-commercials (and NPR) have a large
> underwriting revenue base.
>
> In sum, Part 15 operations are fun hobbyist activities. As
> the technical posts demonstrate, many persons are enjoying
> the experimental and techinical learning possibilities that
> Part 15 devices provide. Part 15 is not broadcasting and is
> not a mass medium to believe otherwise is not realistic.

***Wrong. Your definition of broadcasting apparently differs than most. Even a Mr. Microphone is a broadcast device albeit a small one. If indeed, these are not broadcast devices then BMI does not have a leg to stand on when calling on these people for money.

>
> If you seriously want to broadcast and serve your community
> support LPAM no matter whether its commercial or
> noncommercial.

***Obviously, you are too ignorant to understand the limitations that go along with the AM broadcast band and how they will negatively impact anyone foolish enough to try a non commercial AM broadcast station.


If the FCC see opposition to the service from
> parties other than established broadcasters, the rulemaking
> will almost certainly fail. Then you will be left with only
> Part 15 to play radio to your backyard and the wife in the
> living room.

***Really? And now you speak for the FCC?

You are the type of snob that will look down on something if it does not meet or exceed your expectations. You remind me of the politicans that look down on certain kinds of businesses who instead play Lady in Waiting for that big corporation to come in and create 1,000 jobs. Well, I have news for you guy, 100 small businesses that each create 10 jobs are every bit as good as the one corporation that brings in 1,000 jobs.

>
> One last word WCW: Clozapine.

***Obviously, you are the one with a mental disorder. You are a little too big for your britches Mr. Big Shot and worse still you have displayed a rare inability to grasp even the basics of what constitutes successful commercial community broadcasting at any level.

Your posts are dripping with utter contempt for anyone that does not see eye to eye with your anti commercial LPAM and Part 15 broadcast stance. You are an elitist that chooses to put down the very people you and your buddy Rich purportedely want to help.

Well, excuse us Mr. College Boy, but you have come in here and displayed a superior attitude by looking down at the rest of us and it has only served to alienate yourself from the people that post on this message board.

You may think you are a bigger person than the rest of the people in here but I have news for you, in all likelyhood you are no higher up on the social registry than anyone else on this board.

 

[rec]

Re: P.S.

> Our comments will advocate cross-ownership between LPFM and
> LPAM. Indeed, there is no reason to prohibit same, given the
> fact that we are now free to own multiple LPFM's once
> another filing window opens up in the next decade or so. The
> wealth of experience LPFM will bring to the service would
> benefit communities everywhere.

Just a clarification on the multiple ownership rules in LPFM. While 73.855(b) allows for multiple ownership of LPFM stations in the next window, 73.855(a) does prohibit more than one station within 12 km (7 miles).

If the LPFM and LPAM ownership rules are combined together and stations are aggregated, then LPFM/LPAM combos in the same community would not be possible.