Reliability of HD --- HD radio's worst enemy

[Savage]

And a couple more things. When the patents for IBOC expire, there will be no stampede to start cranking out open-source HD products because the technology is too flawed. It's a stiff now. It will still be a stiff then.

And from someone who's old enough to have been there: nobody ever said "there is no future in FM." Early adopters back in the 1940s and 1950s who were AM operators had, in some cases, FM licenses which either went unbuilt or which were operated briefly and then shut off. But that had nothing to do with any technical faults with FM. AM was fantastically profitable in that era and nobody had FM receivers; consumer dollars were going into TV and, somewhat later, high-fidelity audio systems and color TV. So FM was shoved aside until receivers got better, simpler and cheaper. That coincided with the FCC's limiting AM-FM simulcasting. As soon as those things happened, FM's rise became meteoric.

 

[TheBigA]

And a couple more things. When the patents for IBOC expire, there will be no stampede to start cranking out open-source HD products because the technology is too flawed. It's a stiff now. It will still be a stiff then.

You never really know for sure. Marconi thought he was inventing a wireless phone. It instead became radio. One thing I've learned is when you let outside developers into a room, you find lots of new ways of looking at a problem. But nothing will change as long as it's proprietary. And as long as the CEA hates radio. This is a battle where two strikes is enough.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

And a couple more things. When the patents for IBOC expire, there will be no stampede to start cranking out open-source HD products because the technology is too flawed. It's a stiff now. It will still be a stiff then.

You never really know for sure. Marconi thought he was inventing a wireless phone. It instead became radio. One thing I've learned is when you let outside developers into a room, you find lots of new ways of looking at a problem. But nothing will change as long as it's proprietary. And as long as the CEA hates radio. This is a battle where two strikes is enough.

I don't know - turn some REAL engineers loose on the problem, I bet they could make the system work. The problem is - products that have flopped for 10 years and cost millions of dollars are tempting to abandon. But if there is a change - here are a couple of changes I'd make:

(1) Dump AM HD in its present form, re-package C-Quam / AMAX and promote it as HD AM radio version 2.

(2) Move the HD sidebands down in frequency to where RDS, background music, and other stuff is located. This would accomplish several things - primarily though it would overcome the gain / bandwidth problem that is making HD reception so bad. Dropping the bandwidth would do much more to add to signal robustness than any paltry power increase on the sidebands. It would address the root cause of the problem and solve it once and for all. HD coverage would be great, interference would disappear, and at least the system would be on a par with FM stereo.

But personally, I think it is too late. What little consumer knowledge exists out there is overwhelmingly negative due to reception issues and lack of compelling programming. Digital versions of existing formats is not going to be compelling enough for consumers to buy all new radios. Compelling programming would be. Maybe - if promoted some other way than "HD radio will help you pick up chicks".

 

[TheBigA]

Maybe - if promoted some other way than "HD radio will help you pick up chicks".

To be honest, that still wouldn't be enough to get me to buy a new radio. Free sex might be another story. But I don't want to be greedy. Consumer knowledge or programming don't matter. Look at satellite radio. The device has to be free and included with something I already want. Otherwise, it won't matter.

 

[iyiyi]

Think about it... You - O radio person - cannot see any potential whatsoever in digital IBOC broadcasting?

... As I've said here many times, the fact that IBOC is proprietary prevents other manufacturers from making improvements in the system, as they might want to do...

Izzat so? Perhaps you can, pray tell, explain what the #### Apple is doing on the tippety-top of the business world -- Einstein?

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[Kent]

Izzat so? Perhaps you can, pray tell, explain what the #### Apple is doing on the tippety-top of the business world -- Einstein?

Simple. Apple may use a proprietary system and have an approval process, but anyone who can pay the $100 fee for a development kit can build apps for it. If there's something you'd like from your iPhone or iPad that it presently doesn't do, you can build it yourself if you spend a nominal sum on the development kit and have a decent knowledge of Objective C, and it will work across all machines running the operating system you used to build your app. Plus, you can charge for it and make money. Ironically, Apple's personal computer business has lagged for years for many of the same reasons HD Radio has never taken off. Apple has opened up its App Store to personal computers in the hope that the availability of new apps will increase sales.

Apple did a few things iBiquity has not, and most of them were the result of the customers' demands. When it came to digital music, Apple noticed people wanted an easy way to get music on their digital players. If you remember some of those original MP3 players, getting music on them could be an absolutely painful process. Apple came up with iTunes, and, while the system is often criticized, it remains the easiest way to get music you don't have onto your player. The result? Apple became the leading seller of digital music (more than 90% of the market share) less than 10 years after entering the business.

Also, the iPhone apps would never have happened had it not been for consumer demand. The original iPhone was little more than a cell phone with an iPod. Unscrupulous users found a way to get around the protection in the software and sell apps on the black market. Apple figured out quickly that it was missing out on a big part of the market. So, it opened up its development kit to users for a small fee, and the App Store took off. Without the App Store, there could never have been an iPad, which, along with other tablet devices, is likely to eliminate the laptop altogether in 5-10 years.

In other words, Apple may have some similarities to iBiquity's proprietary model, but, in more ways, it's the opposite of iBiquity. Unless the patent expires, you're never going to see the same kind of customer driven innovation in HD Radio.

 

[iyiyi]

Sound reasoning, Kent!

Apple is a closely held business where iBiquity is a consortium of interests. Possibly someone just hasn't figured out a way to profitably exploit the potentials of IBOC yet. I am certain that IBOC's versatility will be put to good use soon. There are too many opportunities inherent in IBOC to capitalize on to just dismiss.

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[davideduardo]

Apple is a closely held business where iBiquity is a consortium of interests. Possibly someone just hasn't figured out a way to profitably exploit the potentials of IBOC yet. I am certain that IBOC's versatility will be put to good use soon. There are too many opportunities inherent in IBOC to capitalize on to just dismiss.

Apple is anything but closely held. There are 960 million shares outstanding and publicly traded, and only about 0.05% are owned by "insiders" which is the definition of "closely held."

iBiquity is prinipally owned by several investment banking firms, with minority positions owned by some of the larger group broadcasters. iBiquity is a "by the book" closely held company, as shares are not openly traded.

 

[davideduardo]

Seven million, according to iBiquity, since the technology was rolled out 10 years ago. That's a 1% receiver penetration rate. Over a decade.

The figure for "radios" is about 700 million... obviously including many no longer being used.

A lot of HD equipped car radios were sold in areas where the is no HD service.

A lot of people buying HD equipped radios purchased them for reasons other than the HD feature.

Unless accompanied by an FM translator, no HD-2 or beyond signal shows in the ratings.

 

[iyiyi]

Apple is a closely held business where iBiquity is a consortium of interests. Possibly someone just hasn't figured out a way to profitably exploit the potentials of IBOC yet. I am certain that IBOC's versatility will be put to good use soon. There are too many opportunities inherent in IBOC to capitalize on to just dismiss.

Apple is anything but closely held. There are 960 million shares outstanding and publicly traded, and only about 0.05% are owned by "insiders" which is the definition of "closely held."

iBiquity is prinipally owned by several investment banking firms, with minority positions owned by some of the larger group broadcasters. iBiquity is a "by the book" closely held company, as shares are not openly traded.

Sorry! Poor choice of words. I should have said "tightly controlled". Apple may have millions of outstanding shares but I'm sure those 0.05% insiders have control of the ship. I believe that iBiquity is more run by a committee of diverse parties.

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[davideduardo]

Sorry! Poor choice of words. I should have said "tightly controlled". Apple may have millions of outstanding shares but I'm sure those 0.05% insiders have control of the ship. I believe that

Apple's board of directors, who are supposed to be representatives of the shareholders, call the overall shots and subject to all the rules, regulations and laws for a big, publicly held corporation. Day to day operations are handled by a normal corporate management structure.

iBiquity looks like it is controlled by the small group of investment bankers that provided most of the funding. The broadcast investors have relatively minor stakes. For the most part, iBiquity seems run based on upper management's decisions in concert with a couple of investment bankers... very tight control.

iBiquity would be similar, thus, in model to the model very common in the past where a small market station was put on the air by a local person with some investments by a couple of wealthier business folks and the local bank... where a shareholders' meeting as often as not included a bottle of Jack Daniels.

 

[TheBigA]

Izzat so? Perhaps you can, pray tell, explain what the #### Apple is doing on the tippety-top of the business world -- Einstein?

Simple. Apple may use a proprietary system and have an approval process, but anyone who can pay the $100 fee for a development kit can build apps for it. .

Exactly. That's what I was thinking.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

So - which company is more arrogant - Apple or iBiquity? No matter what your answer is - Apple is arrogant because they CAN be, they make products that a whole lot of people like, and that actually work. iBiquity - not so much. One product that barely works on FM and doesn't on AM.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Seven million, according to iBiquity, since the technology was rolled out 10 years ago. That's a 1% receiver penetration rate. Over a decade.

The figure for "radios" is about 700 million... obviously including many no longer being used.

700 million HD radios? That would be one for every ten people on earth, or more than two HD radios for every man, woman and child in the US. I don't believe that number.

 

[TheBigA]

But I think what makes Apple a better company is that they listen to their customers.

700 million HD radios?

I think he means standard radios. In the US.

 

[davideduardo]

The figure for "radios" is about 700 million... obviously including many no longer being used.


700 million HD radios? That would be one for every ten people on earth, or more than two HD radios for every man, woman and child in the US. I don't believe that number.

Where did I say "HD"? There are generally accepted estimates of around 700 million radios in the country.

Start with 250,000,000 registered motor vehicles, nearly all of which have radios. Then you have clock radios, kitchen radios, portables, boom boxes, radios built into docking stations, boom boxes, stereos, radios in workplaces, and so on.

700 million is probably conservative.

(My point is that 1 million HD radios is a tiny, tiny number)

 

[rbrucecarter5]

The figure for "radios" is about 700 million... obviously including many no longer being used.


700 million HD radios? That would be one for every ten people on earth, or more than two HD radios for every man, woman and child in the US. I don't believe that number.

Where did I say "HD"? There are generally accepted estimates of around 700 million radios in the country.

Start with 250,000,000 registered motor vehicles, nearly all of which have radios. Then you have clock radios, kitchen radios, portables, boom boxes, radios built into docking stations, boom boxes, stereos, radios in workplaces, and so on.

700 million is probably conservative.

(My point is that 1 million HD radios is a tiny, tiny number)

OK - misunderstood, sorry!

I've got three of the one million. I'd have zero if two of them weren't excellent DX tuners as well, and if Houston analog formats didn't completely suck, leaving the good stuff only on HD-2. Too bad HD radio is unreliable even on local signals, so it is back to satellite and iPhone radio apps for me. The Pioneer car HD radio is still worth the price, but only because Pioneer restored the sensitivity on AM and I can now get KVNS in the car. Because I am used to DX'ing and somewhat more tolerant of reception problems, I can only imagine the frustration the average consumer has when they turn on a radio and have problems receiving the station.

Another huge problem with HD radio - the latency time before HD lock is achieved. I never realized how annoying it is to turn on a radio and wait 5 to 10 seconds before I hear anything. Not acceptable to consumers who are used to pushing a button and having music come out immediately. Somebody really dropped the ball on that one. Even more annoying is if HD is down, your preset is an HD-2, and after 20 to 30 seconds of silence on the HD-2 preset, you get the analog format which sucks and you aren't interested in. And it STAYS there even if HD comes back up, forcing you to tune away then tune back. REALLY bad.

 

[nd2023]

Don't forget the HD radios that are broken because they are flimsy, and the HD radios that collect dust because they're useless. And devices like the Zune HD that contain an HD radio but people won't use the radio at all. And the HD radios in cars that people intentionally disable the HD reception because it's terrible.

If iBiquity were publicly traded, I would short sell it because I know it will go bankrupt within a decade. As it is, one of my friends who worked there recently quit since he got a better job offer elsewhere presumably with better job security.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

As it is, one of my friends who worked there recently quit since he got a better job offer elsewhere presumably with better job security.

If your friend is an engineer, see if he would be willing to be a "whistle blower" on the technology. There is some corruption going on somewhere, or the FCC would never have approved this flawed system.

 

[davideduardo]

Another huge problem with HD radio - the latency time before HD lock is achieved. I never realized how annoying it is to turn on a radio and wait 5 to 10 seconds before I hear anything. Not acceptable to consumers who are used to pushing a button and having music come out immediately.

XM Sirius has latency. Streams have latency. Both are growing in usage, and subtracting from the time available to listen to OTA radio.