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Rivendell and Linux: any experience?

Geez, I D/L an .iso file and burned it to a DVD. Stuffed the DVD in a grandfather box and booted the box. Tweny mintues later Igot Ubuntu running properly and updated. Easier than putting Win7 on one. Alls I had to do was remember the close and minimize icons are on the other side of the title bar.

And for the other guy, Unix dates back many years, Linix is a subset if Unix essentially. It's a good operating system in that it's quite stable, there aren't yet a lot of viruses and malware out there for it, and it inherently multitasks. More people are writing software to run under Linux than any other OS. (Every kid with a laptop) Since it is open source and freeware, commercial developers tend not to spend a lot of time with it. Consequently, whether or not its appropriate in a business environment is up to the individual buainess.
 
littlejohn said:
Geez, I D/L an .iso file and burned it to a DVD. Stuffed the DVD in a grandfather box and booted the box. Tweny mintues later Igot Ubuntu running properly and updated. Easier than putting Win7 on one. Alls I had to do was remember the close and minimize icons are on the other side of the title bar.

And for the other guy, Unix dates back many years, Linix is a subset if Unix essentially. It's a good operating system in that it's quite stable, there aren't yet a lot of viruses and malware out there for it, and it inherently multitasks. More people are writing software to run under Linux than any other OS. (Every kid with a laptop) Since it is open source and freeware, commercial developers tend not to spend a lot of time with it. Consequently, whether or not its appropriate in a business environment is up to the individual buainess.

I always respect your opinions, John. Maybe my post came off with the wrong 'emotion'.

I meant...

I don't see the point of using this in a radio station. You can install Windows 7 in 15 minutes from a flash drive to a worstation. Put your automation on it and go.

I run Ubuntu as well in two studio's for a different project. It does work. I do get 'more' updates for it than Windows.

Also, I don't argue that people write programs for it. I just think with your stations automation, with all the multitasking we do now... Who has time to learn all this just to get a 'free' (it's not free after you have invested all your time in it) system working when there are so many working Windows options that are in the field.
 
Okay lets all get past the point that both linux and Windows are installed within a few mouse clicks. Now we have a basic OS. To get from there to the point you want to be will be quite different. I have some experience with linux and a lot with windows. Fact is with Windows you're set to go, drivers won't be a problem and software won't be either. Talking with the rest of your network probibly also Windows will be just a few mouse clicks. Now, if you decided to take the linux road you first need to decide which distro you need. Let's say you chose the right one the first time you now need to figure out if all your hardware is supported. Chances are that or your hardware or the software you wanted to use isn't supported with this particular distro, go figure. You can ask the community for help or have some kid with too much time on his hand to write you a package to get you going but what if he decides to ask money the next you ask him? And are you able to check the code for yourself and check no backdoor is created? Okay lets trust the kid and get going. Now, probably a few weeks later down the road, we can go and tie the linux box to your windows network. Oh d*mn we have Active Directory..... hmmmm let see if we can get LDAP working.... oh sh*t we need lot's of tweaking on both linux and windows system to get everything talk to eachother...... sure we can give everybody full control or have some NFS share to exchange data between the two platforms, only more point of failures in your chain but we decided to take this road so lets stick to it. Where does it end? Let's go all linux that will sort things out right? No there's always something on Windows that has no linux alternative. To get a (already) long story short. Linux is great when tweaked for a specific task and hardware platform (so can Windows btw) but before you're there......

People in the linux/unix business make money, not on the software, but on the fact they figured all the above out for you. They supply the hardware and software and all the rpm's required to get the specific job done. All you have to worry about is plug 'n play. And if you need any, not supported, features... be prepared to pay the price of support by the hour. Oh and whatever they wrote for you with your money you will need to put back in the community so you don't break with the GNU license.

Don't get me wrong, with the above I might come accross as a linux hater. I like linux as Windows and any other system that does a particular job the best. I just don't like to tweak something into something it's not while there's already something better for the job. Seems pointless, unlike you like to say.... look at me... I tweaked the hell out of linux to get it do the same I already established with Windows........ Good for you. Now come back when you can get it do something better than what was already available.
 
littlejohn said:
Geez, I D/L an .iso file and burned it to a DVD. Stuffed the DVD in a grandfather box and booted the box. Tweny mintues later Igot Ubuntu running properly and updated. Easier than putting Win7 on one. Alls I had to do was remember the close and minimize icons are on the other side of the title bar.

That messed me up when going from Ubuntu 8 to 10. Fortunately, I found a way to fix that in the configuration and put the icons back on the other side.

I haven't messed with Rivendell for a while but would like to try again. Unfortunately it's the middle of high school football coverage season, so free time is in short supply...
 
chriscollins said:
I don't see the point of using this in a radio station. You can install Windows 7 in 15 minutes from a flash drive to a worstation. Put your automation on it and go.

How many of the big dog automation systems actually run on Windows 7? I know only of a few. Very few.
 
I've been running NexGen on WinXP Pro for years with no problems related to the OS. The servers are running Win2003 Server. Any of the problems have been due to either something not configured correctly in the automation or some weird bug on that version of software.

Same goes for the station running Simian (damn, that low budget software just keeps plugging along) and XP Pro. Also running iMediaTouch 4.0 (with Server 2003 on the FS) at another place with maybe 1% of the downtime due to the OS and not some other factor. The stupidest thing in OMT is that you have to restart the software every time you make a change... causes making a change to be a major pain in the rear when the station is running long form programming and you have to wait to switch to the back up to have your change register. I wish they would fix that.

Back to the OS thread, another place is running Enco DAD on... ready for it... Win2k machines!!! That one has the most issues out of the bunch, but I'm not sure how much is due to the OS or the size and complexity of the system. It'll all be moot soon when all the hardware is upgraded for Presenter. Rarely does the OS lock up.

I've looked at Linux here and there. It's great for an embedded operation, like the Linux running the Omnia.11. Or the Linux that runs on some other hardware boxes. As far as running a PC on it, I just don't have the time to fart around with it to make it do the basic tasks I can get done in Windows in a couple of seconds. Someone needs to come up with a "radio distro" of Linux that has all of the sound and networking parameters set to work, and then I'll think about it.

Also, with any other system that isn't free, I'm also paying for the support factor. Don't need to be posting to a message board at 2am when I'm off the air and wait for an answer from some guy in Zimbabwe. There's a reason things are free and others cost a fair amount of money. You wouldn't drive cross country in an open source car... but it would be fun around the neighborhood. For mission critical operations, I'll stick with what has a generous R&D department and tech support behind it.
 
Rivendell has paid support available from its owner, Paravel. Anybody can buy support or a turnkey system from them; and it is not in Zimbabwe, but in the DC area.

Activity on the Rivendell forum makes it clear that cost is the primary reason most of those users are adopting it. Reliability turns out to be a Rivendell advantage for those who get it installed correctly. One user (24 hour network originator) recently reported over 5 years on their main playout system with zero down time, and the only reason they took it down was for some hardware upgrades. Only in cases where money is no object, can Rivendell and Linux be peremptorily excluded; those with very limited funds cannot use the excuse that it may be too difficult for a tech to set up, so lets spend thousands on a Windows system, instead.

Over the years, I have had to deal in a professional capacity with Unix, DEC, CP/M, DOS, Windows, Mac, and now Linux systems. All have a learning curve, but one of the great advantages of Unix and Linux, after you learn your way around, is the great number of system tracking logs that can help identify where problems are, when they occur.

My group has been exploring Rivendell, and if you are having sound problems, don’t look to Rivendell as the problem, look to Linux. My advice would be to stay with hardware that is neither old nor cutting edge new, but “current”. Don’t test it on an old box that has been sitting in the corner for years and is a decade old. Use current hardware. (It is true that some aficionados have written Linux drivers for obscure old stuff--but it is sheer luck if you run into that.) Rivendell will work on anything Linux will support, including the mainboard soundcard, external soundcards, and USB soundcards (or a combination of all of them). In Rivendell 1.x versions, ASI soundcards were required to encode/decode MP2 files, but with the 2.x versions, Rivendell can now encode/decode with software, and the (again expensive) ASI cards are no longer necessary, opening up a lot more economical alternatives. Rivendell can import MP3 and FLAC, but it stores files internally only as either WAV or MP2 (switchable in setup).

Rivendell was formerly developed on SuSE, but there was a switch to CentOS earlier this year. Several Linux experts on the Rivendell forum recommend Ubuntu (NOT with KDE desktop, though--as it has incompatibilities that cause problems with Rivendell). Like those here who prefer Windows’ ease of setup, CentOS is a bear to deal with; Ubuntu is comparatively easy.

Unfortunately, none of the appliance iso’s are up to date, nor is there an Ubuntu software package manager download for v2.x--only v1.x. Best to compile your own from the CVS head. Start here:

http://www.thevoiceasia.com/rivendell/Rivendell_2_on_Ubuntu_1104.pdf

Longtime Rivendell forum members advise against using anything but the LTS versions of Ubuntu--although I have it working acceptably on 11.04. And, as someone earlier noted, do not update the production system (it should be isolated from the Internet, anyway). Many a submission to the Rivendell forum has come from someone who destroyed a perfectly working Rivendell system by doing a Linux update.

According to Paravel, the number of systems they know about are in the hundreds, but I suspect it is now easily over a thousand. There is an active development community in France and Germany, supporting systems worldwide. The Rivendell forum regularly has users commenting from Brazil and several other South American countries, Australia and New Zealand, Italy, Spain, France, Germany, and a couple of Nordic countries.
 
@F Mister

Ubuntu is easier to install then windows nowadays. I have loads of experience with linux ( Ubuntu/Debian ).
You are referring to the slackware age. This is not the case anymore and this especially is the reason why debian moved towards ubuntu.

Ubuntu is installable via some mouseclicks and can even be installed from and to a usb stick.

One very very important point is the real time behaviour of the kernel. Which implements latencies ( audio ) of around 2 ms if desired ( jack audio ).
When it comes to latency, linux RT will win hands on.

BR
 
fugazi said:
@F Mister

Ubuntu is easier to install then windows nowadays. I have loads of experience with linux ( Ubuntu/Debian ).
You are referring to the slackware age. This is not the case anymore and this especially is the reason why debian moved towards ubuntu.

Ubuntu is installable via some mouseclicks and can even be installed from and to a usb stick.

One very very important point is the real time behaviour of the kernel. Which implements latencies ( audio ) of around 2 ms if desired ( jack audio ).
When it comes to latency, linux RT will win hands on.

BR

Perhaps you should re-read my post. I said clearly that BOTH are installed within a few clicks. But then........... why are we having this discussion in the first place? Maybe because the topic starter had no problem with the install of the basic OS but to get from there to audio out of the speakers...... just my point.
 
Quick reading mode off..

Yep you're right.

Getting audio out of linux is another thing. On that windows is much more robust. This is in most cases a driver issue.
 
richard.vanderveen said:
WNTIRadio said:
This looks interesting, their claiming it cuts out a lot of the BS. I think I'll give it a go on the spare PC.

http://www.paravelsystems.com/appliance.html

That's the one of the two I couldn't get working with the Digigram VX222v2. I tried with a an M-audio later, Linux accepted the card and i could add it in Rivendell, but no sound...

Richard,

If you are dead set on this, I think you really need an ASI card. Seems like it will be much easier.
 
Then the whole idea of a "free" automation system turns into an $800 sound card.
 
WNTIRadio said:
Then the whole idea of a "free" automation system turns into an $800 sound card.

You and I both know nothing is truly free.

The doc's for that system do clearly tell you to use ASI cards.

I, personally, still think Windows is the way to go.
 
Getting the audio to work under Rivendell is one of the issues almost everyone has. From what I have read on the mailing list , I haven't attempted an install lately, is that most often it is not a driver issue, but a user/permissions issue and the timing of the start up of the rd daemon.

Ubuntu/Linux, etc. does almost everything on the daemon level (daemons are programs that run in the "background" and do much if not all of the heavy lifting). It is also a very secure OS, so you have to be sure that whatever OS user (as opposed to GUI user) is requesting to start the audio daemon has permission to do so.

This permissions structure of the OS is one of the reasons you rarely have trojans and worms on a linux-based system. Unlike Windows.....
 
richard.vanderveen said:
That's the one of the two I couldn't get working with the Digigram VX222v2. I tried with a an M-audio later, Linux accepted the card and i could add it in Rivendell, but no sound...

I was able to make RD fly with an M-Audio 1010LT card, both in ALSA and also JACK with relative ease, but it took a little futzing. Their wiki helped a lot. http://rivendell.tryphon.org/wiki/Delta_1010LT

It aint plug'n'play but keeps my inquisitive mind happy.
 
streamer said:
I was able to make RD fly with an M-Audio 1010LT card, both in ALSA and also JACK with relative ease, but it took a little futzing. Their wiki helped a lot. http://rivendell.tryphon.org/wiki/Delta_1010LT

Well... this is close to a perfect example. How the *** am I supposed to understand what all that means without studying Linux for the next 6 months?
What is the user supposed to do? There is no explanation whatsoever. And why oh why can't stuff like that be put in a Linux equivalent of a .bat, .exe or whatever usable file accompanied with an explanation about WHAT is does?
 
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