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Rivendell and Linux: any experience?

I agree with you Richard, who has time to figure out the Rubix Cube. If I went to school for programming and Linux, I would be a pro at it. But, gotta keep the transmitters running, build a few studios, replace the EAS boxes, fix things... so learning the intricacies of Linux has to wait. I'll stick with Windows for now.

Why can't Linux be made to "run" like Windows, just with the security etc. under the hood? Personally, I think the geeks like to have it to themselves, same thing as people that only like bands that nobody ever listens to.
 
WNTIRadio said:
I agree with you Richard, who has time to figure out the Rubix Cube. If I went to school for programming and Linux, I would be a pro at it. But, gotta keep the transmitters running, build a few studios, replace the EAS boxes, fix things... so learning the intricacies of Linux has to wait. I'll stick with Windows for now.

Why can't Linux be made to "run" like Windows, just with the security etc. under the hood? Personally, I think the geeks like to have it to themselves, same thing as people that only like bands that nobody ever listens to.

Amen.

I know the 'Linux' fan on here will keep bashing me, but seriously... Windows 7 SP1 is good on security, easy to setup, has drivers for everything, and generally makes my day to day job easier. I spend my free time learning how to enhance my Windows experience, since I know I will HAVE to deal with that for a long, long time to come.

Linux was a hobby for me for a while, but there is no appreciable gain in any kind of functionality in using it. In fact, in my experience, the user experience is a step backwards from Windows.
 
WNTIRadio said:
Why can't Linux be made to "run" like Windows, just with the security etc. under the hood?

It can! I think the latest version is called OS X Lion ;D


Regards,
Goran Tomas
 
Goran Tomas said:
WNTIRadio said:
Why can't Linux be made to "run" like Windows, just with the security etc. under the hood?
It can! I think the latest version is called OS X Lion ;D
You might have a good point there...
But (apart from the hardware cost) I don't know of any serious automation software running on OS X which, if you think about the popularity of the platform in all kinds of production, is a bit weird
 
Rivendell 2.x does NOT require ASI cards to get audio out, or to make it easier! I am surprised you guys resist keeping up and learning stuff as the world moves on. Anybody here remember the changes CMX and Ampex FORCED on the tech side of video editing? Linux is NOT hard. Get a copy of “Running Linux” or “Linux in a Nutshell” and find the time to do a little continuing education. You need to know this stuff. Linux is not going away.

All you need is an audio card that is supported by Linux. Lots of the older M-Audio and ASI cards are no longer supported in Linux. Again, with a “current” box, you don’t need any audio card to test things, if the motherboard has onboard audio.

The Rivendell documentation is not up-to-date, as there is only one primary developer. All documentation aside from the one operation manual is done solely by voluntary contributors. A lot of that is years out-of-date. There is hardly any documentation on v2.x, aside from the ‘be careful’ info on upgrading from 1.x to 2.x. Anything that says ASI is required or will ‘make things easier’ is way out-of-date. v2.x was released in time for the NAB, and Rivendell/Paravel had a booth there this year. Even with v1.x, you do not need any fancy audio card to test it out.

One of the things that has made audio more difficult in Linux, is they changed the whole sound architecture in the last few years. The improvements are immense, but you might need to read up on OSS and ALSA to iron out any difficulties you might be having. Again, a “current” box should install ALSA by default, but older boxes might default to OSS and give you problems. Learning the contents of config files is necessary for this. And make sure your reference books are current, as older books may not have the new info.

As I noted previously--NONE of the appliance iso’s are current. The developers promise a new one for v2.x, but not until CentOS 6 is released.

Also, another note of caution, the chief developer said yesterday that they are currently experimenting with changes to the Rivendell audio database (which runs on an Apache server installed with Rivendell), and there may be bugs in the latest CVS head releases, until they work their way through that. You might want to experiment with the stable release--although if you know your way around Linux, you might want to help him debug the changes.

Get on the Rivendell mailing list. There are some really competent people there, and they need more--one of the most knowledgeable recently changed jobs and no longer has time to help, and he responded daily many requests for help. One guy in London is really doing some nifty things with audio, including some different (and really cheap) methods of getting remote audio into his station via IP, and he is willingly sharing it all. Rivendell supports touch screen and GPIO devices and has its own macro language. Some of the game controllers people are tearing apart to use as GPIO input, are really weird and interesting.

Again, start with that PDF in my earlier post. It is not on the Rivendell/Tryphon site, but is the best documentation of how to compile and install the 2.x version of Rivendell I have seen.

My advice is don’t mess with v1.x. 2.x is a major advance in several ways. It supports 64-bit architecture (Linux had stable 64-bit long before Micro$oft), makes major changes to the way the audio database is handled, and completely eliminates the need for any special audio card (specifically ASI) as all encoding/decoding is now done with software, and will run on any audio card you can get running on Linux. No more work is being done on the 1.x version (although there are a ton of them still in operation); anything new will be on 2.x only.
 
As far as Richard’s specific problems go, I would first recommend not using an external audio card until you have it working on the m-b audio. If it is a computer too old to have m-b audio, then use a newer machine. The older machine is likely too out-of-date to make installation simple.

Lots of people on the Rivendell mailing list report problems using CentOS. CentOS is the open-source version of Red Hat. Red Hat is pretty well known as a bullet-proof platform, and because of that, configurations and changes are complex to accomplish. If you are not yet that experienced with Linux, don’t start with CentOS. I recommend installing the 64-bit version of either Ubuntu 10.04LTS (long-term support) or Ubuntu 11.04. If your hardware will not support 64-bit, then use something newer that does (again, current hardware is the key word). With Ubuntu 11.04, you have to do some gyrations at log-on to get the Gnome desktop. Ubuntu’s chief is trying to force his Unity desktop on everyone, and it is all icons and no menus, looking like a Kindergarteners concept of computing. Very hard to find setups (or even programs) in Unity. As I recall, at log-on, at the bottom of the screen is a choice to go with Gnome--or maybe you have to right-click somewhere on the Unity desktop to get to log-on choices.

Then, follow the instructions in that PDF referenced in my earlier post. There are some directories that must be created at each start-up and the Rivendell daemons must be started. That is all in the PDF, but if you neglect those steps,--even if you have Rivendell working, and then you shut down,--unless you followed the directions to create those directories and give them the correct permissions, it will not run again. Things also have to be started in the correct order (JACK first, THEN Rivendell daemons), but all that is addressed in the PDF. I find JACK simply amazing, and more and more programs are supporting it, including Ardour (audio editing) and Cinelerra (video editing). Still have not found the correct incantations to get the Rivendell connections established automatically in JACK; I have to draw them into the JACK connections patch bay each time.

Get Rivendell working with the m-b sound first. Once you have that under your belt, add in the external soundcard. They are always saying in the mailing list--check the LINUX compatibility list. It won’t work with Rivendell if it is not in the Linux list in the first place. And there are older ASI cards that are no longer compatible with Linux.
 
Good. Linux is not hard, it is just unfamiliar. It also requires a lot more manual configuration at this point than Windows. But think back to Win95 and 98. It was awful back then. Remember scrubbing down a hard drive for multiple re-installations after repeated blue-screen lock-ups? Back then, whether the whole setup would work, often depended on what order you installed programs and drivers. And there were lots of ".ini" files that needed tweaking. I think Linux is just a little bit more advanced than that. Still requires a lot of work.

But a lot better than the Linux of just 5 years ago, when Samba was a bear to get working, and NFS did not really exist. Now, all of that works out of the box. It can look at NTFS partitions on drives and read/write to them without errors (not that that is recommended).

Don't get me wrong, I still prefer Windows for everyday use, but the gap is closing.
 
whoops said:
Good. Linux is not hard, it is just unfamiliar. It also requires a lot more manual configuration at this point than Windows. But think back to Win95 and 98. It was awful back then. Remember scrubbing down a hard drive for multiple re-installations after repeated blue-screen lock-ups? Back then, whether the whole setup would work, often depended on what order you installed programs and drivers. And there were lots of ".ini" files that needed tweaking. I think Linux is just a little bit more advanced than that. Still requires a lot of work.

But a lot better than the Linux of just 5 years ago, when Samba was a bear to get working, and NFS did not really exist. Now, all of that works out of the box. It can look at NTFS partitions on drives and read/write to them without errors (not that that is recommended).

Don't get me wrong, I still prefer Windows for everyday use, but the gap is closing.

I think some may have gotten me wrong... I know Linux reasonably well. I use it every day. I just think my Automation needs to be on a commercial OS and be from a commercial vendor.

I am, however, going to see if I like this.
 
Hmm. I do not understand. Red Hat is a commercial vendor of Linux and provides tech support of their product, and Red Hat eventually releases its product as open-source CentOS, which Rivendell is developed on. So Red Hat would be a commercial OS and will run Rivendell.

Paravel is a commercial vendor of Rivendell, which sells and provides support for the product--in addition to owning it.

Even though Linux is not pervasive on the desktop, one or another flavor of Linux probably runs more servers in world than does M$. I fail to see how Paravel-purchased Rivendell on paid-for and tech-supported Linux does not qualify as a commercial OS and commercial vendor of automation software.
 
How about this one?

I LIKE Audiovault.

That should be simple and clear.

Also, I got Rivendel working with my onboard sound via your instructions. It wasn't that difficult.

You are fighting a losing battle, if you think you can convince anyone the support for Linux and Rivendel is anywhere near that of Windows and BE.

While that may not matter for Joe Blow LPFM, it does when you've got millions of dollars flowing through your automation system.



Since this has degenerated into a Windows vs Linux thread, my posting is over. All of you have a lovely day. If you follow the pdf, though, you can get it working inside of 1.5 hours on modern hardware.
 
Chris...

As someone who has used both AudioVault and Rivendell and as someone who does have millions of dollars running through an automation system I will tell you I would choose the Rivendell over the AudioVault any day of the week.

I have waited for hours for AudioVault to call back when I needed support. It is very rare that Fred Gleason didn't call back right away if he did not answer when I called. E-Mails are responded to right away. If you choose to pay for support you will find Paravel Systems will do you a very good job.

Very happy Rivendell user...

Test123
 
test123 said:
Chris...

As someone who has used both AudioVault and Rivendell and as someone who does have millions of dollars running through an automation system I will tell you I would choose the Rivendell over the AudioVault any day of the week.

I have waited for hours for AudioVault to call back when I needed support. It is very rare that Fred Gleason didn't call back right away if he did not answer when I called. E-Mails are responded to right away. If you choose to pay for support you will find Paravel Systems will do you a very good job.

Very happy Rivendell user...

Test123

You and I have had very different Audiovault relationships then... I have been on that system for >12 years. I have never had bad support from them. Of course, I hardly ever need support from them, so that may have something to do with it.
 
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