Rochester's Winter book comes out, and no comment? Some pretty interesting 12+ results. Yeah, bragging rights, blah, blah, blah, but there's got to be some significant shifts in the demos when The Fox beats 'CMF for the first time, Clear Channel's Kiss gets crushed, and The Zone falls off the table.
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Rochester's Winter Book
- Thread starter SirRoxalot
- Start date
LEGENDS 102.7FM at 4.6 12+ in a Winter Book!!! Man, I can't wait until for the Summer Book now! On top of The Fox, CMF, The Drive, KISS and Others! Yeah baby!
S
scooterodell
Guest
With the recent staff reductions over at CC, might we expect to see WKGS and WDVI continue their slide? Or will they find a way to rebound? And why is it that WZNE always does so poorly? All of the other rock stations in town are "classic" oriented. Are there that few people interested in more recent music?
BUFFALO COMMENTARY NeedsMoreCowbell said:
Speculators be forewarned!
Cowbell has a point. I've expressed the same in past posts. Still, looking at the Legends ratings, you can't help but feel happy for the staff. But before the party gets out of hand, Legends' ratings are a double edged sword. First, given the format, it's likely the demographics are heavily skewed 50+. Nothing negatively implied, simply speculating.
Second, if the demographics show strength Persons 45-54 (i.e., top five or better) it's only a matter of time before a more powerful stick enters the competition with Legends on the flank or head on.
My guess is that WHAM, The Fox, WCMF, Bee and WBZA have the ears of most 35-54 year old men and women in Rochester. It appears Legends has found its success attracting a number of disenfranchised listeners who want to hear "Smokey Joe's Cafe" segued to or from "Smoke From A Distant Fire" or "In The Still Of The Night" segued to or from "Night Fever."
The bigger question is, especially in this challenged economy, will the ratings translate into revenue? As we all know, "nobody buys 50+ demographics." [/sarcasm]
Element9 said:
The Joe Centanni situation answers that question prior to the release of the Winter book. Now it's up to the sales guys to turn the numbers that they have into revenue. Let's see how that turns out.
My sincere congratulations to the Legends people who have indeed turned in an impressive showing. It is truly a fine accomplishment, especially viewed against the backdrop of big-group-radio hyped facilities like hapless Drive and CMF. Excellent job. Keep it up!
That being said: I would respectfully caution Legends to by-all-means have fun with this and celebrate, but avoid getting too far into the self-congratulatory mode. First of all, it isn't becoming. And then there is the time-worn wisdom which goes:
"Live by the numbers. DIE by the numbers." The real test of success is the long haul, and how you do revenue-wise year to year. It's only a matter of time: a good book is followed, sooner or later, by a BAD book.
We wish you well.
That being said: I would respectfully caution Legends to by-all-means have fun with this and celebrate, but avoid getting too far into the self-congratulatory mode. First of all, it isn't becoming. And then there is the time-worn wisdom which goes:
"Live by the numbers. DIE by the numbers." The real test of success is the long haul, and how you do revenue-wise year to year. It's only a matter of time: a good book is followed, sooner or later, by a BAD book.
We wish you well.
N
No Compromise
Guest
"He who lives by the book, dies by the book", is the way I learned it. Ain't it the truth.
I noticed some inaccuracies in the winter book. The most notable error is that Arbitron lists Clear Channel as owning both WHAM and WBEE. Entercom owns WBEE.
As for Legends: Again I extend my congratulations on their success. But Mr. Savage brings up some good points. It's okay to celebrate, but a few went a bit overboard; especially one poster telling people to "shut up." Just a warning that there are those who post on this board who will remember that comment should the next book prove that the winter numbers for Legends were a fluke.
Regarding Mr. Savage, I still find it very hard to believe that his station only garnered a small share. Data I've seen in the past indicates that WYSL's audience has grown over the years, especially with the addition of Quinn and Rose and Bill Nojay's talk shows. Either Arbitron isn't handing out books in Livingston County or something else is going on.
The real loser in this book is Stephens Media. Granted that WRMM did well in the 12+ numbers, but the other two stations are hardly a blip on the radar screen.
And what's going to happen to WRMM when Tony Infantino's contract expires and he jumps ship to a new station to be reunited with Dee Alexander?
As for Legends: Again I extend my congratulations on their success. But Mr. Savage brings up some good points. It's okay to celebrate, but a few went a bit overboard; especially one poster telling people to "shut up." Just a warning that there are those who post on this board who will remember that comment should the next book prove that the winter numbers for Legends were a fluke.
Regarding Mr. Savage, I still find it very hard to believe that his station only garnered a small share. Data I've seen in the past indicates that WYSL's audience has grown over the years, especially with the addition of Quinn and Rose and Bill Nojay's talk shows. Either Arbitron isn't handing out books in Livingston County or something else is going on.
The real loser in this book is Stephens Media. Granted that WRMM did well in the 12+ numbers, but the other two stations are hardly a blip on the radar screen.
And what's going to happen to WRMM when Tony Infantino's contract expires and he jumps ship to a new station to be reunited with Dee Alexander?
Congrats to Legends. Their success just shows that there is an audience out there, but they're searching for something other than the pre-packaged, over-researched, over-formatted McDonalds Radio Happy Meals served up by most corporate run stations.
One word of warning. "Jack" formats also had big books - for about two years. The "variety" is a double-edged sword. The "oh wow" songs lose the "oh wow" factor after very few spins. Determining your musical core, and expanding on it in a way that doesn't turn listeners off is the tricky part. Good Luck!
One word of warning. "Jack" formats also had big books - for about two years. The "variety" is a double-edged sword. The "oh wow" songs lose the "oh wow" factor after very few spins. Determining your musical core, and expanding on it in a way that doesn't turn listeners off is the tricky part. Good Luck!
Let me add my voice to the growing list of posters who are congratulation Legends for an impressive 12+ Winter book in Rochester. Obviously, the 25-54 and 35-64 ratings are the great unknown for posters here and more relevant to the station's long term health. Still, you have to give credit where it's due. Good work, ladies and gentlemen.
As to the pros and cons over the chest thumping, a Marv Levy quote comes to mind. When Hall of Fame running back Thurmon Thomas once bacame a bit too exuberant after scoring a touchdown, he went to the sidelines where the Hall of Fame coach was waiting for him, "Act like you've been there before!" growled Levy. Thurmon went on to score many more TD's on the ground and as a pass receiver, after which he always acted like "he'd been there before." On a personal note, I've often refered to the trends and the book as "The Arbitron Lottery." Put your money down, spin the wheel and hope for the best. Sometimes you're the bat, sometimes you're the ball.
As to the pros and cons over the chest thumping, a Marv Levy quote comes to mind. When Hall of Fame running back Thurmon Thomas once bacame a bit too exuberant after scoring a touchdown, he went to the sidelines where the Hall of Fame coach was waiting for him, "Act like you've been there before!" growled Levy. Thurmon went on to score many more TD's on the ground and as a pass receiver, after which he always acted like "he'd been there before." On a personal note, I've often refered to the trends and the book as "The Arbitron Lottery." Put your money down, spin the wheel and hope for the best. Sometimes you're the bat, sometimes you're the ball.
My heartfelt thanks to all who offered not only their congratulations, but their words of advice. The euphoria we feel, as a result of this success, is undeniable! The only thing to do now for Legends is to build on the success we've achieved and continue to be a station that's fun to listen to while introducing new listeners to our station. We promise you, we will remain focused on the task at hand and your comments, given in the right spirit, are always welcome.
we listen to legends at work and its a cool channel that hasn't gotten old yet. i wanted to call the hotline but this might work better, any chance for just maybe 1 or 2 grateful dead tunes on the station god knows classic rock wont touch them and they deserve a little airplay. as far as the drive is concerned they should expand their playlist a little and let some people in rochester pick the tunes, we who listen to the station should have a stake in the songs that are played.
qman said:
Except that people who listen to WBER are not listening to WZNE, which I believe is the point.
B
Bob1370
Guest
What's most interesting is to examine the 12+ numbers in light of what we know about the demographic history (as well as the targets) of each of these stations.
WHAM's announced target demo is 35-64. Historically it's been very top-heavy at the older end of that range, as well as a huge share of 65+, giving it the 12+ beauty contest prize, but likely not bringing it the kind of $$$ they surely want from it. WBEE may be a share point back, but its strength is more gender-balanced and very heavily 25-54, which is just what advertisers really, really want.
WDKX is building its strength on 12-34 listeners both inside and outside the city, and that's not just good news for its current situation, but probably for its future since listeners you win young, you tend to hold on to for a long time. The 16 year-old listener of today will probably still be listening to them at 32. And the next generation of 16-year-olds will be with them too. If they stay the course of playing the hits across the demograophic spectrum with personality, they'll stay strong for a long time, a lot like WBBF enjoyed a quarter-century of success from about 1955 to 1980--except that BBF eventually got pushed aside by FM competition and that won't be a problem for DKX. The Langstons might want to think about extending their signal either by raising power to the limit for their class A license (which would mean doubling it), or seeing if a struggling full-market-coverage station can be pried loose from its current owner at a discount, and moving the DKX call and format to a new stronger signal. (Drive 100.5 looks like a candidate, since Clear Channel is hurting and seems to have given up on that station.) They could then turn around and either sell 103.9, or keep it and turn it into the market's first Latin format station, the one formatic hole no one has tried yet to fill.
Legends 102.7 is showing there was a genuine need for an oldies/classic hits station, and they're filling it well to a lot of listeners' satisfaction. Their music mix sounds positively crazy at times. I've heard a sweep of Sinatra/jingle/Rolling Stones recently. While Fickle, or Jack in Buffalo, may talk about "playing everything" or "playing what we want", the folks at Crawford are actually doing it, and getting away with it. They probably will continue to get away with it, whatever radio experts and purists may say. It works far better than those other automated stations because Legends has live and likable human beings in most dayparts presenting it and tying it all together. The personality a station presents is just as important as its music programming--maybe even more important--and if the personality is warm and friendly, the music can work even if logic and research says otherwise.
CMF is finding out just how much losing Wease has hurt them--and Fox 95.1 has, in Wease, finally found the act that can make the station a real player. They won't progress further unless they bolster other dayparts with live local personality (something I don't think we can expect anytime soon from Clear Channel, which seems bent on slitting its corporate throat through forcing many of its stations into dependence on national syndication and voicetracking). But Wease will keep them alive.
Kiss and Drive can't rebound under the new corporate strategy. What's going to get them more listeners when they've driven away their only real point of contact with the local audience, those stations' morning shows? Electronic juke boxes never lead their formats against live local competition. PXY and Buzz have been handed a gift by Clear Channel.
Down toward the other end of the ratings pecking order, we now have proof that Rochester cannot support two sports-talk stations. Either WHTK (which has fallen in half in 12+ numbers since WROC started battling it) or WROC (ditto) will have to give it up. One station might survive with a format that can deliver maybe a 2 share aggregate to every station within it. Two of them, splitting less than a two share, can't. It'll be interesting to see who gives it up, and what they change to--but a change will have to come to one of them.
WHAM's announced target demo is 35-64. Historically it's been very top-heavy at the older end of that range, as well as a huge share of 65+, giving it the 12+ beauty contest prize, but likely not bringing it the kind of $$$ they surely want from it. WBEE may be a share point back, but its strength is more gender-balanced and very heavily 25-54, which is just what advertisers really, really want.
WDKX is building its strength on 12-34 listeners both inside and outside the city, and that's not just good news for its current situation, but probably for its future since listeners you win young, you tend to hold on to for a long time. The 16 year-old listener of today will probably still be listening to them at 32. And the next generation of 16-year-olds will be with them too. If they stay the course of playing the hits across the demograophic spectrum with personality, they'll stay strong for a long time, a lot like WBBF enjoyed a quarter-century of success from about 1955 to 1980--except that BBF eventually got pushed aside by FM competition and that won't be a problem for DKX. The Langstons might want to think about extending their signal either by raising power to the limit for their class A license (which would mean doubling it), or seeing if a struggling full-market-coverage station can be pried loose from its current owner at a discount, and moving the DKX call and format to a new stronger signal. (Drive 100.5 looks like a candidate, since Clear Channel is hurting and seems to have given up on that station.) They could then turn around and either sell 103.9, or keep it and turn it into the market's first Latin format station, the one formatic hole no one has tried yet to fill.
Legends 102.7 is showing there was a genuine need for an oldies/classic hits station, and they're filling it well to a lot of listeners' satisfaction. Their music mix sounds positively crazy at times. I've heard a sweep of Sinatra/jingle/Rolling Stones recently. While Fickle, or Jack in Buffalo, may talk about "playing everything" or "playing what we want", the folks at Crawford are actually doing it, and getting away with it. They probably will continue to get away with it, whatever radio experts and purists may say. It works far better than those other automated stations because Legends has live and likable human beings in most dayparts presenting it and tying it all together. The personality a station presents is just as important as its music programming--maybe even more important--and if the personality is warm and friendly, the music can work even if logic and research says otherwise.
CMF is finding out just how much losing Wease has hurt them--and Fox 95.1 has, in Wease, finally found the act that can make the station a real player. They won't progress further unless they bolster other dayparts with live local personality (something I don't think we can expect anytime soon from Clear Channel, which seems bent on slitting its corporate throat through forcing many of its stations into dependence on national syndication and voicetracking). But Wease will keep them alive.
Kiss and Drive can't rebound under the new corporate strategy. What's going to get them more listeners when they've driven away their only real point of contact with the local audience, those stations' morning shows? Electronic juke boxes never lead their formats against live local competition. PXY and Buzz have been handed a gift by Clear Channel.
Down toward the other end of the ratings pecking order, we now have proof that Rochester cannot support two sports-talk stations. Either WHTK (which has fallen in half in 12+ numbers since WROC started battling it) or WROC (ditto) will have to give it up. One station might survive with a format that can deliver maybe a 2 share aggregate to every station within it. Two of them, splitting less than a two share, can't. It'll be interesting to see who gives it up, and what they change to--but a change will have to come to one of them.
All very predictable, and predicted on this board by yours truly and others.
Now, if WROC were to revert to progressive talk and run the format in a professional manner, as if the managements' jobs depended on it (which it didn't the first time around) the station would find an appreciative and increased audience. Likewise WHTK if it were the one to drop sports.
Some offhand non-scientific comments from a "never was" and "never will be" (well, unless I hit the lottery)...
I am hardly setting foot in every possible business in the Rochester area, but the ones I am setting foot in do seem to be moving over to Legends. In at least one case, it was a jettisoning of a satellite radio channel in favor of 102.7.
In terms of radio revenue, I am hearing a more numerous group of local advertisers on Legends, and perhaps more importantly for them, aim for a younger demographic-- at one time, the sponsor stable reminded me of WKRP in the first episode(!) (I am also noticing a few new ads on North Coast 105.9, which also gets some of my listening "share.") Meanwhile, the conglomerate outlets seem to be depending more and more on ads for cutting credit card debt, cleaning one's intestine, and worse; and less on local advertising. I haven't heard the word "HUGE" expressed as two syllables in quite a while, a fact that I am not lamenting.
I'm sorry to see from Scott Fybush's latest weekly report that even more live and local people are being shown the door in favor of voicetracks from the "haves" markets (to borrow Scott's terminology). If I put my ruthless MBA hat on, the "have" stations will probably be financed by continuing to bleed the "have nots"-- and I think that includes all of the employees of all of the stations down here in market number whatever it is. Even if I were pulling big numbers on a top rated station, I'd be thinking about my next career move. "Why does that itsy-bitsy has been city stuck to one of those Great Lakes-- what's it called? Rochester? Manchester? Parkchester? isn't that near Westchester?-- even need a live wake up show anyway? Kodak's dead, is there anyone even living there anymore? Just plug in the iPod and keep those colon blow spots coming..."
"If I fire everyone, I'll have no expenses! Everything will be pure profit!" -- The pointy-haired boss in Dilbert
I am hardly setting foot in every possible business in the Rochester area, but the ones I am setting foot in do seem to be moving over to Legends. In at least one case, it was a jettisoning of a satellite radio channel in favor of 102.7.
In terms of radio revenue, I am hearing a more numerous group of local advertisers on Legends, and perhaps more importantly for them, aim for a younger demographic-- at one time, the sponsor stable reminded me of WKRP in the first episode(!) (I am also noticing a few new ads on North Coast 105.9, which also gets some of my listening "share.") Meanwhile, the conglomerate outlets seem to be depending more and more on ads for cutting credit card debt, cleaning one's intestine, and worse; and less on local advertising. I haven't heard the word "HUGE" expressed as two syllables in quite a while, a fact that I am not lamenting.
I'm sorry to see from Scott Fybush's latest weekly report that even more live and local people are being shown the door in favor of voicetracks from the "haves" markets (to borrow Scott's terminology). If I put my ruthless MBA hat on, the "have" stations will probably be financed by continuing to bleed the "have nots"-- and I think that includes all of the employees of all of the stations down here in market number whatever it is. Even if I were pulling big numbers on a top rated station, I'd be thinking about my next career move. "Why does that itsy-bitsy has been city stuck to one of those Great Lakes-- what's it called? Rochester? Manchester? Parkchester? isn't that near Westchester?-- even need a live wake up show anyway? Kodak's dead, is there anyone even living there anymore? Just plug in the iPod and keep those colon blow spots coming..."
"If I fire everyone, I'll have no expenses! Everything will be pure profit!" -- The pointy-haired boss in Dilbert
I always love the anonymous people who call others unprofessional. Don't read here much, but was online tonight and a couple thoughts you should all know. 1. We are very happy with Sportsradio 950 ESPN. Ratings up from Progressive talk, and revenue WAY up since the swap 2. WCMF. AM Drive is #2 in Men 25-54, behind our country station WBEE. Where's the other guy? Behind us. Very happy with the guys on
The Breakroom. Our former host chose to reject our offers and accept an offer from the competitors. We decided to keep a live and local show on WCMF, and it is doing better than we had even dreamed. Don't let the 12+ silly numbers fool you. And don't always believe the BS you might hear. We offered to keep him, he got a better offer. Good for him. And we decided to stay live and local, and results are outstanding for us. By the way, we have 3 of the top 5 stations in Men (BEE/BUzz/CMF) and 3 of the top 5 stations in Women (BEE/Buzz & PXY). Guess you can't tell that from 12+. Congrats to kimberly, beck, pat the producer, The Mayor, Dem, Terri, Steve & Newman, Weslea, Billy Kidd, Big Daddy Dave Beck, Tommy, Sally, Bill Moran, Dave Kane, Robinson, Spezzano, Sandy, Amanda, Moose,Megan Mattice,& Mike Danger. I'm sure I missed someone, but we sure have a lot of live and local people on the air !!! Sometimes I forget some.
The Breakroom. Our former host chose to reject our offers and accept an offer from the competitors. We decided to keep a live and local show on WCMF, and it is doing better than we had even dreamed. Don't let the 12+ silly numbers fool you. And don't always believe the BS you might hear. We offered to keep him, he got a better offer. Good for him. And we decided to stay live and local, and results are outstanding for us. By the way, we have 3 of the top 5 stations in Men (BEE/BUzz/CMF) and 3 of the top 5 stations in Women (BEE/Buzz & PXY). Guess you can't tell that from 12+. Congrats to kimberly, beck, pat the producer, The Mayor, Dem, Terri, Steve & Newman, Weslea, Billy Kidd, Big Daddy Dave Beck, Tommy, Sally, Bill Moran, Dave Kane, Robinson, Spezzano, Sandy, Amanda, Moose,Megan Mattice,& Mike Danger. I'm sure I missed someone, but we sure have a lot of live and local people on the air !!! Sometimes I forget some.
I'll take the MBA creds as real, since you threaded the needle!
Two needles!! It is forgotten that not matter what you do, or how well...EVERYONE, not in sales, (read as liabilities on the balance sheet) has the face of George Washington. And if your in sales, you better be able to sell ice to the eskimos or you're next. (The P & L dictates direction...not format) Radio is prime for tech replacement. Everyone on the boards is seeing the parts, but not the whole. No one is immune.
(Disclaimer: no one wishes to see this industry turn around more than me - but the realities interfere with the fantasies. There will be a time, yet to be determined when it can be fun again)
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