Rock in New York City

[atlantaboy]

The few months that 101.9 went back to alternative the ratings were decent (in the 2's) for a New York station, with barely any promotion, street presence, or personalities.

This is the detail IMO people keep skipping over - Radio 105.7 in ATL started out in the 2's in its first month, and now is up to a 3.4 share in its second month, and that's on a signal that only covers half the city limits clearly

To CBS's credit, though, Clear Channel already had airstaff lined up from Philly and DC to cover half of the shifts, so initially it probably wasn't as much of a financial risk

I hate to ask this question, but is there any possibility of Emmis flipping WEPN, now that CBS is pummeling it, or is it still a high biller?

Or WWSK on Long Island?

 

[davideduardo]

To CBS's credit, though, Clear Channel already had airstaff lined up from Philly and DC to cover half of the shifts, so initially it probably wasn't as much of a financial risk

The combined salary of a couple of jocks in a market where the top station bills just under $40 million is totally insignificant.

I hate to ask this question, but is there any possibility of Emmis flipping WEPN, now that CBS is pummeling it, or is it still a high biller?

WEPN is in the equivalent of an LMA with ESPN. ESPN is in the sports business, not the radio business. It is very difficult to use conventional radio metrics on the ESPN radio operations. In any case, Emmis does not run the format... they get what you could call "rent" for the station.

Or WWSK on Long Island?

WWSK is out in Suffolk County, and has a usable signal over less than 900,000 persons in a market that is nearly 20 times that size.

 

[atlantaboy]

To CBS's credit, though, Clear Channel already had airstaff lined up from Philly and DC to cover half of the shifts, so initially it probably wasn't as much of a financial risk

The combined salary of a couple of jocks in a market where the top station bills just under $40 million is totally insignificant.

So then it was a risk - that, from all current indications, is paying off

I don't see the longterm plan for Now 92.3 - Z100 and KTU are miles ahead of it, there's a Rhythmic that's been in the market forever, and everything they play can be heard on other stations, just at a slower speed

With Alternative, in my opinion, you've got a niche of listeners that are going to remain loyal to the station, especially in a market where no one else is playing those tracks, and with the format trending up as it is, and WRFF as the most popular 18-34 station in Philadelphia, the prospect for an Alternative station in NYC looks like a much better financial investment, IMO, than a low-rated Top 40 station with nothing unique about it, not even a close third to the other two

Again, Alternative (combined with AAA), is getting at least a 3 share, if not higher, in every Top 10 market except Dallas - when financial reports come out at the end of this year, I feel like the results will be much more optimistic

 

[tjolsen]

Re:WWSK, it's format would not be well received in the city, it leans far to active rock, which as has been stated does not play well in NYC. Philadelphia's probably the only top market with a succesfull active rock outlet. Any station would need to sound something like rxp 2.0/wrff dc 101.

 

[atlantaboy]

^I was actually talking about the possibility of WWSK flipping to Alternative (from Active Rock), since its ratings on Long Island aren't that great - but I guess the signal is really weak...

 

[davideduardo]

^I was actually talking about the possibility of WWSK flipping to Alternative (from Active Rock), since its ratings on Long Island aren't that great - but I guess the signal is really weak...

You know, before you leap to erroneous conclusions about particular stations, you can check the coverage

http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/fm-query-broadcast-station-search

Just plug in the call letters, and then look at the licensed values and pick the Service Contour on Google Map and you get the 60 dbu signal area.

With WWSK you can see that the signal is a local, central Long Island Class A signal that only covers a small part of Long Island, and none of the City or the New Jersey counties in the metro.

Just keep in mind that 60 dbu is well beyond the at-home and at-work listening levels... which pretty much cuts off at 64 to 65 dbu... but still shows to some extent the coverage of a station.

You can also use http://radio-locator.com/ and plot the coverage; the useful (meaning "can get ratings in this area") signal is about 20% LESS than the innermost red contour of Radio Locator.

 

[Barry]

WWSK The Shark appears to be doing quite well, considering its limited signal. Since new owner Connoisseur Media flipped them to rock, their overall ratings have approximately doubled. At times they were just behind legacy WBAB, which has a considerably stronger signal.
It can be difficult classifying rock formats. But to me The Shark is more of a mainstream rock station that tends to play newer classic rock than WBAB or WAXQ. Perhaps WDHA in NJ is somewhat similar.
WDHA has had its current format for quite some time, so they must be doing alright. Those are two examples of rock stations in the area that appear to be succeeding, without specializing in alternative rock. There is also WXPK, with its AAA format.

 

[XCountry285]

^I was actually talking about the possibility of WWSK flipping to Alternative (from Active Rock), since its ratings on Long Island aren't that great - but I guess the signal is really weak...

You know, before you leap to erroneous conclusions about particular stations, you can check the coverage

http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/fm-query-broadcast-station-search

Just plug in the call letters, and then look at the licensed values and pick the Service Contour on Google Map and you get the 60 dbu signal area.

With WWSK you can see that the signal is a local, central Long Island Class A signal that only covers a small part of Long Island, and none of the City or the New Jersey counties in the metro.

Just keep in mind that 60 dbu is well beyond the at-home and at-work listening levels... which pretty much cuts off at 64 to 65 dbu... but still shows to some extent the coverage of a station.

You can also use http://radio-locator.com/ and plot the coverage; the useful (meaning "can get ratings in this area") signal is about 20% LESS than the innermost red contour of Radio Locator.

I live within about 60 dbu from all the city stations in Northern Passaic County and I have no problem picking up any of the NYC stations at all ever. I have a great signal in the car and at home.

 

[davideduardo]

I live within about 60 dbu from all the city stations in Northern Passaic County and I have no problem picking up any of the NYC stations at all ever. I have a great signal in the car and at home.

Car reception can extend well beyond the 60 dbu. However, in NYC only about 25% of listening is in the car.

Tabulation of millions of diaries on at work and at home ZIPs and comparing with coverage maps showed that 95% of such listening happens inside the 65 dbu contour.

You are an interested, active listener. The more typical listener generally puts up with no signal issues, does not twist the radio and the power cord to get better reception, etc. And, of course, coverage maps that are not Langley Rice plots can be considerably off... but still the generalization applies and is what real stations use to know who might listen and who will not.

 

[Bob E. Nelson]

And, of course, coverage maps that are not Langley Rice plots can be considerably off... but still the generalization applies and is what real stations use to know who might listen and who will not.

As a case in point, look at WOGL's Longley-Rice map here:

http://www.onairusa.com/fm/html/wogl-1424814-0.html

Compare the green area (roughly 65 dBu) with those of the red contour from Radio-Locator for the same facility:

http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WOGL&service=FM&status=L&hours=U

 

[CTListener]

WEPN is in the equivalent of an LMA with ESPN. ESPN is in the sports business, not the radio business. It is very difficult to use conventional radio metrics on the ESPN radio operations. In any case, Emmis does not run the format... they get what you could call "rent" for the station.

How exactly do ESPN's radio stations earn their keep, if "conventional radio metrics" don't work? Most sports radio listeners want to hear about their local teams, period. In NY this time of the year, that's the Yankees and Mets, and pre-training camp gab about the Giants and Jets. When Colin Cowherd starts going deep into the Nebraska Cornhuskers depth chart or some other generic Bristol-based host spends an hour on the Detroit Tigers' bullpen problems, WEPN must have a listenership of about 100. How does that help the ESPN brand?

 

[davideduardo]

And, of course, coverage maps that are not Langley Rice plots can be considerably off... but still the generalization applies and is what real stations use to know who might listen and who will not.

As a case in point, look at WOGL's Longley-Rice map here:

http://www.onairusa.com/fm/html/wogl-1424814-0.html

Compare the green area (roughly 65 dBu) with those of the red contour from Radio-Locator for the same facility:

http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WOGL&service=FM&status=L&hours=U

The red radio-locator contour roughly corresponds with the 60 dbu but your point is well taken.

 

[atlantaboy]

^I was actually talking about the possibility of WWSK flipping to Alternative (from Active Rock), since its ratings on Long Island aren't that great - but I guess the signal is really weak...

You know, before you leap to erroneous conclusions about particular stations, you can check the coverage

http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/fm-query-broadcast-station-search

Thank you - I think... :

 

[Bob E. Nelson]

Compare the green area (roughly 65 dBu) with those of the red contour from Radio-Locator for the same facility:

The red radio-locator contour roughly corresponds with the 60 dbu but your point is well taken.

My 65 dBu reference was to the green area of the L-R maps not Radio-Locator. The maps from the latter are largely dismissed as being for entertainment value from my perspective.

 

[davideduardo]

^I was actually talking about the possibility of WWSK flipping to Alternative (from Active Rock), since its ratings on Long Island aren't that great - but I guess the signal is really weak...

You know, before you leap to erroneous conclusions about particular stations, you can check the coverage

http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/fm-query-broadcast-station-search

Thank you - I think... :

You're welcome, I'm sure!

 

[davideduardo]

How exactly do ESPN's radio stations earn their keep, if "conventional radio metrics" don't work?

First, the conventional metrics don't work too well on sports stations in general. That's because there is a very strong magnetism between male buys and sports...

... think Gillette Cavalcade of Sports in other decades and eras...

... and there are dollars out there that only go into sports environments.

Add in the fact that ESPN gets sports marketing dollars as well as sports advertising dollars. They also benefit highly from the synergistic ESPN multimedia sales approach where they pull in dollars based on a very sophisticated research model that shows advertisers how they can cover a male target coming and going.

The stations bill very well in the major markets, although not as well as a rule as the 100% local sports outlet. Then they get the network revenues and the cross media dollars. Overall, very well done and they have an impressive pitch to clients.

 

[XCountry285]

I live within about 60 dbu from all the city stations in Northern Passaic County and I have no problem picking up any of the NYC stations at all ever. I have a great signal in the car and at home.

Car reception can extend well beyond the 60 dbu. However, in NYC only about 25% of listening is in the car.

Tabulation of millions of diaries on at work and at home ZIPs and comparing with coverage maps showed that 95% of such listening happens inside the 65 dbu contour.

You are an interested, active listener. The more typical listener generally puts up with no signal issues, does not twist the radio and the power cord to get better reception, etc. And, of course, coverage maps that are not Langley Rice plots can be considerably off... but still the generalization applies and is what real stations use to know who might listen and who will not.

West Milford despite it's 80 sq. mileage. You are able to receive all NYC stations with no problems even in the Hewitt Section. On my car radio no issues or my home stereo no issues. My alarm clocks-certain spots in my house if the antenna is facing a certain way you can't receive it too well but in a certain way you can get it to work. Again I'm on a hill. I get Hudson Valley & NYC stations.

 

[Theater of My Mind]

Pretty good article from Sean Ross at Edison Research today:

http://www.edisonresearch.com/home/...o-and-the-rock-comeback-thats-almost-here.php

Seeing success stories in Sacramento and Atlanta is particularly encouraging when you consider that both markets were bellwethers for the early ’90s Alternative breakthrough. The original 99X and KWOD Sacramento (now AC KBZC) were among the first Top 40-to-Alternative converts in the early ’90s, each of which helped set the Top 40 formatic underpinnings for what followed nationally a few years later.

 

[leethalweapon]

Pretty good article from Sean Ross at Edison Research today:

http://www.edisonresearch.com/home/...o-and-the-rock-comeback-thats-almost-here.php

Seeing success stories in Sacramento and Atlanta is particularly encouraging when you consider that both markets were bellwethers for the early ’90s Alternative breakthrough. The original 99X and KWOD Sacramento (now AC KBZC) were among the first Top 40-to-Alternative converts in the early ’90s, each of which helped set the Top 40 formatic underpinnings for what followed nationally a few years later.

Sean (Ross) also made mention of the fact that some stations (KROQ especially) had top spins of up to 60 spins a week. Interesting that the CHR philosophy limited lists and faster rotations are crossing many formats.

 

[chrocket87]

^ I know for a time last year, KITS was spinning their top songs around 100 times per week. Now they're playing the tops less, but that struck me as being insane, especially since (judging by Facebook comments) rock listeners complain the most about stuff being overplayed.